new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

[Aeni]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

Removing the focus from such a limited source can help alleviate some of the tension and strife between players though. Perhaps that would be enough to quell discontent for this generation of players.

Yet on the flip side, we have the old players versus new players argument. The old players will always be "better" than the new ones because time is simply on their side. Some new players don't even know what Boyhada Tree is (Yet they know the ins-and-outs of Wajoam Woodlands) Yet most of the veteran/seasoned players have seen anything and everything under the sun.

They're also so stacked with rare/ex-abjuration goodies that they spend 90% of their time online muling. Even with the mog locker enhancements. But that's for another discussion...

But the point is, to better facilitate an "aging" population, you would either have to:

(a) Completely split the "old timers" off in an expansion from the rest, pushing them all to another world, where you lose everything but your character and start off at 75 and go on to 150 as the new cap (Or starting from zero again) AKA Version 2 of FFXI (Fictional yes, but not impossible)

(b) You add instances, trying to "change the subject" and basically hope that players will stop complaining about not being able to get l33t gear because some group, RMT or otherwise, is camping on their mob.

(c) Do nothing, because you as the developer know that the servers will get unplugged in just a few more months...

I mean, I have no real answers to how to really help out the problems. I gave some ideas in the past, but each time, additional hurdles or complexities just lunged out and shot those ideas down. Hey, I'm not a paid developer employed by SE to figure out how to make an MMO game run better, never mind the fact that it's a horrible port and a botched abortion to boot (Meaning the PS2 to PC conversion)

[Aeni]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

So with instancing, some people get their wish of just getting the chance to fight a strong monster for the chance of something good to obtain as an award. Whether it is the actual fight in itself, or items. Realistically, the main driving reason to continue repeating it is for the items especially if the fight becomes easier and no longer a 'challenge' in of itself. On a personal note, I wouldn't mind that aspect just for the experience of fighting something and getting a new title. Useful items is a perk, but I'll get to that soon.

SA, I totally agree with your post and especially this portion. This is the main reason why, when I was on Midgard, most of the End Game players quit FFXI and opted for WoW, where they initially loved the Raid/Instance system. You still have a challenge and everyone had a chance to get the l33t gear. All you needed was a guild to establish, friends you can trust and you too can enjoy end game.

In FFXI, that is not always the case and the norm seems to either be that you had to bot to win claims (See BG's numerous threads on this subject) against highly competitive "heavily geared" and more seasoned JP players and RMT/gil sellers.

I remember when claiming a monster and "dragging it" to a preferred timezone ToD was a strat used by both JP and NA end game shells back in the days. The competition was fierce and MPK ran rampant. New players will not get to see this (Thank god) but even now, the competition moved on to botting/scripting/macro/dat hacking to win claims. Totally not cool and unfair to the "legitimate players."

Sure, SE can go cracking down on 3rd party proggy users all they like, but the fact remains that they're not even going to come close to clamping down near 25% of those cheaters. Majority are still alive and well after numerous attempts to stop the problem. The only way to go is instancing, much like how Assaults/BC work now.

It might remove one problem (external competition), but there are still other issues that need to be addressed. It's fair when it works in your favor, but unfair when it doesn't? How long is considered too long to obtain the best? How difficult is considered too difficult to be worth the effort? How rare is too rare?

Need to add, though, that you can't compare now with back then, when there was a smaller percentage of players at end game (Although majority at that time were JP players, so now this question about fair should also apply to them ... anyone care to ask that community about what they think?)

[Caspian]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

One more question, why should a mobs drops be appropriate in terms of the difficulty of the fight? Why can't the knowledge that you just beat the most badass mob in the entire game be reward enough?

Basically, to give you a reason to fight it again and again. As a regular player, it wouldn't be that big of a deal to beat a mob once and never do it again. But when you factor in that the drops suck so you gain nothing truly useful out of it, and the mobs that do drop the items you actually need, are heavily botted and highly overcamped, then you start to have a problem. Plus, SE likes players to experience all of their content, and they like them to experience it regularly. I can't imagine that it doesn't bother the majority of the devs and designers, that Hydra stays up for hours and days at a time with noone even thinking twice about just letting it stay there.

As for why they aren't recommending broad changes for all NM's, its b/c most other NM's dont have these major problems. Its the old phrase "If its not broken, don't fix it." Most of the requirements for other NM's work just fine.

[Vyuru]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

No one wants to search zones from HNMs

Ummm, ranger on a chocobo with wide scan.

Oh, the horror of searching a zone for a HNM >.>


What it really comes down to Legalfish, is that the three kings are NMs, and you want to change the NM system just for those NMs. Why should SE change those, and only those NMs and not the way ALL NMs work?

And I would have to side with Ziero, while your ideas of getting orbs from mobs isn't a bad one, I see no reason to go with that over say, letting abjurations drop from the KS99 battles.

Your idea to put mobs down in some labryinth under Pso'Xja, or behind the aletpa gate, only seem encourage botters.

Please try and keep this civil, we were doing so well ; ;

However, Wyrms, Hydra, and Cerberus drops are also improved to be even better, along with their strength

One more question, why should a mobs drops be appropriate in terms of the difficulty of the fight? Why can't the knowledge that you just beat the most badass mob in the entire game be reward enough?

[Legal Fish]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

You are not even worth responding to anymore, so I'll make this brief. Your reasons are either unexperienced and have no basis or just seem to be imaginary and overexaggerated or both. One system fixes all the problems and one creates one. No one wants to search zones from HNMs and no one is suddenly found one and gather the good ol' LS for a round with it. Its going to be hunted, but now, even more of a pain in the ass. Nothing changes for the better, who would be getting helped by the system? Its either having to put up same old, broken waste 3-9 hours of your life everyday vs something new with 9 new HNMs and a very open system to everyone, HNM camper or not. You can't argue against it without totally ignoring half of it. Getting the 12 3-7 HNMs(which despite you saying things in ignorance, are impossible to bot) is only half the source. Cloud Envoker-like system is also in place.

The idea of 9 new uncampible HNMs with 3 older HNMs being strengthed, leading 3 harder encounters that limit the alliance to 18(unzergable), which then leads to 3 more harder encounters, completely removing camping from this part of the end-game, with alternate ways outside hunting HNMs to fight the NQ/HQ encounters beats your taking same system as now, but making them harder, but zergable and making pop in various places, turning that 3 hours of boring camping into 3 hours of being unable to afk running around Vana'diel with Chocobos, all the while being just as boring.

And HNMs can inspir awe while sitting in their boss zone. Really, where do you get this idea they are suppose to wander about? Why would SE even create three zones that are a long-way distance from any towns or normal routes? Look at Aery, it is the farthest location from the entrance of Boyahda Tree one can be. That doesn't sound like SE wanted Fafnir to wander around Tahrongi Canyon to me. These zones are shaped like BCNMs, look at the pit. Look at the fact Behemoth is the only non-elemental monster that pops in that big opening at the end of Dominion. Adamantoise just happens to pop in the middle of a orgy of aggro monsters in the middle of the Valley of Sorrrows. All of these zones are at the end of some distant location. I can understand your lack of knowledge of 3-7 HNMs to think they can be botted, but seriously, what are you talking about SE wanting these monsters to wander the landside? SE very often puts HNMs or pop HNMs in remote and dangerous locations. Goldtongue Culberry spawns in a big circliar stair room at the bottom of one of the uncapped (maze-like, as always) Pso'Xja towers. Jorm pops on top of a mountain. The shijin pop in seperate islands in a floating sky castle. The beastmen kings pop in the deepest location of their stronghold. SE has always wanted to make these HNMs spawn in locations you had to go and look for them. Adamantoise's location is even half the battle. Though, I don't think you are capable of making a good response about this... I'm just curious as hell to what gave you the idea that these HNMs would be the type of wander, killing people. The only possible explanation in my mind is that you just pulled it out of your ass, as a solution to you wanting more encounters like Bloodtear and Guirve. However, kings shouldn't be the answer to this fantasy of yours. SE could easily add encounters that have nothing to do with kings to add this flavor of challenge. You don't need to break a broken system further.

It comes down to this.

Are you saying your unexperienced fix/guess is better than the ideas of many, many people who experienced it crafted into one single, very thought-out idea?

(PS. new gear is added to the NQs and HQs so that they drop even better and more varietied drops. However, Wyrms, Hydra, and Cerberus drops are also improved to be even better, along with their strength).

[Vyuru]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

Someone taking 5 minutes from the holla-crag to anywhere in La theine is believable and if unseen, can not be challenged. Someone getting behind the Altepa Gate in 5 minutes without help is not. Pos.hacking will remain a problem, but it will not ruin any chance of grasping the NM. The difference is big.

I don't know, they could send one person in there to check on the pop status of the mob, if no one is there (and with the true sight hacks and player position hack and /tell hacks I've heard about, it would be easy to tell) the rest of the LS just sits in some isolated corner of the map where no one goes, then warps in after an appropriate amount of time has passed.

And that's just if they didn't want to be caught, most don't seem to care.

This is especially true in the level capped zones where you would normally be spending alot of time running around trying to avoid aggro.

Another solution to at least behemoth? I've always thought it's a bit absurd to have ONE behemoth pop in all of The Behemoth's Domain. If this is the domain of the behemoth, ummm, why one?

Why not create a big zone, with like 20 behemoth, anyone of which has a chance at being a king behemoth spawn? Not only that, but whatever they eat has to be big, so either fill the zone with greater birds, or giant sheep (like lumbering lambert) Everything in this zone aggros to sight/sound from very far away, everything links, everything is a pain to sleep, and everything should be a challenge for an alliance to kill, as in, if you get a link, you're dead.

I dunno if that would be a good idea or not, but it'd make things interesting at the very least as there shouldn't be much room to kite the mobs for fear of aggro. I'd be more in favor of sheep there, AoE hp/mp down, sleep, behemoth's meteor, ohhh yeah, let the good times role :D


I don't know if they should.... Basically, some of this gear is the best for it's respective classes, these classes are also limitied to what, about 6 jobs? I don't think it's fair to overhaul the system just because everyone and their mother wants to fight the Kings when I would say that so little of the gear they drop is that much better than anything else.

I see no difference in saying that you want to make accessability to the Kings easier, which gets some of the best gear in the game, and if you were saying you wanted to make Dynamis accessability easier, which drops some of the best weapons in the game.

How many people can the servers support? I think I've seen slightly over 4000 people on at one time, yeah, it would really suck if they all went to fight one of the HNM at the same time, but it'd also suck if they all wanted to do dynamis windurst at the same time.

I view the HNM scene the same as the dynamis scene, it's not for everyone, and it should take some time to get things. The only reason there are so many bots and hackers out there is because the player base has made it important.

Heck, I remember talking to some HNM LS members back when they weren't that common, and hearing about how they had a rotating claim system, LS A gets the HNM one spawn, LS B the next, and so on. The HNM LS would help each other during the fights. The only reason this still isn't in excistance today is because more players arrived, and instead of trying to work something out, they wanted to try and outclaim so that they could get the mobs faster.

From what I have heard from friends who joined a HNM LS, I am really not that impressed with the HNM scene, it's not for everyone, nor should it be. I think that SE should crack down on the botters instead of trying to make them all happy.

[Ziero]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

The difference between pos.hacking toward new HNMs in hard to get to areas and pos.hacking to older HNMs in easy to get areas, is that, the whole LS won't and doesn't pos.hack. In your situation someone can claim and his LS can be there in a moment. Someone taking 5 minutes from the holla-crag to anywhere in La theine is believable and if unseen, can not be challenged. Someone getting behind the Altepa Gate in 5 minutes without help is not. Pos.hacking will remain a problem, but it will not ruin any chance of grasping the NM. The difference is big. You are position depended, just like the current situation is claim depended. Mine is time depended, and anti-claim depended. Pos hacking will only assist players in the situation I said, pos hacking will dominate in the situation you said.

And how would you know how fast a LS got down there or not? It's still all dependent on bots and hacks. The people who will know when these things are up are the ones who are using packet sniffing/other hack tools and they will be the first ones to go out there.

You say as if these NMs were meant to kill wandering low-levels. This is incorrect. There is a reason they are given their own zones, Behemoth even has its name in the zone. They are the type of NMs you search for, you 'climb a mountain to encounter the boss at the top'. Behemoths never lived Jungles. Why would Fafnir be outside his nest, in a wasteland no less? Why would Adamantoise be in a fresh-water Meadow, when his natural home is a sandy, salt-water beach-like area? They are boss encounters living in their personal zones.

No, I say these NMs were supposed to give off an impression of 'awe'. Something that does not happen in their current homes. My idea was just a general concept I would have liked to seen in game, it would unique and new to have a strong monster pop in different zones that people commonly travel through. If the monster doesn't fit the zone as you put it then you could always just change the zone itself. Don't think adamantoise should be in a meadow? Move it to another beach area. They will be boss encounters wherever they spawn regardless.

Really? Despite given their own zone and a daily timer that can be easily counted to 3 hours, with 25 minute breaks. This mentality is only found with currently useless 3-7 HNMs like Hydra or Jorm. It will NEVER, EVER exist on a good HNM that pops every 21-24 hour timer. It will not even exist on a good HNM with a 3-7 day timer. What you are saying is that people think casually about advacing, and this will never be the case in FFXI.

True, but there in lies the problem. SE likes their random pop mobs, but the players don't.

And do I have to repeat myself? The way kings works now is not fun or effective, and is very exclusive to those who can face the challenge of harder fights. Your idea does nothing to fix that. Making them harder, well yes, almost every idea will involve making them harder, but people can beat hard. There is going to be more than one LS that can beat hard. It will simply turn into a zone-reading, pos.hacking mess. The LS with the least cheats will always lose, everytime, unless they get lucky.

And the same could be said of the HNMs you want to add. Despite your denial, anything that pops unclaimed can be botted. Who do you think will be the first to know when a mob pops in the middle of no where in some deep dank cave?

3-7 pops can not be botted. Tiamat is heavily competed after, but is are not botted. You can't bot Tiamat, unless you spend every hour of your life in that one spot. The best you can do is set a mule there. What are you talking about?

Hmm, let me think. Who are the people who spend every hour of their waking lives in the game?

The fact there would be 2 100% and 2 50% HNMs to compete for per king, making a total of 12 HNMs for LSes to watch for over 3-7 pop times. Completely uncampible. Challenging in their own right, each requiring different strategies. On the week of a maint, thats 12 HNMs over 5 days that can't be botted/camped. Can you wrap your mind around that?

Yes, I can. You want to fix botting by adding 12 more easily botted mobs. That is just moving the problem from point A to point B.

Wyrms, Cerberus, and Hydra... along with future additions, will fill the role they should now. A superior LS will quickly abandon a orb-dropping HNM to another group, if they hear news of now-incredibly-strong, very rewarding Jorm is up.

Yes, other HNMs should be stronger with better drops anyway. Regardless of kings.

You make it seem that HNMs would be the only way to get orbs. I've already explained why it isn't, so you must be trying hard to ignore it. There would be more Behemoth Orbs appear in week from non-camping, non-limbus source than there would be Cloud Envokers. Do you understand this? The HNMs allow there to be no less 4 of Behemoth, Adamantoise, or Fafnir in 7 days, but non-camping events play a just as big role in obtaining a chance to battle them.

Actually in my last post I said this idea would be better *without* the random pop mobs. I also said it was an idea SE created and used over and over again. Kirin, Jailers, Bahamut, they all share this idea. You seem to fail to realize, despite making a comment about it in your lil chart, that this idea already exists and was used by SE many times before.

There is a reason why I called it flawless. It was made from the opinions and wishes of not one, but many players. It was a group effort, even if no one noticed they were being listened to by me. You system simply isn't that. Its a quick fix, that can easily be countered and doesn't solve more than 2 problems, if any. It isn't inspiring nor is it wanted by anyone. It could even make kings worse. Are you saying your unexperienced fix/guess is better than the ideas of many, many people who experienced it crafted into one single, very thought-out idea?

You're idea isn't flawless. Get that through your head. Your idea isn't even original. You say zone restrictions will make it fairer for people to get too new HNMs? That just leads to more bots, more hacks, more cheats, same problems with my idea. The first ones to know a mob is up are the ones who cheat. The original three beast kings who have that same 21-24 hour 'pop in small room' mentality will have the same problems there are now. You say HNMs, old and new, should be stronger with better drops? That's true, but has little to do with the kings. This is also SE has said they will not do anything about until they finish with ToAU. Yes my idea has problems, just like yours, but I'm not calling my idea flawless, I'm calling it unique. Your 'flawless' idea is something SE has already used time and time again, it's obvious they wanted Kings to be different.

[Legal Fish]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

Did you miss the part where they viewed, praised, and collected something about kings in the interview? The interview was the same-old-same-old, except that part. Its a BG forums interview, and BG forums sees it as the highlight. Are you going to us, BG forums, that it isn't?

The difference between pos.hacking toward new HNMs in hard to get to areas and pos.hacking to older HNMs in easy to get areas, is that, the whole LS won't and doesn't pos.hack. In your situation someone can claim and his LS can be there in a moment. Someone taking 5 minutes from the holla-crag to anywhere in La theine is believable and if unseen, can not be challenged. Someone getting behind the Altepa Gate in 5 minutes without help is not. Pos.hacking will remain a problem, but it will not ruin any chance of grasping the NM. The difference is big. You are position depended, just like the current situation is claim depended. Mine is time depended, and anti-claim depended. Pos hacking will only assist players in the situation I said, pos hacking will dominate in the situation you said.

You say as if these NMs were meant to kill wandering low-levels. This is incorrect. There is a reason they are given their own zones, Behemoth even has its name in the zone. They are the type of NMs you search for, you 'climb a mountain to encounter the boss at the top'. Behemoths never lived Jungles. Why would Fafnir be outside his nest, in a wasteland no less? Why would Adamantoise be in a fresh-water Meadow, when his natural home is a sandy, salt-water beach-like area? They are boss encounters living in their personal zones.

As stated before, they were originally created as such to get a sense of "Hey everyone, XXX mob is up. Come on everyone, lets go kill it together!".

Really? Despite given their own zone and a daily timer that can be easily counted to 3 hours, with 25 minute breaks. This mentality is only found with currently useless 3-7 HNMs like Hydra or Jorm. It will NEVER, EVER exist on a good HNM that pops every 21-24 hour timer. It will not even exist on a good HNM with a 3-7 day timer. What you are saying is that people think casually about advacing, and this will never be the case in FFXI.

And do I have to repeat myself? The way kings works now is not fun or effective, and is very exclusive to those who can face the challenge of harder fights. Your idea does nothing to fix that. Making them harder, well yes, almost every idea will involve making them harder, but people can beat hard. There is going to be more than one LS that can beat hard. It will simply turn into a zone-reading, pos.hacking mess. The LS with the least cheats will always lose, everytime, unless they get lucky.

3-7 pops can not be botted. Tiamat is heavily competed after, but is are not botted. You can't bot Tiamat, unless you spend every hour of your life in that one spot. The best you can do is set a mule there. What are you talking about?

The fact there would be 2 100% and 2 50% HNMs to compete for per king, making a total of 12 HNMs for LSes to watch for over 3-7 pop times. Completely uncampible. Challenging in their own right, each requiring different strategies. On the week of a maint, thats 12 HNMs over 5 days that can't be botted/camped. Can you wrap your mind around that? Within three weeks, their pops will be all mixed up and far from being insync. Now lets add fact, no LS only camps Kings(in this case, HNMs), but does Sky, Dynamis, Limbus(can result in getting an orb if they do a Metal Chip Limbus), Sea, and each member has their own free-time. You can even add a LS actually using the orb, therefor have no use for a HNM for the next 21 hours. There isn't enough time in a day/week to do everything. Only a JPLS made up in minds of ignorant low-levels thinking back when japanese players ruled servers could even come close to getting everything. Each have their own rewards and toughness to over come. New content and rewards = yes.

Wyrms, Cerberus, and Hydra... along with future additions, will fill the role they should now. A superior LS will quickly abandon a orb-dropping HNM to another group, if they hear news of now-incredibly-strong, very rewarding Jorm is up. You add in 5 more 3-7 timers(no PH) for the most advanced LSes.

You make it seem that HNMs would be the only way to get orbs. I've already explained why it isn't, so you must be trying hard to ignore it. There would be more Behemoth Orbs appear in week from non-camping, non-limbus source than there would be Cloud Envokers. Do you understand this? The HNMs allow there to be no less 4 of Behemoth, Adamantoise, or Fafnir in 7 days, but non-camping events play a just as big role in obtaining a chance to battle them.

There is a reason why I called it flawless. It was made from the opinions and wishes of not one, but many players. It was a group effort, even if no one noticed they were being listened to by me. You system simply isn't that. Its a quick fix, that can easily be countered and doesn't solve more than 2 problems, if any. It isn't inspiring nor is it wanted by anyone. It could even make kings worse. Are you saying your unexperienced fix/guess is better than the ideas of many, many people who experienced it crafted into one single, very thought-out idea?

[Ziero]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

Anyway, they can't be botted because they pop in the same time as Wyrms... not NQ Kings(not 21-24, but 3-7 days). Did you even read it? They would be located in various of places in Vana'diel, I've never stated where(so you are making up anything saying that they would be easy to bot because of location). The Antica King for one would be behind the Altepa Gate, which is not easy to get into. Its not hard to imagine HNMs at the bottom of 1 or both of the unused, uncapped Pso'Xja towers that are very maze like, and overall, wasted potential.

And expanding their pop location is simply a bad idea. It does nothing, but encourage pos haxing. If its the same zone or mulitple zones, doesn't make a difference, only, this time, you won't see the pos.hacking to report to a GM. Let's not forget allowing a NM to pop anywhere in Vana'diel destroys the lore and purpose of the three king zones. The King zones are pretty much BCNM-but-not areas with expable mobs by the entrance.

So my idea is bad because botters can just pos hack to the areas the kings pop but your idea is good because the areas they pop are hard to get to without hacking? Seriously, did you even think for a second, that maybe people who would warp hack to mobs with larger spawn areas would warp hack to areas these HNMs pop despite being hard to get too? So while normal players have to work extra hard just to *see* these mobs warp hackers would already be there. What makes you think that people won't bot/camp/monopolize these new HNMs with their extended repops, despite where they spawn?

My flaw is your flaw.

There's also the fact you want to add new HNMs, and dramatically alter existing HNMs just to make these other HNMs more accessible. But *any* random pop HNM can be botted, regardless of timers or locations. I can't think of one random pop NM/HNM with decent drops that hasn't been botted.

As stated before, they were originally created as such to get a sense of "Hey everyone, XXX mob is up. Come on everyone, lets go kill it together!". Best current example I can think of is Ose, back when people pted in LoO anyway. Pts would be grinding and exping, same old repeatetive tasks, then Ose would pop and people would group up and take it down. Yes some people would camp it, but many times it would be up for extended amounts of time only to be taken down by an Exp pt or something.

That was the intention behind making the three kings, and most original NMs and HNMs. I know we've all felt that feeling of 'Oh crap' when traveling through Kon or la thiene and accidentally running into steelfleece or Bloodtear. My idea came about with a desire to keep this feeling in the game. I agree they should be stronger, I said that when I originally posted my idea. I even suggest that the NQs should drob orbs to fight the HQs, as I agree that it was a good idea. But seeing that you ignored much of my initial idea, I don't think you have any place to complain about things being 'misread'.

I'll admit making these a BC style fight with orbs obtained through BCNM/ENM/ISNM/Limbus etc etc etc could work, but only if the random pop HNMs are excluded as sources. Anything, by both your admition and mine, that pops randomly will be botted, so to prevent more of this kind of drama those types of NMs should be limited to mediocre drops at best. Making wyrms/hydra/cerby/beast kings harder with better drops will only move the problem with the kings to them. But this is also an idea that has been suggested time and time again. It's also something SE has already done with other mobs without using your chart, my idea was just trying to be somewhat original while not changing multiple things in the game for a few specific pieces of gear.

The main problem with the kings are:

They're easy in comparison to other HNMs. Easy fix, make them stronger.
They drop *the* best items in game for the item's respective classes. There are no real alternatives to Ridill/defending ring/kaiser/Adam stuff. Easy fix, add competitively good gear to new HNMs/ISNMs/Assault
They're overcrowded and easy to bot due to a cramped pop area and near reliable timer. Easy fix, change the way they pop.

Now the reason why SE hasn't done this is because they're releasing new content and want people to go towards that. But they don't want to just one up the King's gear and thus become hesitant to create vastly superior gear. Instead they add new NMs with mediocre at best drops (bahamut's zaghnal for example) and in the end seem like they're doing nothing. The minute a new NM that's as easy as the kings drops a War/Drk axe that hits 2-3 times and has 40+ dmg, ridill will be 'old news'. Chances are the new Zones/Mobs/Endgame events they plan on adding will have an affect on the kings. Judging on how they made small party 'casual' events, melee-able HNMs, easy to obtain armor with great stats, an in depth chocobo raising/possible racing system, new meritable JA/Jt/spells including AM2, Debuff2, Prime specific BPs in an attempt to balance the jobs and 2 brand new jobs that are both useful and fun(not counting pup as it has problems), all of these ideas being player inspired, I don't see them not adding something to help this situation. Seriously, any one who says SE isn't listening now is just blowing smoke.

And from what I saw, the kings didn't become the 'highlight' of the interview, or this topic, until you and some BG friends decided to come in and start flaming/talking down to people who played down that questions importance. Much of that interview, including the questions about the kings, was the whole 'same old same old' questions asked every time and that seemed to be the main focus of the discussion.

[Legal Fish]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

I'm not challenging he plays FFXI. I'm saying he doesn't know nearly as much as a veteran player. Mog, I don't know you or care what you have to say, but I do know you have no knowledge on the matter. Instead of attempting to insult me, go learn about the game.

[Mog]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

What are you talking about? He was playing with us even back in the beta.

He used to do fun stuff like wear not released armor set at level 80, back in beta.

You obviously don't know it's the condescending Blood Red Poet behind that Legal Fish.

[kuu]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

Wrong. He knows about as much as a level 30 Warrior with an underleveled sub with veteran player friends.

What are you talking about? He was playing with us even back in the beta.

He used to do fun stuff like wear not released armor set at level 80, back in beta.

[Legal Fish]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

He knows as much as a step above a veteran player. He still plays ffxi if I remember correctly at that.

Wrong. He knows about as much as a level 30 Warrior with an underleveled sub with veteran player friends.

[kuu]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

I'm not sure what the interviewers expected from Sundi. After all, he's the person who, in their last interview, assured them ToAU was targetted towards low level players and was full of soloable content to try and get away from party dependancy.

How do we know there won't be? We've only seen a portion of ToAU yet.

But the point is true. Sundi is PR, he's gets information and passes information. He doesn't make the decisions.

He knows as much as a step above a veteran player. He still plays ffxi if I remember correctly at that.

[Legal Fish]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

The chart you authored isn't really any different from making things drop from KSNMs. It also just moves the biggest problem with the kings, botting, from point A to point B. As you said yourself the majority of the pop items will come from other HNMs, all of which can and will be botted. Much like the kings, they have a similar spawn rate and pop in an area just as small, thus the perfect conditions for botters. They're also just as, if not easier, then the NQ kings meaning more people will be trying to get them in smaller groups. This just makes it easier for Gil sellers to bot these guys and sell off the Orbs they drop to the highest bidder.

Um, what? Well it looks you misunderstood/misread the chart then...

First off the idea of easy NQ and HQ Kings ends quickly with both becoming very strong. NQ being stronger than KSNM99s and HQ being the strongest monsters in the (current) game(with the exception of the very buggy AV).

The HNMs are made to be tough, but not as tough as NQ Kings. Ouryu or Alastor Antlion seems like a good range of toughness. An exception would be the 3 (original) beastmen kings, but who now have the ability to call over Beastmen to their aid. Anyway, they can't be botted because they pop in the same time as Wyrms... not NQ Kings(not 21-24, but 3-7 days). Did you even read it? They would be located in various of places in Vana'diel, I've never stated where(so you are making up anything saying that they would be easy to bot because of location). The Antica King for one would be behind the Altepa Gate, which is not easy to get into. Its not hard to imagine HNMs at the bottom of 1 or both of the unused, uncapped Pso'Xja towers that are very maze like, and overall, wasted potential.

Then of course there are the other options, but as you said before they're either annoyingly difficult or just not done. Now the ENM orb thing works for Ouruyu and bahamut because they drop pretty much crap, but changing it so you have to do those things to get a defending ring/ridill/Adamn stuff will just result in more people crying about it being too hard to do. Though yes they will all be 'able' to do it, most people won't bother due to the low drop rates you suggested.

What are you talking about? I can't even respond to this, because it doesn't make sense. I've never said any of that. (Ouryu, btw)

So instead of having people just complain about botters you'll also have people complaining about a lot of effort for little reward. And in the end, this is why SE hasn't done anything major to the kings so far, any major change will always result in a brand new problem. Now taking the random pop HNMs out of the equation, you would get no complaints about gil sellers controlling these mobs, but you would still get complaints about the low drop rates from all the 'extra' methods suggested.

I seriously doubt you know exactly why SE doesn't do or do anything. All signs point to that they don't care or simply don't know. And, what? People wouldn't complain about the 'low drop rates' from extra methods. The fact that one can get 100% from Metal Chip Limbus(which is challenging, but possible) and there are more 'extra' methods than Cloud Envoker proves that there will be more drops than the Ouryu/Bahamut system. KSNM are very generious with a 30% drop rate, meaning you are likely to get 1 by doing 3-4 wins and would have to be unlucky to not get one by 6-9 wins.

Instead of changing/adding dozens of NMs/HNMs/ENMs etc just to make getting a few great items 'fairer', they should just change the monsters themselves. Making NQs and HQs much stronger for example would take out much of the competition. Changing their spawn area to a much large range would help cut down on botting(something that can never be removed 100%) and overcrowding. And giving equally good drops to other, pre-existing harder fights would not only bring more people towards that content but take people away from the kings.

As you can see, Wyrms, Hydra, and Cerberus would all become stronger and drop better things(or in the case of Hydra and Cerberus, things to be crafted into better things). NQs and HQs in this system are strong. The system entirely removes botting as you can't camp the pop monsters or you don't camp at all. The difference between what you are saying and what I am saying is, you are allowing botting and I'm allowing more new content and turning the current 'line' the end-game is now into a map of progression. Oh and you don't have to waste 3-9 hours of your life. And you can fight them when you want. There is a reason its called "flawless".

And expanding their pop location is simply a bad idea. It does nothing, but encourage pos haxing. If its the same zone or mulitple zones, doesn't make a difference, only, this time, you won't see the pos.hacking to report to a GM. Let's not forget allowing a NM to pop anywhere in Vana'diel destroys the lore and purpose of the three king zones. The King zones are pretty much BCNM-but-not areas with expable mobs by the entrance.

Now my idea came about because it solves one of those problems, the small area one, while making these monsters much more unique. Though they can still fall victim to warp bots, that is far easier to detect and ban then a voke bot. And despite LSs being able to sit and camp them, there will always be a chance the monster spawns in a different zone. But even this idea has it's flaws as it's not easy to completely change something like this without throwing everything that previously existed out of whack.

I've already stated why this is a bad idea. Lets not forget, I don't think anyone who camps kings wants this. "So, now, I have to spend those 3-9 hours searching zones instead of afking every 30 minutes? GREAT IDEA". It doesn't make them more accessiable. Take out the provoke-bot, put in the pos.hax.

Also, how did a discussion about an interview turn into a topic about the three kings? O.o

Because the highlight of the interview was the 3 Kings and the chart. That's like asking "Why did this the discussion about inflation turn into a topic about money? O.o".