new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

[TenchiHawkwing]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

BRP, I agree with alot of what you're saying man, but could you kinda... tone it down a bit. You seem angry, I mean you usually flame a bit in your discussions, but you're going a bit overboard here.

Also, what good is FFXI's variety in it's content if alot of it goes ignored/unknown. They might as well not even bother, and focus on the things players DO want. Or continue to make the same kind of content that they've been making, yet add some kind of incentive to do it.

I've done alot of quests that I found to be "useless" but then, I find Quests/Missions to be the most fun in the game. I'm in the minority there though. I'd probably be less satisfied with the game if they didn't have such content variety, but... for the masses it's just not the case.

I don't know where I'm really going with this, but I just wanted to add something to this thread.

Honestly, at this point in time I don't think too much is going to change with the old content (as long as it's been the way it is) and unless SE starts adding better weapons/armor than Ridill/Adaberk, etc... nothing is really going to change. I think SE knows what's going on at endgame, but they're looking for a quick fix to solve it, rather than a rehaul, and it's just not going to work.

[Legal Fish]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

I'd like to comment on Grizzle, the amount of end-game content is pretty good. The fact its either too easy, too unrewarding, or too exclusive is the problem. Its the mentality like Task is why this game is going to continue to drop in population.

[Legal Fish]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

You have no clue. You are a fanboy. One of the biggest fanboys I've ever seen. I did write a lot about this, but for some reason it backspaced unprovoked so it was lost. I will have to sum this up.

End-games have progression. All games have this. FFXI has it. And when you say it doesn't, at least be smart enough not to say in the next paragraph "FFXI has a lot of good progression".

WoW isn't as easy as you think it is. FFXI has more gameplay in the lower levels, but it doesn't make WoW any 'easier' just because it doesn't. You seem to forget how shitty, incomplete, and ect FFXI was on its first year. Its a couple years old now and WoW is just about its equal on many things, a MMORPG thats getting its first expansion soon. WoW has better end-game progression, FFXI has more variety of content.

However the difference is the people who makes the game. Blizzard knows what its players thinks and it knows its game. FFXI has not a fucking clue about what its players thinks and probably knows just as much about its game. They add content that looks like it hasn't even been playtested... look at all melee vs melee inbalanced being based on attack speed. How could they not notice how powerful the dual wield and martial art trait and dual wield trait items make players? How could they not have been prepared with Ninja being used as a tank, yet gave them the ability to ignore any attack on a short recast. The fact is, SE just fucking blows at running because they don't know their game or their players. They are able to create some unique and good things like Limbus and Assault, but are horrible at making items(set bonuses were done so poorly, Hydra's drops) and how items drop(CoP Dynamis, just about anything in CoP, but Limbus). They can make something good then totally forget about... Fellowship. The fact they refuse to go back and fix older content(something Blizzard often) will be their downfall. There are many players who know more about this game than SE and can run it better.

Anyway, how about playing WoW a decent? Don't even talk anymore... you only hurt people who share a similar point, while looking like someone who doesn't play FFXI.

[DakAttack]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

Actually, Everquest has been going now for almost eight years and it already had more endgame content at the end of its second year than FFXI has now. Until the last few years they adopted the archaic viewpoint that competition for spawns and the equivalent of HNMs was to be encouraged until they wised up and, like WoW, made their endgame raiding content instanced. Now, rather than subscribing to the view that players causing strife amongst themselves slows progression and prolongs subscriptions they have the more enlightened view of time invested should be rewarded with an unhampered opportunity to test your skill in fighting monsters rather than claiming them.

Instances are nice and all, but they're just too overused and they make the game too easy. Every single instance in World of Warcraft falls down to clearing one area, moving onto the next, and clearing that area while watching for patrols that somehow slip behind you. I just don't see that as being condusive to an engaging experience.

Now, it's my stance that players turned NMs into what they are today. I believe SE had in mind something more along the lines of what World of Warcraft has, but they went wrong in a few places. They made NMs rather rare, and their drops extremely valuable and unique whereas in World of Warcraft NM spawns are numerous and plenty and usually drop something green and occasionally something blue or purple. Their table of drops are so vast that camping it for any one item would be almost useless.

Unfortunately Blizzard's method waters it all down to a degree where the notorious monsters aren't all that intersting. I suppose calling them 'named mobs' works better, because that's all they are, normal mobs that have a semi-unique name. I always loved discussions about notorious monsters as if they were something much more than just an enemy that pops and has valuable drops. SE managed to place importance on them, but a bit too much in my opinion.

Sorry for comparing them, but I think it illustrates my point better. Blizz's HNMs are called 'outdoor raids' if I remember correctly, but I don't think anybody has managed to beat them yet?

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

Competition is competition, but if you want it all handed to you by all means switch to World of Warcraft.

Actually, Everquest has been going now for almost eight years and it already had more endgame content at the end of its second year than FFXI has now. Until the last few years they adopted the archaic viewpoint that competition for spawns and the equivalent of HNMs was to be encouraged until they wised up and, like WoW, made their endgame raiding content instanced. Now, rather than subscribing to the view that players causing strife amongst themselves slows progression and prolongs subscriptions they have the more enlightened view of time invested should be rewarded with an unhampered opportunity to test your skill in fighting monsters rather than claiming them.

[DakAttack]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

I don't think there's a single game out there that has a solid end game. Players will always become bored with it upon their own accord, and then they'll complain that there's just not enough of it. It's called end game for a reason, because it's the end of the game. You can start over, or you can just sit there doing the same thing over and over. No more progression.

SE has done a lot to continue player progression at end game, and people continue to complain. Most players are content with starting over and contributing to end game on the side, but others feel the need to burn it out as fast as possible. You can't expect them to add more, or change what they already have, because you're bored with it or because you're not good enough to get yourself a slice of it. Competition is competition, but if you want it all handed to you by all means switch to World of Warcraft.

If the players are zooming to 75 and skipping all the quests in between that's their problem, not SE's, they don't have to care. If you're giving SE your money they must be doing something right.

[Legal Fish]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

Hydra, Dynamis added in CoP, the various latent effects that were added in the last patch update which are just flat out bad, the fact the new Beastmen HNMs drop nothing(being tied to besieged is not good enough), the horrible set bonuses that comes with wearing the full set of armor gained through Assault, and ect prove they are not good at it, they only get lucky.

Its laughable the way you allow your point be to seperate the 'end-game' and 'everything else'. You are not putting much thought into this. First off, one the biggest problems with the end-game is job balance. Every job balance fix has effected low/mid-levels just as much as it has high-levels. A change to make 2-handed weapons more attractive would effect a level 30 Warrior greatly. Second, every level 20 and every level 40, and every 60 will hit 70+ unless that player goes out of his way not to. Most low level players care more about getting better gear and leveling up(just like level 75s) than they do anything else, which brings me to my next point.

You make it seem like there isn't enough content below... lets say level 65. You couldn't be more wrong. There are sooo many things low levels can do, but for the most part, decide not to do. I'm not even talking about BCNMs, but ENMs, Fellowship, many many quests such as Bait and Switch(very helpful for CoP) and The Big One(cap45 escort quest), and ect. Garrison? Expeditionary Forces? Eco-Warrior? I spend a lot of my time going through Windurst/San d'Oria/Bastok(while everyone is at Aht Urhgan), and what do I see? More like what I don't see. No more shouts of anything. No one conquest based linkshells. Back when I was 30 there would be at least three-four Eco-Wariror shouts a week, there would be intense rivalry between nation linkshells as they did EFs everyweek, I can't vouch for Garrison, but I doubt its nearly as popular these days. It disgusts me how many players, of all level ranges, don't even know what a "Brenner" is. Or how many think there is only one sub-job quest. Honesty, I doubt anyone could count more than handful who experienced low and med level content as much as I have, so I do believe if anyone can call it less important than end-game content, it would be me. Until you are capped on quests, missions, done all EF zones, done all garrison zones, explored every inch of all the maps, and talked to every NPC in the game, don't speak as if you know much content are in the game.

What do low levels care about? Progression... may it be level or gear, and very rarely missions. Why should they care about story? Anyone who cares but is too much of a sheep to organize anything can just read the whole thing on the internet(incomplete mind you, but how would they know?). When the current population of FFXI looks at missions today they see "lots of cutscenes, sky access, sea access, ENM access, Ouryu access, Bahamut access, Divine Might access, Apoc Neigh access, Limbus access". Look at the events taking place this year. They are about 1/3 as populated as they used to be. They are only getting better and more creative, but are widely ignored for the most part.

So what the hell "low-levels" are you talking about? All I see are people playing "Catch-Up". They know this gear has been out for awhile, so instead of trying to experience everything that the first few generations of players did, they are trying to be at 75 asap, totally making all the crap SE puts in the game ignored for the most part. Of course there are exceptions, if I made my character today, I would be one of them, however the exceptions population is much smaller than the population of end-gamers. The end-game population will only grow as most people are doing everything in their power to gain it. At 75, they might start caring about all the stuff they missed, but most won't. Most will level other jobs, many will join Dynamis and Sky LSes, almost none will ever get to engage against Fafnir. Many will quit within 6 months.

Most people who quit level 1 to 15, are people who quit because they can't stand the AI or have no idea what they are doing so it naturally bores them. Most people who quit 15 to 65 quit because of the grind, most don't even know half the things they can do and only look forward to the end-game. If SE added a quest that gives exp- oh wait, what am I saying, they already have, multiple times, but continueing- it would be ignored for the most part. If they added a quest with interesting story and flashy cutscenes, but only awards 1000 gil, it would be ignored for the most part, save some bored level 75s.

Moving on to another point.

You can not ignore the fact that the amount of level 75s are dropping while the amount of level 30s are increasing, and while the whole FFXI population is dropping. The 'end-game' is such a small population of the game because so many people are quitting. Lets not forget to add the huge growth of gil sellers who have universally changed from 10-20 lvl1-50s to 50-60 lvl75s(of course many level 1 to 30s still exist, which explains why there also so many of thoses), which in my opinion is causing the the end-game to look even more populated. More and more gilsellers will reach level 75 and more and more legit players will quit, and less noticable this change will become to SE.

[Karinya]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

This is incorrect. At least since mid-way of CoP, they do more for the end-game than they do for any other area of play. However they are bad at it.

No, they *were* bad at it. If you look at the recent high-level content like Limbus and Assault, it is much more free of the problems that characterize the kings.

First, of course, being their appalling total lack of scalability. The more people run Assault, the more points they get (total, of course, not per person). The more people run Limbus, the more coins and other rewards they get. The more people run Dynamis, the more AF they get. Until Ulli started being monopolized, the more LSes run sky, the more stuff they get. The more people farm KSes, the more KS99s they can do and the more stuff they get. The more people do ENMs, the more stuff they get.

The more people camp a king, the more people just completely wasted 3+ hours of their lives. He'll pop when he feels like it (or not at all) and the amount of player effort directed toward him is completely irrelevant. The more people are trying, the *worse* off each of them is. That's why some of them try to beat the odds with cheating - mpk, bots, or whatever.

Bots are only the symptom. This lack of scalability is the real problem. The difficulty of the fights, or the time investment, are one thing (although many people think the kings aren't that hard anyway). But the way one linkshell's attempts to fight them *directly interferes* with another's is what creates drama and ill-will. Players turn against each other because the design of that content *makes* them turn against each other - if one linkshell gets him, everyone else doesn't.


What some players (including me) can't understand is why, after showing that they were aware of the scalability problem and successfully avoiding it in half a dozen different ways in adding new content, they *still* won't fix the old content that is worse than ever because of the expansion and leveling-up of the playerbase.

[Yeargdribble]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

This is incorrect. At least since mid-way of CoP, they do more for the end-game than they do for any other area of play. However they are bad at it.

I agree that in relative terms they care a lot of about endgame. The put more effort and content in aimed at endgame players rather than mid level players. ToAU proved that pretty vividly as there is very little to do for people below level 60 in new areas and last I checked, merit point additions don't have an effect on low-mid level players either.

What Fish says is true. They care (relatively) a lot about endgame, but they suck at it. They are not very attached to that playerbase. While they will support sites like Allakhazam that are owned by IGE, they will not support sites like Blue Gartyr mostly because they have pictures with obvious third party programs (ZOMG NOT TParty plugin!!!). If they would read those forums and listen to those complaints they might be able to do a better job. There are great ideas on those forums and when you read them you'll notice that, unlike Alla, most of the people who post there are English proficient and can actually make full sentences with captilization and punctuation (gasp!).

These are also that people that play the game more than anyone else and it's not likely that such a large endgame community wouldn't come up with some good ideas. I mean, wtf was SE thinking with Ulli? There were many better, non-balance wrecking options for fixing this. Making it popped like Olla, or making it spawn claimed after a previous golem has died. These at least level the playing field for people who don't have time in their real lives to camp Ulli for 12+ hours just to lose the claim to bots.

[Vyuru]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

And man, your explainations for the Wyvern only made you look really dumb(er). People need to think before they say stuff, because you paint yourself as a crazed fool, which is worst than a loud-mouth low level.

When your replies read more like personal attacks, I am not going to go into all of the reasons that I think a wyvern should grow up, I've dealt with the likes of Clicker over on Allakhazam, and I think I know when someone is willing to listen and when someone is just going to ignore any ideas/facts I present. All I am going to point out is, if your chocobo stayed a baby forever, wouldn't you want it to grow up? How do you expect us dragoons with our baby wyverns to feel?

I am neither for, nor against it, I only tossed it out there as a half baked idea of what I thought a better question to ask Sundi would have been, rather than, "how are you going to address /tells to someone when they zone?"

Taskmage sums it up better than I can, so I'm just going to stop here.

[Taskmage]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

stuff

No, no. Clearly endgame matters. It clearly matters very much to you and tens of thousands of people like you that comprise a small percentage of the game's total population. Even though I have never experienced them, I'm sure the problems you describe exist and I think they should be dealt with.

However, I think it is an equally myopic view to say that endgame is the only part of the game that really matters, that the problems others see in other parts of the game are stupid or trivial and don't deserve attention from developers. If some level 30 newbie quits the game because there isn't enough content his level to experience, or even for a reason you think is stupid like his white mage doesn't melee well enough, SE loses the exact same amount of money is if you quit because you haven't been able to get a Black Belt for a year, or because you can't fight Exdeath.

No, I honestly don't know how many level 75s quit, and I don't think you do either. But if you do know, tell me how many people quit before ever reaching 70. There is a huge amount of content to be experienced there that may be flawed or inadequate that other players lower level than you have a right to complain about. Myself, I have been playing the game happily for three years without reaching endgame. Dynamis and HNMs and the like don't concern me at all at this point. And frankly, I know as many people like myself as I know people who are involved in endgame activities, and far more who haven't even reached the point that I have.

I am not opposed to your endgame concerns or your proposed changes thereto. What I am opposed to is you and others in your camp shouting down other people's complaints and viewpoints because you believe you are the only ones that deserve to be heard. Being level 75 does not make you a beatiful snowflake that the world should heed and admire. You are just another player like everyone else on this forum, and regardless of how clever or wise you think yourself to be, your opinions will lie here alongside the opinions of the people you despise, waiting for SE to judge their merit.

[Stromgarde]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

They just aren't concerned as much with end-game content as you all (the hardcore end-game players) would like them to be.

This would be the problem. They keep ignoring the issue, and every time they add something totally new without even so much as addressing the problem with the endgame frustration mounts anew.

Sure, it may not be directly related, but 3 years of being constantly ignored has a way of skewing perceptions.

Edit: This was directed at the Kings, and nothing else.

[Legal Fish]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

perhaps, they are perfectly content to cater to the wider audience.

This is incorrect. At least since mid-way of CoP, they do more for the end-game than they do for any other area of play. However they are bad at it.

[neighbortaru]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

To anyone who says "end-game never mattered", thats all crap. Don't you realize how many people quit at level 75, because the end-game's main focus sucks hardcore or its impossible to break into? Look at an old page of end-game on this forum. You will see over half of the players are gone. There are new players everyday, yet the population has remained remain "static", this gives the illusion that no one is quitting. However, there seems to be at least 2-3 new people everyday on my server, let alone others.

perhaps the more accurate statement would be "end-game never mattered that much to SE."

perhaps, as ondori, berticus, etc. have noticed, they just aren't concerned as much with end-game content as you all (the hardcore end-game players) would like them to be.

perhaps, they are perfectly content to cater to the wider audience.

[Stromgarde]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

It isn't, You misunderstand the analogy. The analogy is, in fact, very elegant in it's simplicity.

You play the game.
Events unfold.
Sometimes you get what you want, other times you don't.

That middle bit doesn't describe your the frustration you go through adequately, but Omgwtfbbqkitten's point of view is very zen like; refusing to get caught up in the strife and discontentment are the result of attachment to circumstances and things.

Just because you don't hold the same point of view doesn't mean the analogy is poor.

Refusing to let things affect your emotions negatively is all well and dandy, that doesn't change the fact that the problem exists. This isn't something like blackjack, where sometimes the cards are simply against you. When you can't even find an open table half the time to play your game of choice, something should be done to allieviate the problem.