The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

[Malacite]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

I'm still waiting for that Canoe they promised with CoP >_>p


And Synthesis & H.E.L.M. update {Can I have it?}

[Yellow Mage]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

As for gear swaps, leave them the hell alone. They're not detrimental to *anything*(outside of pvp which will be explained in a minute) in this game and they're not just a tool of the "elitest" or such. It's a combat tactic used by those who want to excel at the game in any given situation. It's something players have to put thought into and work towards (through obtaining their gear and mixing/matching to get the best results) that lets them stand out from players who *don't* want to put in the extra effort. And with so many abilities and actions that are effected by certain stats, it would be an absolute waste to not allow players to switch gear.

This

As for why you can't do it in PvP, well you ever try to cast cure on a thf going into their SaTa gear? Now try casting offensive spells on someone who's constantly changing their equipment. You'll notice it just doesn't work. If you could gear swap in PvP, it would *destroy* all mages, including Rdm, because they wouldn't get any spells off. In PvP, SE is making you think about your gear, in both offensive and defensive stats, so you'll have to settle on the 'best' all around gear with no min/maxing, leaving PvP up to player's skill, not their gear.

. . . then this.

Why does it make sense to be able to have all the best gear readily available to you for every action, to the point where not seizing the opportunity to do so is considered a waste, or even gimp, and then in another situation, you're required to actually think about which gear set is over all the best for once? I mean, why can't it be the latter all the time, without being considered gimp?

Sure, the problem isn't the fact that we're allowed to gear-swap at all like good little munchkins, it's the fact that S-E doesn't let us do it well enough! Curse them for the PvP penalty and macro restrictions!

It has been made well the point that there would be great backlash for such an adjustment, but points have also been made on how it's not exactly a "cornerstone of the game," really only being needed by player standards.

I guess if almost everybody has the same standard, then said standard isn't elitest, no matter how ridiculous it seems on face value, right? So long as it's effective? So long as it's "efficient?" It's not being spoiled or elitest at all!

But, I digress. I already had tried to make a point earlier on on how continuing argument on this one point is off-topic at best. I will not argue this point further.

. . . Unless someone who isn't on my ignore list yet says something really stupid on the matter . . .



So, to get back on topic, here's another thing: S-E always romanticizes their non-combat systems in press releases, such as Crafting, H.E.L.M., and so on . . . seriously, look up Crafting on the Playonline official site. I'll give a direct quote later . . .

But, still, they are far too romanticized when, in reality, they're just gigantic, overly complex and frustrating time-and-gilsinks. Combat often really is the only way to go, even when it isn't.

{Ninja} Edit:

Crystal Synthesis:

Through crystal synthesis, players can create a fantastic variety of items, many of which are unavailable in shops. The system is flexible and lets players experiment to make the items they want.

Fishing:

There are many fine fishing spots scattered throughout Vana'diel. By increasing your fishing skill, you can catch valuable fish and other items. And, any fish you catch can be cooked into a variety of dishes!

Haven’t you ever thought “You know, it’d be really nice if I could do that”?




A special feature in FINAL FANTASY XI called “synthesis” can make these dreams come true.

Synthesis consists of a countless number of recipes where you combine several items with a crystal to make a new item.

Synthesis Procedures

All right. Let’s try out synthesis ourselves. First of all, we need to obtain the necessary materials for synthesis.

Crystal + Items → New Item

If you have enough skill and luck, you can synthesize higher-quality items than usual and, depending on the item, higher quantities of them with each synthesis.

Also, by using special crystals, you can even synthesize items engraved with your own character name.

Guilds

You will find a total of eight kinds of synthesis-and guilds corresponding to each discipline in all areas of Vana’diel.

Adventurers participating in synthesis can receive support from any of the available guilds.

You can receive the following benefits from the NPCs at each guild:
• Learn synthesis recipes
• Buy and sell materials and synthesized items
• Receive support to improve your synthesis success rate

Polish your synthesis skills and experience the joy of making items yourself!

* * *

• ”I’d like to try out synthesis for myself.”
• ”I’d like to give an item to a friend as a present.”
• ”I want to make money by selling items to people who need synthesis materials.”

If you’ve been thinking any of the above, feel free to use the following information to help in your search for materials!

Mining

Use a pickaxe at the Mining Points or Excavation Points that are scattered throughout mines or caverns to obtain ores and minerals. Items obtained through mining are generally used as materials in smithing, goldsmithing, alchemy, and bonecrafting.

Harvesting

Use a sickle at Harvesting Points found in fields to obtain plants and other greenery. Items obtained through harvesting are generally used as materials in cooking and clothcraft.

Lumbering

Use a hatchet at Logging Points found at the base of trees to obtain lumber. Items obtained through lumbering are generally used as materials in woodworking.

Gardening

In your Mog House, you can garden using potted plants, crystals, seeds, and seedlings. Many items may be obtained depending on your combination of plants, crystals, seeds, and seedlings. You can obtain anything from synthesis materials to chocobo feed.

Fishing

As long as you have a fishing rod and bait, you can fish anywhere there is water. Fishing rods and the bait required will differ depending on whether you’re fishing in freshwater or seawater, as well as the type of fish you are attempting to catch. Your catches are generally used as materials in cooking and alchemy, but you may obtain things other than fish, such as items found in fishes’ bellies.

Chocobo Digging

By carrying Gysahl Greens and riding on a chocobo, you can make your chocobo dig into the ground. One bunch of Gysahl Greens will be used each time you make your chocobo dig. Items obtained greatly differ from area to area.

Combat

You can also obtain materials for synthesis by defeating monsters. Be sure to think about which monsters or beastmen you will have to defeat to obtain the items you want and then select your main and sub-jobs accordingly.

As long as you have the drive and willpower, you can easily collect materials.

All right! Let’s get started!

. . .

You get the idea.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Re: Windower macros:

Spoken like someone who hasn't really used it. It can do some very complicated things, even if most people use it to just add infinite lines.

You're right in that I've never used Windower's macros system.

However, I've gone through its command list, and read through a few example macro scripts, including nested scripting using one script to launch multiple scripts. Though I don't know the intricacies (and won't, unless I actually write and use the scripts), I'm fairly confident I have a good general idea of what the system is capable of.

Windower's macro system really isn't that complicated. However, the advantages it affords is borderline cheating, IMO, which is the sole reason I've never touched them. (When I was using Windower, I also turned off default plug-ins which give distance, party TP, etc.) What I wanted was, 1) put FFXI in a window, 2) a way to take prettier screen shots, 3) able to input Japanese--not gain any game play advantage over my fellow players. (Sadly, I was too afraid to make much use of IME; GMs can probably easily tell if I'm on an English client, and thus shouldn't be able to type in Japanese.)

On that note, two issues which still bug me about FFXI client:
A) Not able to take screenshot at full resolution, and not able to include chat log in screenshot.
B) Not able to input Japanese on NA client, while JP client users can freely type in English.

[Murphie]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

FFXI isn't going anywhere for at least another 5+ years. Anyone who suggests otherwise really doesn't understand the way MMOs work.

[Brielle]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

You should be happy that you have the option to switch your gear out while in combat, in World of Warcraft most classes are only able to switch out weapons and nothing else when they have engaged a monster. I say most classes because (for those who may not have played) you have to have special abilities that pull you out of combat, and those do not always work. A perfect example would be Ragnaros battle in WoW. Unless you have amazing damage and healing gear, everyone has to wear rather mundane fire resistance armour that is not able to be switched out until the fight is over. Plenty of players have tried to debate this game mechanic with Blizzard, but they have seemingly stood by their decision to not change this.

Also, saying that FFXI is going to be dead in two years is laughable. Do you not think people can play more than one video game at a time? Even if Square-Enix were to release another MMO, that does not mean they are going to toss FFXI in the graveyard. I am not trying to be overly critical, but I do wonder where people get their information/statistics from sometimes.

[Armando]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Regarding the FFXI macro system vs Windower system: in my opinion, the real culprit is the unresponsive UI. Being restricted to 6 lines per macro wouldn't be an issue if I could fire off macros as quickly as I can press keys. We have so much macro space that you could afford to have 5 macros of equip swaps for a single task, especially since you can set up "shortcut" macros to take you to a different macro pallette/set and back. But pressing 5 gear macros, the macro for the action you want, and 5 other gear macros to return to your normal gear set would easily take you 3 seconds or more.

[Kailea]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

there is a bigger problem then graphics, even if the graphics where updated for PC/PS3/360. One thing needs to be fixed first, the game needs to be recoded to run off the CPU/GPU instead of being heavy on CPU usage. It would make the game run alot better on PS3/360/PC

[Murphie]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

No, it isn't. Assigning a different time to each slot is a logical (and more interesting) gameplay mechanic, as it IS easy to change some pieces of clothing quicker than others. It makes gear swapping more intricate than just "wait for this timer to countdown, and do it again"; it's like the difference between a BLM using nukes and an RDM balancing buffs and debuffs.


There are two giant flaws with this. First of all, it assumes that the ONLY benefit to such a system is realism. Like I said, there is a VERY clear gameplay benefit to it as well. Secondly, all of your examples are FANTASTICAL things. Changing clothes/armor is mundane. Unless you're using a magic spell to change (such as as Lamia Strip; which I'll also say is an absolutely pointless move with current gear swapping mechanics), there's nothing amazing about it. Fighting gods, teleportation? Yes, very much so.



Really, Murphie, do you ever try to win arguments, or do you just go "Statement. Ha, I win! No, doesn't matter if there's anything wrong with my statement, I said I win, so I win."? Because, quite honestly, I can't remember you ever seriously arguing a point without resorting to that within a few posts.

Whatever makes you feel better, Feba. Have fun being right.

[Ziero]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

But this probably won't happen because FFXI is virtually on life support. This will most likely be the final 2 years of service, and its not financially viable to provide such a large update if there is no plan to keep this around (another MMO has been in planing for 1-2 years now).

...what? No. Stop spouting crap you have no idea what you're talking about. FFXI is one of the biggest, strongest, healthiest MMOs out there today. Falling only behind WoW, which dwarfs every other MMO evar in subscriptions, and Lineage(iirc) which has a mainly Korean Player base. Hell, it was just last week that they announced they had half a million accounts and that one of the 30+ servers was too crowded to allow any more people to join it. This isn't life support, this is thriving.

As for gear swaps, leave them the hell alone. They're not detrimental to *anything*(outside of pvp which will be explained in a minute) in this game and they're not just a tool of the "elitest" or such. It's a combat tactic used by those who want to excel at the game in any given situation. It's something players have to put thought into and work towards (through obtaining their gear and mixing/matching to get the best results) that lets them stand out from players who *don't* want to put in the extra effort. And with so many abilities and actions that are effected by certain stats, it would be an absolute waste to not allow players to switch gear.

As a thf, I switch out *every*(barring weapons) single piece of gear every 30 seconds when things are going right. It keeps me busy as I'm maximizing my potential and increasing my effectiveness. My inventory isn't limiting me in any way during combat (storage during fights isn't the main problem with inventory spacing) and the current Macro system doesn't hinder me at all. Hell, at most, for any given action, I need to press two buttons to change every single piece of non-weapon gear I have. Oh the horror.

But to take away my ability to equip my dex/agi gear for SaTa, then change to my Acc gear when the mob has high eva, then go to haste gear when that Eva is dropped, then go to Eva gear when I'm pulling, would hinder my job a *hell* of a lot more then it would help it. The only people you'd be helping by removing or penalizing people for gear swapping are the people who already don't do it.

As for why you can't do it in PvP, well you ever try to cast cure on a thf going into their SaTa gear? Now try casting offensive spells on someone who's constantly changing their equipment. You'll notice it just doesn't work. If you could gear swap in PvP, it would *destroy* all mages, including Rdm, because they wouldn't get any spells off. In PvP, SE is making you think about your gear, in both offensive and defensive stats, so you'll have to settle on the 'best' all around gear with no min/maxing, leaving PvP up to player's skill, not their gear.

So if you don't want to gear swap, don't. But don't be upset when the person who does outperforms you. SE shouldn't have to penalize the good to appease the bad.

[Akashimo]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Sometimes, I wonder if you read, or just look at words.

That could apply to a bunch of us here

[Feba]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

This route would be more of a waste of resources than the previous one.

Sometimes, I wonder if you read, or just look at words.

[MrMageo]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

LOL PS2 can't handle a graphical update, hell mine can barely run it smoothly as is. SE is going to make a decision soon if this game is going to last any longer.

1. Revamp game re-release for xbox360/PC/PS3 dump PS2

PS2 is really holding back the potential graphic power of this game, XBOX360/PS3 support High Def (im not big on computers so I dont know about them I would imagine so though.) If you wanted to get super techy about it we could see graphics on par with CGI from FF12 via the PS3 for sure.

But this probably won't happen because FFXI is virtually on life support. This will most likely be the final 2 years of service, and its not financially viable to provide such a large update if there is no plan to keep this around (another MMO has been in planing for 1-2 years now).

2. They offer a gigantic softeware update supporting 2 seperate graphic options again pushing aside the PS2. Offer a High Def service to boost the graphics. Offer an expansion to other areas of the game.

This route would be more of a waste of resources than the previous one. To be honest I think SE is proviing its last hurrah this year with its expansion and job updates. We will be looking at service for beta (SEMMO#2) in japan in the fall-winter of 09.

It is SE's chance to set the bar for MMO's instead of trying to play catchup, and SE has never been one to play catch up in the world of RPG's and I don't see them bowing to WoW any longer

[Feba]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Its almost like making an expansion available to only PC players, then not giving the access at all to PS2 players.

No, it's not.

Read http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/vid...but-won-t.html

[MrMageo]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Actually it would be more logical to just leave it as is and work on a better system for it's future online consideration. The big bonus that FFXI has over other MMO's is its vast platform capability. I don't know of any other game that can be played across 4 different platforms in the same locale. (PC/PS2/X360/PS3).

This makes changing one thing hard to do because in a sense the game will need to remain the same for all these systems that use it. Changing one thing on PC will mean they would have to rewrite something from PS2 or remove it entirely. They will then have to support 2 games instead of one.

Its almost like making an expansion available to only PC players, then not giving the access at all to PS2 players.

I find the macro system to be very well put together. I have yet to have any problems with it. To be honest FFXI is a rare gem in the online world, it offers imo the best of what it means to be a MMO. While we can nit pick at little things like PVP and Macros, the most devastating thing in this game right now is the Job and Party imbalances. (Ill leave it at that since I don't want to push into the realm of normally talked about things.)

[Feba]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Chessboards certainly isn't high tech, and its low tech nature places some pretty severe design constraints.

Which isn't what I said. I did not say low tech is bad, I said that technical limitations should not be a source of difficulty. For example, Super Mario World is a great game, what it could do was limited by the hardware of the time, but the player was not challenged from some hardware problem the developers couldn't compensate for. What I'm saying would be like if, due to poor manufacturing facilities, you could only make one shape of chess piece, and you had to remember which ones did what role and who's team they were on. I think we can both agree that would be a poor implementation of chess.

Not that much more complicated,

Spoken like someone who hasn't really used it. It can do some very complicated things, even if most people use it to just add infinite lines.

If a FPS game has a bot scripting system capable of letting anyone capable of logical thinking make bots--bots more capable than human at navigating to weapon/ammo spawn points, targeting, and shotting accurately--would you call that superior system?

If FFXI was based on reflexes instead of strategic thinking, you might have a point. If I was advocating bots and not scripts, you might have a point. We're talking Apples and Spaghetti here, though.

As it is, the FFXI macro system is a technical hurdle to the player; instead of helping the player as it should. Allowing people to have more complex macros isn't going to make them perfect, it's not going to let your RDM go make a sammich while you're leveling, it's not going to do anything but make their interface more organized and less of a hassle. I'll say on this the same I said on customizable UIs: do you honestly think that if you went up against another player who was using them in some form of competition, they would be better because of the tool, where you would fail? If you can honestly say that someone else having a half decent macro system is going to make the game harder on you, firstly, Windower already did that, and you're still here; secondly, you're just an awful player to begin with. Tools make the game better-- not players worse.

There will always be technical limitations--how to use those limitations (how to allocate and budget the limited memeory of PS2 in this case) is just as important as how to use the technical capabilities a platform has.

Agreed. Learning how to push the limits is very important. However, MAKING THE GAME HARDER OR WORSE because of those limits is a very, very bad idea. That is what making the challenge in equipment "who can hold the most" instead of "who can plan ahead the best" does.

Going to guess that your real complaint is that S-E won't move its customers off of PS2.

Absolutely not. There is a very large portion of people playing on PS2. My real complaint is that SE won't move beyond the PS2. It's perfectly possible for them to make improvements to other clients (like customizable UIs, improved Macros, seamless zoning, improved graphics, etc.) without dumping the PS2 client. Look at http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/vid...but-won-t.html , it might refresh your memory.

it was a game play which emerged pretty early on-

This, obviously if gear swapping was intended to be a major mechanic they would've added a way to swap more than one per line (for macros sake), and likely would've devoted more memory space to gobbie bag.

Again, I realize that it would be a huge change to the game, and I don't think it's something that 'desperately' needs to be done, I'm just saying that it's one of FFXI's flaws.

FFXI, overall, is a great product. When I critique it, it's almost always because it could be better (and because I care about it, and want it to be better), not because there's something horrible ruining the game and making it unfun.