Ding dong the Witch is dead!

[Herrisa]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

War is not a good way to show our strenghts and faults because war itself is a fault. An advanced species does not kill its own kin.

No offense, but what other advanced species are you talking about?

As far as we know, humans are the only ones. That being true, all humans create war/fight amongst each another. We've been doing it since the beginning of Earth when we were all single cell organisms that thought, "Hmm... that other single cell organism looks tasty."

I know, however, if we measure, for example, church attendance, America would easily beat every Scandinavian country. My experience tells me it's pretty much only elderly people who regularly go to church in Northern Europe and the churches are rapidly losing members.

Well, the US is the third most populated country in the world. Of course we have more people attending.

I would be lying if I told you I've studied American goverment form, however, a while I ago I read this nice article about what Bush has been doing.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/04/30/examples_of_the_presidents_signing_statements/

To me this looks like the president can interpret the contitution any way he sees fit.

Well.. this is Bush who interprets the law in whatever manner he deams right, such as illegally tapping phone lines without a judicial warrent. So.. yeah... Then, again, if he does get out of line Congress can turn around and impeach him. With his rating so low and his own party trying to seperate themselves from him, he's walking a fine line. I just have the feeling most people are waiting for him to leave office. Next year is his last year.

Anyway, the impression I've got is that your president has more power than any prime minister and most other presidents in the world.

For understanding: the basics of the US government is that it has three branches and is made of checks and balances. The Legislative Branch (Congress & Senate) are the ones that make the laws, it's then sent to the Executive Branch (President) where s/he can veto it or sign it into order. If the president vetos a law, it's sent back to the Legislative branch were either its changed or, with a majority, the legislative branch can go against the President and pass the law anyway. If the law is signed and something arises that causes concern, the law can then be sent to review by the Judicial Branch who can deem the law unconstitutional and kill it right then and there.

Our government in a nutshell.

[Macht]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

No offense, but what other advanced species are you talking about?

As far as we know, humans are the only ones. That being true, all humans create war/fight amongst each another. We've been doing it since the beginning of Earth when we were all single cell organisms that thought, "Hmm... that other single cell organism looks tasty."



Well, the US is the third most populated country in the world. Of course we have more people attending.



Well.. this is Bush who interprets the law in whatever manner he deams right, such as illegally tapping phone lines without a judicial warrent. So.. yeah... Then, again, if he does get out of line Congress can turn around and impeach him. With his rating so low and his own party trying to seperate themselves from him, he's walking a fine line. I just have the feeling most people are waiting for him to leave office. Next year is his last year.



For understanding: the basics of the US government is that it has three branches and is made of checks and balances. The Legislative Branch (Congress & Senate) are the ones that make the laws, it's then sent to the Executive Branch (President) where s/he can veto it or sign it into order. If the president vetos a law, it's sent back to the Legislative branch were either its changed or, with a majority, the legislative branch can go against the President and pass the law anyway. If the law is signed and something arises that causes concern, the law can then be sent to review by the Judicial Branch who can deem the law unconstitutional and kill it right then and there.

Our government in a nutshell.

Yeah, basically if you want it in laymen's terms basically the government's construction is almost like a tribunal. Two of the three branches have to be in agreement of a law for it to pass.

The difference between the three branches is mainly who's in them and how they get there. The Legislative composed of many people and a quantity varied by states populous and choosen by people who are residences of that area. Judical basically choosen by a majority agreement from the Legistative and the President by the people (Yet his cabinet is his choice alone basically). In effect it is suppose to be the three branches holding 3 aspects (The People's view, Justice's view, and a United view).

Just some of the more complicated stuff to it all I don't like as well as how some gain a position in their areas. Not to mention the whole policital crap that goes on, trying to find someone represent you and do what the people want. Horrible when you get one that's tricked his way in and doesn't listen to the people. That's the irony it's easy to put someone in there, but once they are there it can be difficult to get them out. Sort of makes it feel that yeah we the people get to choose who's there but we the people don't get to choose if they should be removed from there.

[Draco Dagon]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

I'm not following. A murderer goes free and human civilization dies?

While it might of been my fault for the use of words, I think you should at least of known I was speaking of terrorists, and those in the mideast more specifically.

I dunno about that. Thanks to all the security checks and bureaucracy it took us fricking two hours to switch from one plane to another on my trip there a month ago. But on the other hand the boarding card actually asked me if I have been involved in genocide.

On the other hand, 2hrs can be nothing either for a terrorist to go through. Also, let me remind you that if you were mideastern (Arabic/Iranian/Islamic at least), you'd of less likely to gone through that hassle because the fear the airports have in being sued. Plus, that's just airport security, not port security (where over 99% of our ports remain unsecured).

War is not a good way to show our strenghts and faults because war itself is a fault. An advanced species does not kill its own kin.

So far, that's only in the movies-no offense, but I don't see any advanced species not killing its own kin.

I know, however, if we measure, for example, church attendance, America would easily beat every Scandinavian country. My experience tells me it's pretty much only elderly people who regularly go to church in Northern Europe and the churches are rapidly losing members.

Only because America has a larger population perhaps.

I would be lying if I told you I've studied American goverment form, however, a while I ago I read this nice article about what Bush has been doing.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/04/30/examples_of_the_presidents_signing_statements/

To me this looks like the president can interpret the contitution any way he sees fit.

Others have covered that for me quite well. ^^

Anyway, the impression I've got is that your president has more power than any prime minister and most other presidents in the world.

Well, that is your impression, but I do believe you're wrong to seriously believe that he has much of any power however.

[Sokarr]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

War is not a good way to show our strenghts and faults because war itself is a fault. An advanced species does not kill its own kin.

Some of our best inventions were a direct result of it's usage for military/war.

A little thing called the "internet" was one of them.

The electronic/digital computer is another. The Colossus was used to decode German messages during the 2nd World War. The ENIAC was used for Army Ballistics.

So was space exploration. It was possible because we wanted to build better delievery systems to nuke each other off the face of the planet.

[Maju]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

Actually 2 hours is nothing when people are just running through the motions. Because you had to wait doesnt mean you are any more safe now.

I work near LAX here in california and my office building over looks the tarmack. Heck, where I park my car, I can wander around and get myself onto the runway, undetected. What prevents me from carrying a backpack full of explosives? or a duffel bag with an disassebled rpg? I can get so close to the runway its not even funny.

The other day, the Isreali airline (forgot the name) was landing at LAX on my way back from lunch. they have a handful of LAPD patrolling around the runway and on the look out whenever these planes land but really, what stops me from whipping out a rpg from my trunk as I drive by on Aviation Blvd (a major street that runs right behind the runway and is separated by 2 chain link fences)?

So really, just because its a slight inconvience for most travellers, it isnt that much safer to be honest, just more irritated.

Fair enough.

Honestly, I hate war myself. I really do. However, I really dont think we can avoid it. JFK said: "those that make peaceful resolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable"

Dont you think this is a pretty solid of an idea? If someone doesnt want to stop opressing people or hurting others, how will you make them stop, by asking nicely? I sincerely doubt it. A great example is france's appeasement policy it took with germany before WWII.

The only way is to beat them down till the submit. For lack of a better description.

Correct, true need for a violent solution only comes from violence. If Saddamn had treated his people like people there would have been no need to remove him.

Now many people will say, well its none of our business. It's not our place to say what and how such and such government should treats its people. True perhaps. I do think it is just as wrong to sit back and watch people suffer when you can help out. If you see some guy robbing a lady and beating her, would you sit back and not do anything when you have a camera in your hand or better yet, if you had a bat in your hand, you'd let the man beat the lady since its not your business? no. Then theres always the arguement of where to draw the line, I think this is were the hearts of men break down. That line is always debatable.

In the end, more times than not, does the result end up being beneficial? Yea... usually.

Perhaps, perhaps not. WW2 could very well have ended as a victory for Hitler if it America hadn't joined the war, however, then we have disasters like Vietnam and Vietnam 2...err I mean Iraq.

What people must realize is that you can't kill a thought, an ideology or a religion by force. Just like you couldn't kill communism by fighting communists, you can't make everyone not hate America by killing everyone who do.

Also, Iraq is quickly becoming a mess not unlike Vietnam. Lots of drug abuse, bad behaviour and executed civilians. Right now Iraq is falling into civil war and things are probably worse than before the US invaded. At least you got rid of that nutter Saddam.

The morale of the US troops in Iraq is really bad right now. An officer ordered his troops to immediately kill anyone who they see talking into a cellphone because he was afraid they could be remote detonators.

Some of our best inventions were a direct result of it's usage for military/war.

A little thing called the "internet" was one of them.

The electronic/digital computer is another. The Colossus was used to decode German messages during the 2nd World War. The ENIAC was used for Army Ballistics.

So was space exploration. It was possible because we wanted to build better delievery systems to nuke each other off the face of the planet.

Very true and very sad. Why does only the urge to kill your fellow humans lead to such a rapid techological advancement?

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

A more interesting concept to discuss would be why Human nature itself is the actual cause of wars. If we want to boil it down, society has been at war since before recorded history. Anthropologists have even discovered ancient skeletons that have blow wounds and cuts to the body and skull.

What is the driving factor for war? Power and control and influence, is my take on it.

As long as humans desire more power, there will be war. That much is granted. Not even our grandchildren's grandchildren will live in a world where there is peace, history shows that. Someone mentioned appeasement earlier on this page, and that was also something that was very careless of the European nations.

(Bascially, Hitler was going batshit crazy over in Europe BEFORE WW2 broke out, and the other nations decided to just let him do as he wanted, because going to war would have been a bad idea financially for all of Europe.)

Ironically, it was "a damned if ya do, damned if ya don't" situation. WW2 sucessfully thrusted America out of the depression, but that was mostly because Americans were all working together. Things liks donating all the metal we could, growing our own food so that productions companies could send more to the troops, donating old materials... Things like that brought the country together.

With the involvement of the strongly opposed media in wars as far back as Vietnam are the reason that we are now a country more divided than together. Looking at the 2004 election, there was never a more evident division in our opinions than evident by that. (HOWEVER, America is, thankfully, a nation where power can transfer overnight and no one dies from it.)

But anyway, the media has made things worse. I mean, they were talking about the "horrific torture of prisoners." And EVERYONE and their dog was outraged. I'm sitting there listening to the reactions of the newscasters and I'm like "Are you completely Sh**in me?"

War is hell. Prisoners were lucky that they weren't killed outright. And hell, weren't these the same people who, probably just days and weeks earlier, would have put a bomb on themselves without a second's notice?

In Vietnam, there was a big stink over "going to towns and killing helpless people! ZOMG, NO!!!!" Yet, these same "farming communities" had people who would hide semi-automatic weapons under their smocks, or machine guns in their rice patches and ambush troops.

Kids were coming to the bases, pretending to be refugees, and were really just walking bomb fodor.

The media doesn't want to point out things like this, and instead, they're all up in our war strategies, scrutinizing our leaders, worsening the division of our country and generally making a mess of things. I'm very much Liberal, but I recognize war in it's current state, as a necessary evil. I don't support Bush, but you all should know that in a time of war, no matter who is right in the conflict, if our country loses, we'll be worse off.

Sure, our politicians are corrupt. That's been going on since ancient Greece. That's another part of Human nature. Yes, you torture prisoners in war. Yes, you cut off supply lines, starve your enemies and kill the children so that more hate can't be propagandized to the masses.

The extremely one-sided media is the reason so many people hate the war without even taking a second opportunity to realize the intricacies of it.

Sorry for the rant that was (kinda) off-topic from the current discussion. Even tho I kinda disagree with Maju, she (basing this off avatar, sry if I'm mistaken) is making a decent argument and I thought I'd say my own piece.

[Murphie]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

You can't just kill prisoners anyway because of the Geneva Conventions. Unless you want the rest of the world breathing down your neck, that is.

It's the same reason you're not allowed to torture them.

[Macht]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

A more interesting concept to discuss would be why Human nature itself is the actual cause of wars. If we want to boil it down, society has been at war since before recorded history. Anthropologists have even discovered ancient skeletons that have blow wounds and cuts to the body and skull.

What is the driving factor for war? Power and control and influence, is my take on it.

Well if you want to go with some of the scientific theories about that. Then the starting reason's were pretty much the same as most animals. The reason for one to fight another was for territory an area they'd feel safe in, for mating going with the survival of the fittest, and for social ranking the strongest to lead the weakest to do the other meager tasks.

The ones wanting more power and control are basically just perversions born from those basics. Outside of that it's just a matter of view on what would be considered strength, physical strength, mental strength, flexibility, spiritual strength, speed, adaptibility, etc..

[Maju]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

In Vietnam, there was a big stink over "going to towns and killing helpless people! ZOMG, NO!!!!" Yet, these same "farming communities" had people who would hide semi-automatic weapons under their smocks, or machine guns in their rice patches and ambush troops.

And this is exactly why the Vietnam war was one huge mistake from the very beginning. It was impossible to tell if someone is a Vietkong member or supporter just by looking at them. So what do you do? Burn every village you see in fear of hidden weapons and soldiers?

Vietkong was the kind of enemy you can never truly beat. It was foolish of the US to get involved.

Sorry for the rant that was (kinda) off-topic from the current discussion. Even tho I kinda disagree with Maju, she (basing this off avatar, sry if I'm mistaken) is making a decent argument and I thought I'd say my own piece.

Big hairy manthra. Girls don't discuss politics on message boards. ;p

You can't just kill prisoners anyway because of the Geneva Conventions. Unless you want the rest of the world breathing down your neck, that is.

It's the same reason you're not allowed to torture them.

The prison camp of Guantanamo is is different. According to the US military the prisoners there are "illegal fighters" and not prisoners of war. Because of this they don't have to give a damn about the Geneva Convention, or so they say.

Funny that most of the prisoners weren't even caught by American troops. They were captured by bounty hunters and sold to US troops as enemy fighters or terrorists even though the bounty hunters didn't have any idea of who they were. They only cared about the money.

Most of the prisoners there have not been told why they are begin held there and when they will be released. According to an article I read earlier, the personell at the camp have been telling the prisoners that they'll get out when they're around 50 years old (most of them were around 20 when captured) or never. In truth nobody knows what to do with the prisoners.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

I wonder what the terrorists do with American or other nations prisoners?? I'm sure they follow the Geneva Convention, right?


Oh wait, they beat them, torture them, and behead them and film it so that even their families can see.

[Maju]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

I wonder what the terrorists do with American or other nations prisoners?? I'm sure they follow the Geneva Convention, right?


Oh wait, they beat them, torture them, and behead them and film it so that even their families can see.

Hmm? Has someone claimed otherwise?

I hope you aren't trying to justify violating human rights by saying others do it as well.

[Murphie]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

I wonder what the terrorists do with American or other nations prisoners?? I'm sure they follow the Geneva Convention, right?


Oh wait, they beat them, torture them, and behead them and film it so that even their families can see.

So that makes it ok for us to do it? It's difficult to condemn someone else's behavior if you're just as guilty, you know.

[Rodin]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

The fact is, we dont' do it. And that makes all the difference. While you guys might not like the occasional punch or kick to a prisoner, you have to realize, many of the people being held in Guantanamo Bay are highly trained, Taliban and Insurgent Agents. IMO, a swift punch or kick is a lot better than what they deserve, especially if they act out. It's not like we're feeding them non-kosher meals, and not allowing them to pray 5 times a day. But that being said, I think for the way they treat "infidels", we're doing them a lot more good than they deserve.

[Macht]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

So that makes it ok for us to do it? It's difficult to condemn someone else's behavior if you're just as guilty, you know.

lol, we being religious now?

/me puts on a long cloth robes, and clears his throat.
"He who is without sin cast the first stone"


Ok, religious act over for me. Anyway funny how you see the same stuff repeated over and over, yet there are people who can never perceive them as the same.

[Murphie]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

What about my statement had anything to do with religion?