Ding dong the Witch is dead!

[Stromgarde]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

Japan wanted to surrender towards the end of 1945. However, not wanting Russia to have a role in postwar Japan (omg commies!), Truman ordered the bombs to be dropped before Russia could invade Hokkaido, etc. and gain a stake in the occupation government.

After all, we all saw how well that worked with Germany.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

After all, we all saw how well that worked with Germany.

lolz, qft

[Kildem]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

After 5 years of war the america killed one important person....... let's cheer and wait.....

[Caspian]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

Well, Hussein isn't dead, but he's condemned to a life of being Bubba's girlfriend and thats a fate worse than death.

[Maju]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

Not even close. There's a difference between doing something because it's possible and having to do something because it must be done.

I'll drop this subject after this but here you basically say: Nukes --> Iraq because it "must be done". I say it can't be necessary to kill millions of innocents so you can merely reduce the threat of a possible terrorist attack that kills a dozen people, or maybe more if it's an especially devastating plan, but I doubt anything like the 9/11 attack is possible anymore thanks to the increased security measures everywhere in America. Not to mention it would anger every Muslim in the world and America would become less safe than ever.

Actually, Japan does have one of the best military forces of today. Do you even know what prevents them from becoming the best military (yes, posibly even better than the United States Military)? Their own constitution, the only thing it has to do with America defending them is we'll drop our defensive (not necessarily offensive either *wink*) agreements with them.

I don't know how many troops and how many tanks and ships and whatever the Japanese have (I'm honestly not interested), however, I do know their constitution forbids war and military force must only be used in self-defense (it is up to debate whether they broke that law or not when they sent forces to the Middle East). Now if only every country in the world followed a rule like that we wouldn't even need armed forces and government funds could be spent on something that is actually good for the people. Sigh, too bad it's an utopia.

As for the rest, as Grandma stated-take it to PM if you want.

My first post was a bit offensive and I'm sorry about that, but there is no reason to take a good discussion to PMs as long as it doesn't become a flame war.

Japan wanted to surrender towards the end of 1945. However, not wanting Russia to have a role in postwar Japan (omg commies!), Truman ordered the bombs to be dropped before Russia could invade Hokkaido, etc. and gain a stake in the occupation government.

After all, we all saw how well that worked with Germany.

That's an interesting thought. I never realized the Soviet Union probably had plans for Japan as well. However, I figured the bombs were also meant to intimidate the Soviets, who at this point did not yet have nukes of their own.

Yeah, the DDR was a mess. It probably wouldn't have been very different in Japan.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

The Dance Dance Revolution? ;.; I don't follow.

As a show of force, yes, the nukes were used. It was at that instant that the prowess of America was seen. Thankfully, the Reds backed off, because who knows where Japan would be at without being modeled in America's economic image? (No Nintendo and no Sony ;.

But the pros and cons of the situation were such that the Russian and American governments began the Cold War. Let's be thankful that there was never a full scale war, and something like the Cuban Missile Crisis was averted.

I think giving the ultimate power in the world to a few self-idealistic figurehead maniacs is dangerous.

But then again, if the aliens invade and we don't have nukes, we're screwed. So I'm a strong supporter of No Nukes on Humans.

[Rodin]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

I think giving the ultimate power in the world to a few self-idealistic figurehead maniacs is dangerous.

QFT

I belive the reason that other countries hate America, isn't because they think we're pig-headed, self-indulgent, and assholes. I think it's because many other countries have a little too much pride. Like the thing about WWII in German Schools. I lived next door to a German couple a while back. They were in their 20s. They said during History, the only thing they learned about WWII was really the economic prowess under the Nazi Regime. They said almost NOTHING of the Holocaust is taught. And trust me, Neo-Nazis are more prevalent in Germany, than anywhere else, America coming in second for number of Neo-Nazis.

Did you know that you'll find no mention of Tian-men Square in Chinese history books?

EVERY country biases it's youth. It builds pride. It's up to the individual person to figure out how things really went.

The reason why America has been successful: Power is in the hands of more than one person. It has, for the most part, separated Church from State.

Now, what does this have to do anything?

1) Pretty much in every Monarchy, Totalitarian Government, Socialist Society, etcetera. There's always one person at the top. They ALWAYS live in complete luxury with their families, and friends.

Most extremists aren't fighting because of their beliefs, they're fighting because they benefited much more under Sadaam's rule, than American rule. This isn't a true Djihad.

2) The separation of Church and State is very important IMO. I've seen religion turn some of the most intelligent people I know, into stark-raving lunatics. I don't believe a person can make good choices when they're so biased as to think God is watching their every move and judging people upon it at every second of the day. God gave us free will, use it. He wants us to make un-biased decisions, IMO. So when you're leading a country of millions of people, you should do what's best for them, instead of what's best for God. Because all-in-all, he can care for himself .

[Maju]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

The reason why America has been successful: Power is in the hands of more than one person. It has, for the most part, separated Church from State.

2) The separation of Church and State is very important IMO. I've seen religion turn some of the most intelligent people I know, into stark-raving lunatics. I don't believe a person can make good choices when they're so biased as to think God is watching their every move and judging people upon it at every second of the day. God gave us free will, use it. He wants us to make un-biased decisions, IMO. So when you're leading a country of millions of people, you should do what's best for them, instead of what's best for God. Because all-in-all, he can care for himself .

I can't really agree with this. America has always been a very religious country compared to, for example, the Scandinavian countries. Also, Bush has been building a theocracy since he became the president. Either he's religious himself or he's just trying win support by adding a bit of religion to his speeches.

Also, power is in fact not very separated in America. The President of the United States has more power than most other regents of the world.

Also, in just about every country with a long history of Christian majority the contitution is heavily based on the Bible, and it's no different for America. It's the reason to why things like bigamy and polygamy are forbidden.

PS. DDR = Deutsche Demokratische Republik

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

TY Maju, I looked it up after you clarified /endnoob

I feel that while Bush has strong "religious" views, the truth of the matter is that if he appeals to the Bible Thumpers, he more or less has the majority of the country.

I can believe that Bush is Christian, only because our (meaning that I am Christian myself) religion is notorious for fighting wars with an alterior motive.

The Crusades took place in the Middle East, this is no different.

I'm Liberal, I am not ashamed to admit it, but I am also practical. The way this entire military campaign has been run was very juvenile. You'd think that none of these generals played a game of StarCraft, or WarCraft, or Command and Conquer!!! *_*

Ok, I kid about that, but in all seriousness, a LOT of money, time and Human lives have been spent and wasted. We have the biggest guns, but when did Diplomacy become a bad idea?

If someone threatened me with nukes, and them bombed say, my Capital building without any regard for the citizens, I'd be more willing to listen.

Perhaps the tactic of "trying" to separate the "extremists"(i put in in quotations, because depending on whom you ask, we might be extreme. . .) from the "civilians" is our downfall.

If anyone in the rebuilding post-WW2 Germany looked at a Soldier funny, they were killed with extreme prejudice.

What message were we sending by dropping food then dropping bombs? When did the monsters pretend they had souls?

[Caspian]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

Its something America has been doing since WW2. Before then, rebuilding the country you just defeated in a war was unheard of. Usually the losing country paid all debts you incurred by going to war with them. As I understand it, its part of the reason we didn't join the League of Nations after WWI. After WW2, there was a lot more "hands on" approach in rebuilding the axis nations. American and Western Europe split Germany with Russia, and we pretty much ended up with Japan. If Strom is right, and I'm sure he is, then the reason Russia didn't get their hands on them is because Japan surrendered to us and not the Alliance at large. Burdening a defeated country with all your debt was partly to blame in Hitler gaining power so easily and everyone just going along with it. (Its sad that I remember this, but theres an old Star Trek episode where they talk about Nazi Germany going from a broken country into a major military and economic power in just a few short years.)

Offtopic, but did anyone see the video taken from a thermal camera from a helicopter with audio of the radio conversation b/w the pilot and HQ. Its of them about to bomb a building with a crapload of insurgents in it. Apparently they're about to bomb when I guess the insurgents hear the helicopter or something and all run out of the building in a big mob and start running down the street. The pilot radios in that the targets have moved out of the building and requests permission to change target. They greenlight it and you just see a bomb drop, then a ton of heat and smoke followed by a lot of not moving bodies. Pretty incredible stuff.
I'd get into the whole religious part of the debate, but I think most people here know both my political and religious feelings and I'm afraid I'll just end up getting pissed. So I'll leave it alone.

[Draco Dagon]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

I'll drop this subject after this but here you basically say: Nukes --> Iraq because it "must be done".

Not merely Iraq, the entire Mideast, including Israel if you will. But yes, if we do so-it must be because it must be done, not because we CAN do it.

I say it can't be necessary to kill millions of innocents so you can merely reduce the threat of a possible terrorist attack that kills a dozen people,

Is it not necessary? Honestly, would you rather see human civilization die just because people felt it better to let a possible murderer go free? Do you know that what we're doing concerning the WoT itself is inevitably going to breed vengeance in the mideast if we do not tame it? Whether we like to admit it, the mideast is indeed breeding grounds for terrorism, regardless of who one would enjoy blaming, followed by the Eastern world (ie. India, Pakistan, Indonesia, etc.).

...or maybe more if it's an especially devastating plan, but I doubt anything like the 9/11 attack is possible anymore thanks to the increased security measures everywhere in America. Not to mention it would anger every Muslim in the world and America would become less safe than ever.

Our security in America is a joke. To put it simple, and maybe a little overexaggerated, even a child could figure out how to attack us with a terrorist attack. I ain't kidding either.

I don't know how many troops and how many tanks and ships and whatever the Japanese have (I'm honestly not interested), however, I do know their constitution forbids war and military force must only be used in self-defense (it is up to debate whether they broke that law or not when they sent forces to the Middle East). Now if only every country in the world followed a rule like that we wouldn't even need armed forces and government funds could be spent on something that is actually good for the people. Sigh, too bad it's an utopia.

(I think you mean, "too bad it's not an utopia"?)

I'll be brutally honest here. Per-se, war is a fine idea. It tests mankind as a civilization. It shows man our faults and our strengths. Most of all, it helps us in technological advancement. Now, if we lived in an utopian society-there of course would be no need, but reality says don't even bother trying to live like you'll ever have a utopia.

My first post was a bit offensive and I'm sorry about that, but there is no reason to take a good discussion to PMs as long as it doesn't become a flame war.

Alright...

I can't really agree with this. America has always been a very religious country compared to, for example, the Scandinavian countries.

Heh, I know well over millions of people in America who would just LOVE to disagree with you on that.

Also, Bush has been building a theocracy since he became the president. Either he's religious himself or he's just trying win support by adding a bit of religion to his speeches.

Unless everyone in Congresss supported him on the issue, there is no way he'd be building a theocracy, so yeah-he's just being the typical politician, trying to gain support.

Also, power is in fact not very separated in America. The President of the United States has more power than most other regents of the world.

The President of the United States of America has almost zero power. There is almost nothing he can do that does not require the approval of the two houses of Congress, the House of Representatives and the Senate... unless of course, he wants to violate the U.S. Constitution.

[Tsikuro]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

Now, let's talk about 1732.
I thought it was very wrong for Pope Clement XII to renew the anti-Jewish laws of Rome.

[Maju]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

Is it not necessary? Honestly, would you rather see human civilization die just because people felt it better to let a possible murderer go free? Do you know that what we're doing concerning the WoT itself is inevitably going to breed vengeance in the mideast if we do not tame it? Whether we like to admit it, the mideast is indeed breeding grounds for terrorism, regardless of who one would enjoy blaming, followed by the Eastern world (ie. India, Pakistan, Indonesia, etc.)

I'm not following. A murderer goes free and human civilization dies?

Our security in America is a joke. To put it simple, and maybe a little overexaggerated, even a child could figure out how to attack us with a terrorist attack. I ain't kidding either.

I dunno about that. Thanks to all the security checks and bureaucracy it took us fricking two hours to switch from one plane to another on my trip there a month ago. But on the other hand the boarding card actually asked me if I have been involved in genocide.

I'll be brutally honest here. Per-se, war is a fine idea. It tests mankind as a civilization. It shows man our faults and our strengths. Most of all, it helps us in technological advancement. Now, if we lived in an utopian society-there of course would be no need, but reality says don't even bother trying to live like you'll ever have a utopia.

War is not a good way to show our strenghts and faults because war itself is a fault. An advanced species does not kill its own kin.

Heh, I know well over millions of people in America who would just LOVE to disagree with you on that.

I know, however, if we measure, for example, church attendance, America would easily beat every Scandinavian country. My experience tells me it's pretty much only elderly people who regularly go to church in Northern Europe and the churches are rapidly losing members.

The President of the United States of America has almost zero power. There is almost nothing he can do that does not require the approval of the two houses of Congress, the House of Representatives and the Senate... unless of course, he wants to violate the U.S. Constitution.

I would be lying if I told you I've studied American goverment form, however, a while I ago I read this nice article about what Bush has been doing.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/04/30/examples_of_the_presidents_signing_statements/

To me this looks like the president can interpret the contitution any way he sees fit.

Anyway, the impression I've got is that your president has more power than any prime minister and most other presidents in the world.

[Omni]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

lets please not take this into the religious arena. its going to get nothing but ugly.

i hope everyone knows by now theres not clear cut answer for anything in this life. if there was, no one would have any problems. everyone would be even-steven by now.

I dunno about that. Thanks to all the security checks and bureaucracy it took us fricking two hours to switch from one plane to another on my trip there a month ago.

Actually 2 hours is nothing when people are just running through the motions. Because you had to wait doesnt mean you are any more safe now.

I work near LAX here in california and my office building over looks the tarmack. Heck, where I park my car, I can wander around and get myself onto the runway, undetected. What prevents me from carrying a backpack full of explosives? or a duffel bag with an disassebled rpg? I can get so close to the runway its not even funny.

The other day, the Isreali airline (forgot the name) was landing at LAX on my way back from lunch. they have a handful of LAPD patrolling around the runway and on the look out whenever these planes land but really, what stops me from whipping out a rpg from my trunk as I drive by on Aviation Blvd (a major street that runs right behind the runway and is separated by 2 chain link fences)?

So really, just because its a slight inconvience for most travellers, it isnt that much safer to be honest, just more irritated.

War is not a good way to show our strenghts and faults because war itself is a fault. An advanced species does not kill its own kin.

Honestly, I hate war myself. I really do. However, I really dont think we can avoid it. JFK said: "those that make peaceful resolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable"

Dont you think this is a pretty solid of an idea? If someone doesnt want to stop opressing people or hurting others, how will you make them stop, by asking nicely? I sincerely doubt it. A great example is france's appeasement policy it took with germany before WWII.

The only way is to beat them down till the submit. For lack of a better description.

Now many people will say, well its none of our business. It's not our place to say what and how such and such government should treats its people. True perhaps. I do think it is just as wrong to sit back and watch people suffer when you can help out. If you see some guy robbing a lady and beating her, would you sit back and not do anything when you have a camera in your hand or better yet, if you had a bat in your hand, you'd let the man beat the lady since its not your business? no. Then theres always the arguement of where to draw the line, I think this is were the hearts of men break down. That line is always debatable.

In the end, more times than not, does the result end up being beneficial? Yea... usually.

taru edit: spelling and clarity.

[Tsikuro]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

The Jews were very upset, so I'm sure there could've been some other way (that we could all agree on) for him to express his anger towards them.

1732 was a hell of a year, I still get upset just thinking about it.