Back by popular demand.. WHO CARES?!

[Khaelyn]

<joke>
But I do know better than you! I'm perfect!
</joke>

No, I'm not. I know that, and I'm glad you liked my response (it took forever to write!).

I agree with you, experience is the best and in the end, the only real teacher.

[Rones]

Its the sociological conformist attitude that just sucks and thats what I'm talking about so go ahead and play more of your game statistics and vast experience posts and I'm sure I'll learn something that will help me to become a boring automaton too!

So by that same logic its sociological conformist belief that you need to wear clothing in parties. Majority (hope all) know armor/equipement is neccessary to survive, so does that make us all social conformists? Not at all. If we were wearing armor only to please our peers and society that would be social conformity, but that isn't the case. Armor/equipmenet is required by the mechanics of the game not social conformity. Appropriate sub jobs are no different.

Or in simpler terms: If everyone said not to jump off a bridge because it hurts, is it social conformity too also not jump off the bridge? Social conformity might attempt to guide us in the right path, but underneath there is usually (not always) an underlying factor encouraging that behavior.

If you want more psychology/sociology discussions feel free to pm. I've had several classes in it and quite enjoy the topic.

[Jennessee]

how about you pm me! :p

unfortunately a history assignment has my attention atm

bleh

[DrMrLordX]

Gotta put in my two cents in favor of using the tried-and-true subjob combos.

BLM/WHM 4 evah. It works. Use it, learn it, love it, teach it.

BLM/SMN is potentially interesting because of Shining Ruby, which, I am told, does stack with any shell/protect magic, and adds some %-based bonuses to magic and physical defense. There was a good post on the rdm forum regarding this . . .

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...threadid=32406

here we go, check Apple Pie's remarks regarding rdm/smn

And of course there's Garuda's good-old vacuum armor, which is usually useful to a party. Due to the duration of Shining Ruby, it should be possible to keep Vacuum Armor AND Shining Ruby up at the same time, most of the time.

In theory, BLM/SMN could work. You'd get more INT(by a wee bit), you'd get more mana(not a big deal), you'd get auto-regen after 50(slightly bigger deal), and you'd get Shining Ruby and Vacuum Armor(if you actually have Garuda, that is).

Would all that make up for no cure spells(aside from Garuda's positively awful wannabe-curaga and the relatively unimpressive healing ruby powers of Carbunkle), no divine seal, no silence, no paralyze, no slow, no status-cures, no regen, etc etc? Maybe. At higher levels, that Shining Ruby looks like it could go a long way. +10% physical defense is a lot. However, when the kaka hits the fan, there's not a whole lot you could do to save the party other than good old elemental seal + <insertsleepspellhere> then Escape(if you're in a dungeon, if not . . . warp II 5 times? heh). With a WHM sub, you can hit Manafont and start tossing heals like crazy, breathing new life into the party. Can BLM/SMN do that? I think not.

Bottom line is this: If you want to try blm/smn or some other combo because it "looks fun", don't. You probably won't have a good handle on what you'd have to do with a smn sub in a party to excel, or at least achieve mediocity. If you want to try blm/smn or some other odd job combo because you're carrying out cutting-edge experiments on how to best play your main job, go for it. But before you can do that, you have to be aware of the current standard when it comes to sub-jobs, and the current standard for blm sub-jobs is WHM. Until you have played blm/whm extensively and understand why a WHM sub is useful, you should not try to "break the mold" and play a different sub. Also, if you want smn as your sub, you'll want . . .

a). 30 levels of whm to get blm to 60
b). 60 levels of blm
c). Garuda(at least)
d). 37 levels of smn to take blm/smn to 75

Which means you'd spend the first 60 levels of your blm career using whm as your sub. Whee.

If you really want flexibility with your subjob, I would recommend that you play a red mage rather than a black mage. Red mages can sub blm, whm, smn, and even brd, and "get away with it". Some red mages even sub war, though that is not such a good idea, at least not in a party.

All that being said, though, Rones is pretty much right, especially with that link to Sheila's poingnant post. WAR/WHM indeed. Feh.

[BALD TARU TARU]

BLM/SUM sucks, BLm/rdm best way to go

[Andry]

that was pretty well written, Arguile

[Arguile]

Ok Jennessee, just to add my last 2 cents on this.

Yes, anyone has the choice to play anything they want, and not I or anyone else CAN dictate to them what they should play.

You are behind that computer, the choices you make are yours alone. I can try and influence them, but in the end, you can chose to play anything you want in any way you want.

Now, i have a choice too. I have a choice weather i will take you into my party. I have a choice to team with you for any reason what so ever.

And since this game isn't rocket science, it's actually fairly simple. We know what works BEST. Any combination of jobs CAN work, but when we know what works BEST, why settle for anything else?

That's my choice. I don't, won't, and don't have to.

End of discussion. Play what you want at your own risk is all i will say. Because this is a party oriented game. And in groups, it's not always what YOU want, it's maybe what others want too. Stick to "me me me" and you'll be playing by yourself and will find this game very boring, very fast.

[Shiia]

I am not high lvl blm, but I am pretty high as a rdm. I will give my 2 cents aswell.

First of The big jump in exp from 51+, 55+, 61+, 66+ and finally 71+. The amount of exp required from those starting lines is... simply put SUX. The exp increase per lvl also SUX. We talking about needing 11k at 51-52, 13k from 52-53 and so on. I believe exp needed from 56-57 will increase aswell. Now let me tell you this. Exping long time is NOT FUN, I repeat N O T F U N. You get tired soon enough after the 3rd hour you are almost fed up with it. But in order to lvl you need exp. In order to move on to do some fun stuff, you want to finihs lvling. In order to finish leveling quick, you want to minimise the exping time.

You heard of 4k exp per hour and such yes? Why do you think people want to maximise exp earned per hour? Because they want as little exping session as possible. Some doesn't but I for one certainly don't want to spend 5hours exping... In order to achieve fast exping you need perfect group. This is where unadequate subs kicks in. If your sub is unadequate, performance will drop, which means more time needed to achieve exp. If the exping sessions goes long and every day you soon find out that you are fed up. You had enough. But things like AF will require to have certain level, so you go on.

Support job, as it clearly sais will support your main job. Will strengthen your main. But its limited to half of its potential. People speculate about posiblities in papre which is nice and all. Have tryed for earlier levels and though it was usefull. Which is ok, learning phase. Some people have lvled faster than you, and reached higher levels. They have seen what monsters they are facing, and have came to some sort of conclution of what combination would work. These high lvl people have seen what they are facing, what is best for the subjob, and what benefits can bring to the party. In their case its not simply imagination, but they have actually done it and they are sharing their experience to us. Whether you listen to them or not is your call.

Playing around with jobs is ok, having fun with your friends with funny job combination is ok, but trying to join the party with that combination is questionable. Joining parties with strangers has only 1... yes ONE goal. Exp and lvl. The urge of advancing to the next level, the desire of wanting to learn new spells and equiping next lvl gear, or learn new WS and so on. They seek exp and nothing else, and FAST. Efficiency of party comes on top of anything. Fun, like stated before exping long hours is not fun. And post 51+ you will find loooooooooong exp session simply boring and want to get over with fast. Sad but this is how the world is built.

Sorry for the huge post... I am really bad explaining stuff.

[Icemage]

You can go quite a ways in North American parties with weird and ineffective subjobs up to a point (I know one WHM51 on Midgardsormr who uses a /NIN10 sub for instance)... but sooner or later it will catch up to you.

At level 58, I need 20,000 XP to level. On top of the huge amount of XP needed, the number of players available for parties decreases drastically as you get higher level, and the requirement (yes... REQUIREMENT) is that every functional party at level 51+ has:

1 tank
1 healer
1 support
1 melee damage
+ 2 more jobs which complement the party, based on which jobs are chosen for the other 4 slots. Usually one of the 2 remaining slots is a second melee.

If you are a BLM/SMN you are basically competing with all other players for slot #6 (since BLM cannot serve as any of the first 5 slots). That's a lot of competition.

If your subjob is underlevelled, it becomes harder to get a party.
If your subjob is deemed "weak", it becoms harder to get a party.
If you are known to be bad at playing your job, it becomes much harder to get a party.

Party leaders are not going to choose you as BLM/SMN unless there are no other qualified BLM available, because you have less to offer to most parties. It really is that simple.

The designers may have allowed you to choose any job combination you like, but when it comes down to it, they aren't the ones playing the game - the players are. And what the player base has found is that, while there are a large number of interesting and effective party combinations, certain mixes of jobs, when played correctly, do better overall than others, and thus the best players gravitate towards these combinations.

THAT is what you're going to have to deal with at the higher levels. It's not snobbery. It's not elitism. It's not a desire to crush individuality.

It is an unwillingness to waste any more time than you have to on something that is fundamentally boring.


Icemage

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by Jennessee
Learning from experience is the best teacher, not doing something cuz everyone says its wrong to do is not letting anyone have the freedom to try new things for themselves.

Not a good analogy, but would you let your kids play with knives? I mean, they might cut themselves, but experience is the best teacher, isn't it?

And icemage you're wrong! 20k exp is level 55-56, not level 58

[Celeras]

Its 20k experience from every level 55-60...

[Deodorant]

Eh? Oh ok ... I'd assumed it went up every level ... seems weird that you'd have an equal exp requirement for 5 levels ... obviously I haven't leveled past 55 :spin:

[Regulat0r]

I think I still would rather be a BLM/SUM. Enhance my mains specialty even more which is nukes. Screw the pet im doing it for refresh and extra mp. Oooo or maybe I should sub a brd so when I get higher lvl I can use mages ballad? Hm who knows, doesnt hurt to try it now does it?

If it sucks, owell you learn. However instead of trashing everyones ideas folks why dont you just give them a chance? It doesnt hurt really.

[supertle]

but basically in this game and any MMORPG, the biggest thing is TIME, TIME, and TIME

As you play more and more you will see that TIME is a killer thing in this game, in early levels I thought it was great to save 1k gil to go hunt something instead of just buying it at AH, hunting that 1k gil item would take up 2 hrs or more even sometimes, or like choco quest, go hunt gausabit grass or buy at 600gil each, unless you have all the time in your life and basically no life, i have learn that saving time in this game is so important b/c there's so much to do, bc at higher lvls you can make a lot of gil easily,

ppl telling you not to be a BLM/smn is basically trying to save you time, but hey if u want to be different, great for you, but at lvl50+, good luck finding a party, when i form parties, i will not invite people with odd subjob combination that I believe will not work or offer any benefit to the party unless you are the only one and i already exhausted another 20mins to find someone else first

It is selffish play to have the attitude of "i'll do anything i want as long as i'm having fun", i hate that, those are the people that refuses to renkei often or don't know how to play their jobs correctly or weak equip that are outdated, do whatever you want in Valkurm Dunes and Qufim, try your weird party combinations there, see if it works, if it does, continue on

blm/smn i would probably invite since you're not gimp that much, but if i'm looking for a main tank and i see a PLD/(anything else but WAR), i won't invite period, i don't know much about mage classes that's why i'm here reading a blm forum, i'm a DRK and know all about other melee jobs, i agree with all the ppl above me saying don't play odd job combo that most ppl r telling u it's going to be ineffective, it has nothing to do with conformities,

hmmmm, i think maybe i'll play DarkKnight/Paladin b/c i want to be different even though i'll make myself very gimped in a party, or hey Warrior35/DarkKnight17 which I did try for 5 levels and i was embarassed and outclass with other WAR/nin or WAR/MNK in parties i 've met during that time, they outdmg me easily and held better aggro and took better hits then i did, i quickly gave up that idea, i thought it would've been cool to lvl up war and drk together simultaneously since they both can wear almost the same equip, but u know what, i'm more leeching off xp rather then contributing to a party, when i party, I want to help kill a creature b/c that's fun, not watch others do it for me while i'm gimped

lets look at this in another perspective, if you're a chef in RL, you goto work and you cook right, now if u had to pick a skill that you like to learn to help you become a better chef, you probably pick something like say a Nutritionist, Chef/Nutritionist combo that makes sense, rather then Chef/Computer Programmer, or Chef/FFXI Addict

anyway, it's late, i 'm confusing myself now, it's a game, try not to think so much into it, have fun, learn, but don't pick odd job combo just to do what you want, b/c what you want may be a verrrrry terrible combo and that's when u should abandon the idea, , if it's a combo that would work but just simply not the best/ideal, then that's fine,

also in countless posts i have made and i have said this 1000 times, it's not the JOB combo or Race you pick that makes you shine, but it's YOU the player that makes your char shine, anyone can pick a combo, but you need to understand your job/race very well, eat food, wear proper equip at all lvls, learn party formations, be aware of other job's abilities, renkei, magic burst, etc etc,

odd job combo > an idiot player with ideal combo

[Arc_Ashira]

this sucks i havent been able to post for weeks and now look im totally lost on topic i dont know what has happened if possible please inform me to was has been discussed in the previous three pages of posting thanks alot