The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Technical limitations (read: every time SE has denied extra space because of PS2) should not be an overwhelming source of difficulty in the game. That's extremely poor design.

No, it isn't necessarily so. Chessboards certainly isn't high tech, and its low tech nature places some pretty severe design constraints.

Plus, inventory slot limit isn't an overwhelming source of difficulty in battle situations; calling it that is an overwhelming exaggeration, though.

Where item inventory and storage truly aggravating is the storage of Rare/Ex items. Long time players tend to accumulate heck of whole of gears they don't always use but cannot toss because they need them for other jobs and situations. Some, like Artifacts and Relic gear sets, can be stored at NPC--if one has the complete set. Many, however, cannot be stored at NPC at all, even if one is willing and able to complete an entire set. (Ex: Assault, Salvage, and Abjuration sets.)

But, that's an often cried about issue--same for macro line limits, really--and do not belong in this thread.

Uh, what? Windower Macros are significantly more complicated-- and capable. They are a superior system, not an easier one.

Not that much more complicated, but heck of whole lot more capable due to lack of length limit.

Superior? If a FPS game has a bot scripting system capable of letting anyone capable of logical thinking make bots--bots more capable than human at navigating to weapon/ammo spawn points, targeting, and shotting accurately--would you call that superior system?

In a sense, it's superior. But, fun to play against? I'll pass.

Again, technical limitations (read: every time SE has denied giving players more macro lines or a better macro system because of PS2) should not be a source of difficulty, for any game.

You see the cup half empty, I see it as half full.

There will always be technical limitations--how to use those limitations (how to allocate and budget the limited memeory of PS2 in this case) is just as important as how to use the technical capabilities a platform has. Maybe even more important.

Going to guess that your real complaint is that S-E won't move its customers off of PS2. Smart money says a company should do all it can to stay with its customers; when FFXI players abandon PS2, S-E will go right with them, and not a second before that.

Exactly. That's a sad consequence-- but it also encourages SE to make those things (like hectacomb) either worth considering for a permanent slot, or useful for something else.

Make obsolete difficult to obtain items is dumb move, and reworking those items is a dumb wasting of dev hours.

It's obvious the game was designed with gear swapping in mind or it was a game play which emerged pretty early on--abandoning that and force "perma" or "semi-perma" gear on the entire game would be an exercise in absurdity after years of adding gears intended for swapping to the game.

[Feba]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Inventory slots are still limited

Technical limitations (read: every time SE has denied extra space because of PS2) should not be an overwhelming source of difficulty in the game. That's extremely poor design.

On that note, Windower seriously take out the challenges of macro'ing--

Uh, what? Windower Macros are significantly more complicated-- and capable. They are a superior system, not an easier one. Again, technical limitations (read: every time SE has denied giving players more macro lines or a better macro system because of PS2) should not be a source of difficulty, for any game.

Making a slot swap take a minute would completely destroy the value of of WS gears people spent ages to obtain--

Exactly. That's a sad consequence-- but it also encourages SE to make those things (like hectacomb) either worth considering for a permanent slot, or useful for something else.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Introducing time lag into into equipment swapping would introduce additional game play considerations--that much is true.

That doesn't mean the existing system we have is mindlessly simple. Inventory slots are still limited--every time I go into a big fight, I have to carefully consider if I should bring one more piece of some situational gear I may need, or save room for medicine. That's not even getting into the details of which combination meds and which combination of gears.

And, for those who only uses FFXI's built-in macros and not Windower's "Swap 16 slots, pad with delay, cast spell, insert buffer delay, macro back to standing set" macro system, we have to consider how pressing multiple macros slow down our reactions, and spreading macros across too many pallets can delay us even more.

On that note, Windower seriously take out the challenges of macro'ing--now that really dumbs things down, and turns players into little more than human bots who press buttons "Easy1", "Easy2", "Easy3", etc.

* * *

I can't be the only person who finds the challenge of building macro sets to maximize performance enjoyable, right? Every new piece of gear I get makes me go, "ooooo.... Which macros should I change for this? Do I need to rearrange the layout?"

I can't imagine FFXI with out macro gear switching. Heck, I don't even want to imagine it.

Some of my macros even contain names for gears I won't be able to get until months (if not years) from now.

* * *

Adding a new game mechanism also can introduce emergent properties--you'd be better pretty darn sure those properties which emerge are the players would enjoy. Making a slot swap take a minute would completely destroy the value of of WS gears people spent ages to obtain--don't think most people enjoy fits of rage and cussing from finding out the stuff they spent month--or years--to lay their virtual hands on are good for mannequin display only.

People don't want that. S-E doesn't want to that. And, you wouldn't want players to track you down and lynch you--so you don't want that, either.

[Feba]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Saying "well, you can change gloves quickly, but not boots, and maybe your belt, but not your chest armor" is arbitrary.

No, it isn't. Assigning a different time to each slot is a logical (and more interesting) gameplay mechanic, as it IS easy to change some pieces of clothing quicker than others. It makes gear swapping more intricate than just "wait for this timer to countdown, and do it again"; it's like the difference between a BLM using nukes and an RDM balancing buffs and debuffs.

Arguing "realism" in a game where you can...

There are two giant flaws with this. First of all, it assumes that the ONLY benefit to such a system is realism. Like I said, there is a VERY clear gameplay benefit to it as well. Secondly, all of your examples are FANTASTICAL things. Changing clothes/armor is mundane. Unless you're using a magic spell to change (such as as Lamia Strip; which I'll also say is an absolutely pointless move with current gear swapping mechanics), there's nothing amazing about it. Fighting gods, teleportation? Yes, very much so.

It's painting yourself into a hypothetical corner

Really, Murphie, do you ever try to win arguments, or do you just go "Statement. Ha, I win! No, doesn't matter if there's anything wrong with my statement, I said I win, so I win."? Because, quite honestly, I can't remember you ever seriously arguing a point without resorting to that within a few posts.

[Murphie]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Saying "well, you can change gloves quickly, but not boots, and maybe your belt, but not your chest armor" is arbitrary. Arguing "realism" in a game where you can teleport long distances, fight the gods, leap into the air to lesson mob enmity, etc. is pretty stupid. It's painting yourself into a hypothetical corner that you can't get out of. I know you'll disagree and profess to be right, because that's what you do, but it doesn't make it any more true.

So, either change it so that nothing can be swapped in-combat, or leave it where everything can be. Otherwise? Arbitrary.

[Feba]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Putting arbitrary penalties on armor swapping based on the slot swapped for realism's sake would suck.

It's not arbitrary, it's logical. Unless you can change in and out of incredibly complex suits of armor in a few seconds. It's not even for realism's sake, it has it's own benefits in terms of gameplay. As it is, the point is to get the most powerful armor you can in a very specific situation, and then spend a lot of money to increase your storage space so you can hold all of it. There's no benefit to planning out, balancing, or really even putting any thought into your equipment, except weapons.

I have no doubts that it would be a huge change, and one SE would probably be too afraid to go through with. It would make a lot of people angry. Overall, though, I think it would make gameplay not only more believable, but more interesting and slightly more challenging.

[Murphie]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Putting arbitrary penalties on armor swapping based on the slot swapped for realism's sake would suck. Gear swapping is a fact of FFXI. Changing it now would cause too many problems. Before anyone jumps the gun, I'm not saying that you can't change anything about the game. But changing a fundamental game mechanic like that would have consequences.

[dirtyclown]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

I don't know if this is a subject discussed often, but the disparities between Def and Vit in use against various mobs seems to be rather prevalent, and something that S-E has yet to be asked about.

It's a subject of interest in the Paladin forum for obvious reasons. I'd like to see those two stats fixed up so we can actually make use of the defensive gear. I like using a DD oriented setup, but if it was possible to get a bunch of damage reduction by raising defense and vitality I'd strike a balance between the two and just carry random pieces for special occasions. Currently I run around with two complete sets of equipment save for the main and sub slot gear, and every day that goes by it seems like I use the defensive setup less and less.

[Aksannyi]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Let me be the first to say that I would hate that. :p

[Feba]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

but encouraged any other time.

There are two probable reasons for this.

First of all, when you change gear, your character becomes invisible for a moment, and people targeting you lose their lock. This isn't a problem for monsters, but could make it impossible or nearly impossible for someone to fight you in a PVP situation.

Secondly, PVP was implemented long after PvE, so SE could make changes there that they want to, but would be afraid of players crying "nerf!" if they tried it on the main game.

I personally would be very happy to see the gear swapping penalty changed to be "you cannot change this gear slot again for x time" instead of the 'you can't do crap now' that it is now; and put through the entire game. It doesn't make sense that you can strip out of a suit of battle armor, and put on a whole new one; even for a fantasy game. It would also be easy to set it so that different slots have different penalties-- it would take quite a bit of time to change between different body pieces, but changing your weapon or gloves wouldn't be as bad.

[BurningPanther]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

I'm not gonna lie I disagree with the whole concept of macro-induced gear swapping--the idea of magically changing clothes and accessories mid-battle seems rather asinine. It also breeds the sort of min-maxing attitude that is both a blessing and curse in this game.

However, I fully recognize that it's a cornerstone of the game. There's a lot that would not be achievable without it. As such, it always eluded me as to why gear-swapping is penalized in PvP, but encouraged any other time.


But anyway.



I don't know if this is a subject discussed often, but the disparities between Def and Vit in use against various mobs seems to be rather prevalent, and something that S-E has yet to be asked about.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Honestly, I just like to see a new breed of LS developed, one that lets the system track points and kills rather than the players, for each section of endgame aside from Assault and Campaign since they already have thier point systems.

Let's say you go kill Faffhog and the Ridill drops, those with this specilized Guild Linkshell would see the Ridill transferred from the treasure pool to a guild NPC in, let's say, Jeuno. The system tracks the points of all members DKP-style and jobs eligible for the Ridill are allowed to make a bids on it at the NPC until there's a winner.

If the LS decides they want to sell non-RE drops, a vote takes place at the NPC and its placed on the Auction House automatically if the vote of the majority is for that. The gil from the sales are left with the NPCs, where members could withdraw the gil, though only in ratio to the current membership and what's in the bank.

This removes the possibility of a leader bank-stealing or lotting out of greed. People can only bid on basis of what their currently set job can use. Given that this would take place in a city, changing to the job of proper level to bid wouldn't be an issue had you levelled a job.

Just imagine all the Dynamis drops that wouldn't completely go to waste under such a system. All the currency neatly filed away on NPC.

The only way to lose any of this gear or gil would be to disband the LS, which would only happen in a fit of rage or actual disbandment. When this would happen, no one would get anything, which is a fair means of keeping leaders in check.

[MrMageo]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

If we geared ourselves so that we really were the jack of all trades, master of none, we'd be the master of standing around in Whitegate with no invites.

Actually, I take that back. We'd be the master of standing around in Jeuno, because we wouldn't get high enough to stand around in Whitegate.

I had a chuckle.

It is true A RDM needs to gear to maximize its downfalls in its weak skills. Does this mean you need to carry 4-5 sets of gear with you every where you go. Not overly people do and they tend to be the ones complaining about Inventory.

It is perfectly acceptable to leave a nuking or melee set behind when you know you will be working as a main heal. It is acceptable to leave behind a Healing or melee set in favor of maximizing potential if your going the nuke/support route. It is also fine to leave behind a nuke or healing set if you are going to be meleeing.

Our job is very situational and it is very rare that we will be asked to change our role in specific instances. We may be asked to fire a couple nukes from time to time while main healing. We may be asked to fire a couple cures while meleeing. These secondary functions are not required to be 100% ffective all the time because in reality we are supporting another job who is taking care of them to begin with.

Priority on sets you should have at all times is an enfeebling set and INT set and a MND set. hMP sets after meriting convert are very over rated and often redundant. A max HP/MP for 1:1 converts is much more efficient. (Besides alot of the gear we use for said sets are acctually imbeded in the gear choices for other sets so having its own category is redundant.)

[TheGrandMom]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

I'm oddly immature for someone who has kids.

If I had a nickel for everytime someone told me that (especially my mother), I'd have the Jag I've been mooning over.

Just because we are supposed to set good examples for our children does not mean we necessarily have to.

So the other day I said into ls, "My 2 yr old grandson is so cute when he says certain things so I taught him to say 'Damn Women' and its so freakin funny!" Then I had to endure some 16 yr old know-it-all say what a bad parent I was blah blah blah. LOL Ah, it's great to be a grandmother!

[Shinosuke]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

When it comes to a true Guild system, like the very first post described, I am SO TOTALLY FOR THAT!!!!!
I have longed to see something like this in FFXI. I think Square should take some hints and ideas from .hack//GU. Especially the Guild/Linkshell base/home thing, like the way mog houses work. But for LS's. ^_^