Ding dong the Witch is dead!

[Murphie]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

This is a joke and a contradiction.

I really dont think you get that it is a war. In war, bad things happen. People die, people get hurt, people suffer. In the end, more times than not, things are better. That's all we can hope for.

You expect to fight a war with pretty happy ideas and nice words? While the enemy is doing things to our prisoners 100 fold worse than anything we've done and you come down on the US? Absolutely laughable.

You're reading way too much into what I said. If that makes you happy, have at it, but you're wrong. Your statement there is as much of a joke and a contradiction as what I said was. For crying out loud.

[Rodin]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

You're reading way too much into what I said. If that makes you happy, have at it, but you're wrong. Your statement there is as much of a joke and a contradiction as what I said was. For crying out loud.

Supporting Arguments for your statement? That irritates the hell out of me, when somebody doesn't give supporting arguments. Why is it as much a contradiction and joke as what you said?

[Murphie]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

He claims that:

I really dont think you get that it is a war. In war, bad things happen. People die, people get hurt, people suffer. In the end, more times than not, things are better. That's all we can hope for

Which, really? Not so much. Who is it better for? The winner? The families of the dead? The losers? People who weren't involved with it at all?

I don't think that the ends always justify the means. I don't see where the contradiction is in what I said. I've made my point rather clear several times. But if people are going to read into that and assume that I'm either a.) Attacking them, b.) Attacking soldiers, or c.) Protesting the way in some war from the comfort of my armchair, then yeah, I'm going to laugh, because that's not at all what I'm saying.

And where were his supporting arguments anyway?

[DakAttack]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

War is just a means to an end. Atrocities will be commited on both sides, that's a given, and studies have been done countless times to find out why. Subordinates are more willing to commit these acts when they're ordered to, or when they can place the blame and consquences on whomever the order came down from. It's just a cold, emotionless system that allows soldiers to act with cold emotion. I say torture, you say okay, and that's that, it's just that easy.

I guess when you're trained to not question your higher ranking officers' orders you should be trained to recognize which orders are bogus.

[Murphie]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

War is just a means to an end. Atrocities will be commited on both sides, that's a given, and studies have been done countless times to find out why. Subordinates are more willing to commit these acts when they're ordered to, or when they can place the blame and consquences on whomever the order came down from. It's just a cold, emotionless system that allows soldiers to act with cold emotion. I say torture, you say okay, and that's that, it's just that easy.

Which I totally get. I understand how the system works. I just don't necessarily agree with it. And somehow that gets translated into I hate everything about the system and those in it, which isn't what I'm saying at all.

[Rodin]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

Well, when you say you don't agree with a "system", what you're really saying is just that. You don't agree with the system. The System being the actual system, which means, what it's made out of. A system can't function without parts. Those parts are the system. So when you're saying you don't like a system, you're really saying you don't agree with or like the people/things in the system.

[Murphie]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

Well, when you say you don't agree with a "system", what you're really saying is just that. You don't agree with the system. The System being the actual system, which means, what it's made out of. A system can't function without parts. Those parts are the system. So when you're saying you don't like a system, you're really saying you don't agree with or like the people/things in the system.

When I say I don't agree with a system, I'm saying that I don't agree with the system, period. I understand that there is a difference between the cogs in the system and those that actually control it. The former don't have much say in the matter and only have my sympathy. The latter are another matter altogether.

Please stop telling me what you think I'm saying.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

Nice speech, once again. It sounds like a campaign ad, or one of Jack Nicholson's speeches from A Few Good Men.

Rodin - I (and many others) get that this is a War. We just disagree as to what actions are necessary to achieve our goals.

No its not a speech, its called the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts or isn't what we want to hear and we lash out at the people who tell it to us.

Of course, you have the LUXURY of disagreeing with the actions. You live in an area not ravaged by war or under the constant threat of harm to the masses. If you lived in a zone that was targeted by terrorists and you were afraid to go to the store for a loaf of bread, I'm sure your opinion would be tinted with some realism. It's easy to judge when your safe and warm.

And just so everyone is aware, as some of you are, neither my husband or I support the current regime in Washington. We would much rather see our young men and women home and safe where they belong. We also disagree with the reasons that we are over there in the first place, but we do support our troops.

[Murphie]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

No its not a speech, its called the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts or isn't what we want to hear and we lash out at the people who tell it to us.

I'm sorry, TGM, but it is a speech. It's rhetoric. Parts of it may be true, but it isn't an absolute truth.

Also, I'm not lashing out because I don't like what you have to say. If anything, you're the one lashing out at me. I made a casual comment that was entirely factual (re: Geneva Laws), and you attacked me for it.

Of course, you have the LUXURY of disagreeing with the actions. You live in an area not ravaged by war or under the constant threat of harm to the masses. If you lived in a zone that was targeted by terrorists and you were afraid to go to the store for a loaf of bread, I'm sure your opinion would be tinted with some realism. It's easy to judge when your safe and warm.

Neither you nor I are over there fighting, so yeah, we're kind of both playing armchair politician. It doesn't make either of us more or less wrong or right than the other. We just disagree. I didn't join the armed forces because I don't agree with their tactics, and I knew that if I did, I'd be forced to do things that I didn't agree with because that was my job.

And just so everyone is aware, as some of you are, neither my husband or I support the current regime in Washington. We would much rather see our young men and women home and safe where they belong. We also disagree with the reasons that we are over there in the first place, but we do support our troops.

As do I. Have I said otherwise? If so, please point that out to me, because as it stands, you're just telling me that I'm saying things that I am not, and that might be the whole reason that there is even any kind of issue here.

I support our troops wholeheartedly. As you've quite astutely pointed out, you don't have to agree with what is going on to stand behind the young men and women who are over there so that the rest of us can be comfortable over here.

Just because I'm not over there fighting doesn't mean I'm not allowed to have an opinion though.

I think you're a really great person, TGM, and I really enjoy reading all of your posts here in the forum. I'm not sure what's going on here, but I'd like to think that we can disagree peaceably without accusing the other of being something that they are quite clearly not.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

I'm sorry, TGM, but it is a speech. It's rhetoric. Parts of it may be true, but it isn't an absolute truth.

Also, I'm not lashing out because I don't like what you have to say. If anything, you're the one lashing out at me. I made a casual comment that was entirely factual (re: Geneva Laws), and you attacked me for it.


Neither you nor I are over there fighting, so yeah, we're kind of both playing armchair politician. It doesn't make either of us more or less wrong or right than the other. We just disagree. I didn't join the armed forces because I don't agree with their tactics, and I knew that if I did, I'd be forced to do things that I didn't agree with because that was my job.

As do I. Have I said otherwise? If so, please point that out to me, because as it stands, you're just telling me that I'm saying things that I am not, and that might be the whole reason that there is even any kind of issue here.

I support our troops wholeheartedly. As you've quite astutely pointed out, you don't have to agree with what is going on to stand behind the young men and women who are over there so that the rest of us can be comfortable over here.

Just because I'm not over there fighting doesn't mean I'm not allowed to have an opinion though.

I think you're a really great person, TGM, and I really enjoy reading all of your posts here in the forum. I'm not sure what's going on here, but I'd like to think that we can disagree peaceably without accusing the other of being something that they are quite clearly not.

It seems that you are the one making an issue of it. I said "just so everyone is aware" and you do realize that means everyone that reads the thread and not just you, right?

In fact, my very first reply was to Maju and not even you. So can I say that you jumped on the bandwagon and now can not stand the ride? You really are taking this way to personally and it may be a good thing to stand back and take a breather.

As far as your post about neither of us being over there, yes you are correct. But I am married to a military man that was actually in the service during a war and even lost a limb at that time. I would have to say that I have a bit more actual knowledge of the horrors of war than most, vous comprenez?

[Murphie]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

I had a really long post here, but on second thought I don't really think it's worthwhile to continue this discussion. I think we're going to just go around in circles, and I'm not really interested in that. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

For what it's worth Aelathir, I enjoyed reading your posts and am in 100% agreement with them. Shame I missed this thread when it started out as I have a feeling it'll get locked down soon.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

/em runs around in t3h circles also.

You do whatever is necessary. Simple as that.

But no one wants to look at that side of it. No one wants to hear about it. If they do their dirty little work behind closed doors and no one finds out, then we all sit in our quiet warm homes safe from all the horror that is out there. Unaware, blithely going about our daily routine.

Does this justify treating every prisoner we get with physical torture and psychological abuse? No, it doesn't. Is it sometimes necessary to do to some individuals? Yes, it is. Get used to it, its a god damn war.

I really don’t think you get that it is a war. In war, bad things happen. People die, people get hurt, and people suffer. In the end, more times than not, things are better. That's all we can hope for.

You expect to fight a war with pretty happy ideas and nice words? While the enemy is doing things to our prisoners 100 fold worse than anything we've done and you come down on the US? Absolutely laughable.

War is just a means to an end. Atrocities will be committed on both sides, that's a given. . .

Three things I specifically wanted to agree with and highlight.

As such, it's wierd, because in situations like this, we can't have middle ground. It's either "the ends justify the means," or not. To be frank, physical deprivation of bodily necessities is too good of a torture for people who, without hesitation, would kidnap an American and behead them for the world to see.

We're (i'll stop saying "they're," because as, we are involved, whether we like it or not) fighting an enemy that has soldiers who believe so strongly in their cause that they would so anything, even suicide bomb, or act as members of a different association if it meant taking out American troops/civilians in one way or another.

But this argument seems to be falling on deaf ears, because we're all pretty much grown and stuck in our own opinions. Thus, I don't think it'll go much further than it has now.

One question that's been lingering in my mind is what has been going on in Israel lately? Is ther finally peace in the Gaza strip? I know that one of the leaders during the "war" times died (or has it been both now?), and this new leader was seeking peace, but is there really peace on the Gaza Strip?

If we want to put things in perspective of our own luxurious American lives, take a look no further than even 8 years ago in Israel, where if you were waiting for the bus to go to work, you could die via bomb at the bus stop. Things like that and the bomb (or was it a bomb threat? I've been really hazy on my politics lately >.>) in Europe this past year (I think it was in Spain) are realities that we have never, and most likely will never experience.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

Things like that and the bomb (or was it a bomb threat? I've been really hazy on my politics lately >.>) in Europe this past year (I think it was in Spain) are realities that we have never, and most likely will never experience.

I live in England, I've lived with the threat of terrorist attacks pretty much most of my life. Mainly from the IRA who received money from Americans to, "continue their fight for freedom against their English oppressors". From the statements you make in your post it seems you think only Americans frequent this site.

Also, don't fall into the trap of thinking if you repeat the same statements made by others repeatedly it makes them correct.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

Not suprised. Historically, America has given money and aid to groups in order to route out a "greater evil." (Bin Laden rings a bell.)

These things happen in politics. Give money to gueurillas in Columbia to assassinate the dictator there. What does that have to do with anything in the post though?

The ongoing (at least, I haven't heard that it's been resolved) conflict between the Protestants and Catholics. . . Let me not comment on religion. I'm non-denominational Christian, and fighting when you worship the same God. *heavy sigh* Yeah, no comment.