Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

I think they just fucked up in the design phase like they did so many other aspects of the game.

This. Very very much this.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

I think they just fucked up in the design phase like they did so many other aspects of the game. They don't provide enough incentives to leave them out, just like they don't provide enough incentives to leave ToAU camps or try mobs that aren't harmless.

I think its more to the end that they underestimated the culture within the game and how conservatively everything is done. They assumed that most players seek challenge when most players seek to take the easiest way out. They couldn't see that when they were making offline games, they couldn't see how their own native culture took to it and probably only had a minor knowledge of how other cultures take to it.

Hate to say it, but it is a reflection of the conservative, corporate structure and that side came more from Japan than the western side. The Japanese players imprinted that style into the game, those enamored with the Japanese culture readily accepted that style while the rest of us opted to tolerate it.

There's also the brand factor. Just like some people play Final Fantasy and no other RPGs, they'll take one path and forsake all others. This is actually a recurring symptom of MMOs with popular brand names. Warcraft, Final Fantasy are tremendously popular, its bound to attract people who won't take risks because they're not risky franchises in the first place.

Other MMOs people will explore, other MMOs need before greed will be observed, other MMOs will attract more seasoned, grown up players. Franchised MMOs will not unless they make it so they disarm certain behaviors.

FFXIV has the opportunity to establish a community that is more adventurous, the fact that the Japanese won't have a three year advantage to set the tone will affect things very dramatically if western players don't end up bowing and scraping before the Japanese as they have in FFXI. This one needs to be treated like everyone's turf, not just Japan's turf.

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

I think its more to the end that they underestimated the culture within the game and how conservatively everything is done. They assumed that most players seek challenge when most players seek to take the easiest way out. They couldn't see that when they were making offline games, they couldn't see how their own native culture took to it and probably only had a minor knowledge of how other cultures take to it.

Wait what? It hardly struck me as conservative when SE saw how people were using Ninja and decided to run with it.

They fucked up SMN, simple as that. Not to the point where it's unplayable, but it's pretty clear that it was poorly implemented. SE's excuse has always been that SMN is too hard to balance, that any little adjustments could have dramatic effects on game balance and to an extent I agree. Avatars have the potential to become very, very broken; but so does everything else in the game.

I honestly believe they've just been picking their asses with this issue in favor of others for various reasons (job popularity, etc)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

Regarding the topic of avatars: While it's true that it's literally fruitless to leave an avatar out, I'm not convinced it wasn't part of the original design. For starters there's perp cost down gear, and more importantly there's the fact that many Avatar abilities are powered up with more TP - TP that is lost as soon as you dismiss the avatar. It wouldn't be too radical a thought.

You know how I always say that jobs earn their soloablity in FFXI? I think that's part of the reasoning behind perp cost. If there was no perp cost at all, they wouldn't need other people as they could restore MP with juices and such easily. I think perp cost exists as a means to keep SMN on a leash and -perp gear is means of just giving it a bit more length to keep it in check.

I see it as more solo endurance that allows SMN to perform some unique solo feats while keeping it from being the most overpowered job in the game. Avatar melee is just part of the solo dimension and avatars aren't that far removed from other kinds of pets when it comes to durability, they just have power so long as they have MP.

If Avatars were meant to melee all the time, I think they TP they gained would be put to more effective use than it is now. SE tried to get them to use that TP with their inclusion in skillchains but even with the blood pact adjustmenst they never do that anyway. The reason isn't just that no one does skillchains, but that much like with magic bursting AMs, it takes too much coordination and its often too difficult to do.

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

You know how I always say that jobs earn their soloablity in FFXI? I think that's part of the reasoning behind perp cost.

In a game designed with a heavy emphasis on party play. Even BST was apparently meant for PT play, it just happened to have the best tool set for soloing.

If Avatars were meant to melee all the time,

Stop right there. Though I'm sure you don't mean this literally, no one would do this even if it was practical to leave them out. Sooner or later the drain on your MP is going to catch up to you so no, leaving them out all the time would be silly (unless SE ever allows us to rest while an avatar is out... which would be sweet.)

I agree with you about them being the "Air Strike" guy, but that honestly only seems to apply to Astral Flow, even that gets eclipsed (at least for 1 on 1) by the 70 (and more recently) the 75 Rages.

Side Note: While I'm on the subject, RNG has the same problem with EES and I see no reason not to at least double it's power given how frequently RNG can slugshot for more damage.


A modest boost to avatar melee so that building TP isn't counter-productive (they give mobs a lot of TP...) and some fine-tuning of each blood pact would be nice. I mean, why exactly did they remove the damage increase for lower level targets from blood pacts for one thing, and why can't they make summoning magic skill have a meaningful impact on every pact? Yeah the skill over the cap thing is nice but... it's still silly. Nor does it change the fact that Hastega wears off too soon, and Frost Armor & Crimson Howl blow chunks.

For a job who's supposed to trade off large amounts of MP (more than any other job) for nice big shiny effect, it just feels all to often that you're not getting your MP's worth. Certainly not compared to a BLM Magic Bursting Burst II for over 3000 damage >_> (and don't start with the hate-free crap as it's becoming increasingly irrelevant ever since PLD got Atonement)

And am I going crazy or did YM actually thank me

[Takelli]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

Stop right there. Though I'm sure you don't mean this literally, no one would do this even if it was practical to leave them out. Sooner or later the drain on your MP is going to catch up to you so no, leaving them out all the time would be silly (unless SE ever allows us to rest while an avatar is out... which would be sweet.)

Other than Carby, leaving out an avatar is useless. SE does need to increase Avatar's Damage, Acc, Elemental Weakness/Strengths with avatars. That would make them a bit more practical to keep them out so they can melee, which will help parties kill even faster for using a party slot for a support type job. They also need to change blood pacts slightly as well, and make elementals more useful to party members (Fire increases parties Str, Wind: Agi, Earth: Vit, Lightning: Dex, ect...)

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

And am I going crazy or did YM actually thank me

If there is one thing we agree on it's that S-E screwed up the Summoner design hard, and are only recently trying to backtrack and patch all the myriad problems that their flawed design was responsible for in the first place. It's really only on the details where we . . . vary, shall I say.

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

It's really only on the details where we . . . vary, shall I say.

And that's perfectly fair. But we're in agreement then.

Wonder how summoning will work in XIV O.o? Just once, it'd be so amazingly f'ing cool if instead of having a pet or a 1-time attack, you become the summon, for as long as your MP will hold out.

[Kailea]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

And that's perfectly fair. But we're in agreement then.

Wonder how summoning will work in XIV O.o? Just once, it'd be so amazingly f'ing cool if instead of having a pet or a 1-time attack, you become the summon, for as long as your MP will hold out.

if my "Mithra" can transform into a super fighting robot *you hear mega man being sung in the background* .... hey I told you guys to leave! *cough* anyway, yeah I would be happy ;p

[Takelli]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

Haha. That would rock. I'd love to be able to turn into Shiva, or Levaithan, and reak havoc among the monsters (Ot towns if they allow PvP J/K) XD

[Karinya]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

Regarding the topic of avatars: While it's true that it's literally fruitless to leave an avatar out,

I think it's misleading to call that "true". It is true in many situations, which IMO is not the same thing.

I'm not convinced it wasn't part of the original design. For starters there's perp cost down gear,

Mostly added later, wasn't it? That's not evidence of the original design any more than the later-added enmity gear for NINs.

and more importantly there's the fact that many Avatar abilities are powered up with more TP - TP that is lost as soon as you dismiss the avatar.

I think SE intended avatar melee to be used in some situations and not in others. It's quite useful for soloing, for example. But it's not so great on VT-IT mobs, so don't use it on them. IIRC fewer than half of avatar abilities actually use TP - mainly nukes - and all abilities that are worth using with TP are also worth using without TP.

If that was their intent, then I think they have achieved it just fine and the job is not broken at all. SMNs keep their avatars out in some settings and summon-BP-dismiss in others. They can deal damage, but it's not always the most useful thing to do in a party full of other damage dealers that *can't* do anything else.

When a job has as many different options as SMN, I think it was probably intended to use them differently in different situations. Avatar melee, in particular, is a tool that is not usually useful in parties. I don't think that's a problem.

I think they just fucked up in the design phase like they did so many other aspects of the game. They don't provide enough incentives to leave them out, just like they don't provide enough incentives to leave ToAU camps or try mobs that aren't harmless.

How many incentives are "enough"? Do you really want SMN to play like BST or DRG where the pet is meleeing 100% of the time? I think it's quite clear SE doesn't want that, and they took steps to make sure it wouldn't happen. Fenrir is not CourierCarrie, and not supposed to be, either.

As far as screwing up in the design phase, I think there are clearly a few BPs that are too weak, too random, or too expensive to be worthwhile, some enhancing BPs could really use longer *base* duration (in addition to the skill over cap thing, which may be nice but doesn't really help leveling SMNs), and Whispering Wind would be useful but is just too expensive compared to other BPs and spells with similar effects. (Maybe they accidentally reversed either the MP costs or the healing amounts of it and Spring Water - or even both, paying a bit more for status cures would be reasonable even if the healing amount was less.) But having some useful abilities and some useless ones adds up to a useful job once you figure out which is which.

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

SMN is something of a problem job like NIN in where it has traditionally been an "upgrade" from a previous job. In SMN's case, it's BLM as while it has some nice buffs summons are more often than not used in the offline games to wipe out all enemies at once, or deal massive damage to bosses/enemies with reflect.

But in FFXI, there are 2 problems for this right away;

1) All jobs have to be equal. You can not have a "better" version of another job, or no one will touch the other one.

2) Generally, most fighting is done against a single mob, which is where SMN's trump card against BLM (SMN is only more MP efficient when wiping out large hordes) is no longer viable. Doubly so since all their super attacks are tied to Astral Flow.


It seems to me that SE got lost when trying to sort all this out while making avatars a pet rather than a spell for a quick & decisive one-time effect. The Astral pacts can't be made ready for standard use for obvious reasons; BLM's would cry foul and Astral Burns would run rampant. Not to mention That's a hell of a lot of hate-free firepower.

I maintain that SE has really just been sitting on their ass, occasionally handing out new shinies to shut us up. But maybe, just maybe they've been holding out on us with some kind of epic OMGWTFPWNAGE update that will blow everyone's minds. Maybe.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

Missed these earlier:

Come to Seraph and preach your bullshit. BLM soloing is a very crowded affair and that rarely tends to go over very well.

Even the elemental camps in Sky? I may not a BLM75 and not on Seraph, but I refuse to believe every single BLM camp is so crowded as to be unusable.

Doesn't change the fact that you only really need one TH2+ THF and if hate is a major issue you can have SAM/THF fix that right quick... or get more/better PLD as there are times where you just can't have enough spare PLD on hand >.>

So, there's usually one assured slot for THF. That's... bad? Guess the THF can always level DNC or PUP. And, THF isn't only about TA, I would hope.

2) Generally, most fighting is done against a single mob, which is where SMN's trump card against BLM (SMN is only more MP efficient when wiping out large hordes) is no longer viable. Doubly so since all their super attacks are tied to Astral Flow.

Had a Gotoh Zha the Redolent last night, and this is what I wrote in the notes after the event:

I like Kurst's Garuda--especially while kiting. It stayed in place just long enough for BLMs to nuke, and healers don't need to cure avatars.

('It' = Gotoh Zha the Redolent)

SMN and BLM aren't necessarily competitors. I like SMN just fine, at least, even on a single target at a time.

It seems to me that SE got lost when trying to sort all this out while making avatars a pet rather than a spell for a quick & decisive one-time effect.

A lot of the BPs are stupid, but the FFXI SMN concept is just fine. There are even nifty details like how they would automatically attack any creature threatening the SMN--not even my NPC friend would do that for me.

* * *

Actually, for Gotoh Zha the Redolent, I kinda wish I can switch some of our BLMs to SMNs if kiting again, but none of the BLMs has SMN leveled. Too many deaths for our BLMs... Much rather avatars take the hits instead.

[godsaiyan]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

I don't know much about the updates, my fault for not reading about them too much, but I think jobs like BLM and SMN are good jobs and BLMs in particular i don't think really need any updates. I am one myself and it plays well. Sure not as many PT invites as some other jobs on my server but with the amount of solo camps available, there is no worries.

The SMN imo if it were to ever get an update, the only thing i would like to see is perhaps instead of BP being 1 min cooldown for each spell, maybe they could have cooldowns based on the power of spell being cast, say 20-30 secs for the weaker moves such as axe kick, or punch. and 1 min for the stronger ones. In making the smn slightly quicker at dd'ing/nuking, SE cud then increase mp costs for the weaker moves, making it balanced still, but other than the cooldown of BPs i think SMN is still a great job if played well and if you are wealthy enough to have some of the gear that helps this out.

RDM imo is already a super power job and when playing as a rdm/nin, there are few mobs that can beat it, so why ask for an update? SE could just as easily make certain jobs weaker as well as stronger so imo be happy they haven't tweaked the rdm yet.

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

RDM imo is already a super power job and when playing as a rdm/nin, there are few mobs that can beat it, so why ask for an update? SE could just as easily make certain jobs weaker as well as stronger so imo be happy they haven't tweaked the rdm yet.

Why did you bring RDM into this? It already did get an update fairly recently.