RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

[Celeal]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

And doesn't Dia have like a 1 second cast time on a 75 Rdm with the hat on?

Just a friendly reminder: Not a single Fast Cast gear is included for melee in this guide.

[Ziero]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

Sorry, I assumed gear swaps would be including for casting. Most of the better Rdm I know of always swap in casting gear when they actually cast, despite whatever else they may be doing.

My bad for assuming.

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

Sorry, I assumed gear swaps would be including for casting.

Good Assumption I figured this was a given, Im not teaching noobs how to melee, hence all the endgame gear/subjobs/ etc.
______________________________

Hey, are you claiming it takes 8 seconds to cast Repose

No im saying that was the time It was cast at acording to the log it was cast just after or on :08 seconds making it 9 seconds into the interval. which over rides his delay and takes to what I put. Regardless of its cast time it went over as the number clearly shows.
______________________________
I think i finally figured it out give me a sec to tinker with it.
(photos i mean)

ok hope this works and for added measure

to quote someone I greatly respect on these forums time to lay down some ownage




Ok in this one I undercast on my swing (meaning I missed it) the delay carry over from the spell caused it to delay like normal (Ice mages theory)



On this one the top was good because I got in just as I was ready to swing. The resault cause my spell delay to be entirely over looked and the resault had me screwing up and missing the cast over and screwing it up again.



This one Is good, It has the over cast, and the timer for the next attack, as you can see 8's



This is my AF hat its red and has a feather, it gives me a boost to fast cast, which without this It would not be possible. I guess you could say this trick was brought to you by A and F.
Also notice I have no weapons or any other gears of any kind. I also would like to point out my delay of 8, I forgot to save the photo before I logged so ill get it again tomorrow.

I will also post a Picture of how to do it with haste and hopefully refresh (its the hardest)

Also if you want to know a timing trick I discovered tonight.

At least for taru taru

your charecter will rock back and fourth 5 times on the 6th he strikes. Begining your casting on the rock forward of the 5th interval will usually resault in a perfect cast over. (some time the animation is a tab lagged, but once you get the rythim it is easier to go)

Before this i would just use the game clock which is effective for longer spells, but I think im going to start giving this a whirl.

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

As any mage worth their salt knows, it takes the servers a couple of seconds to report the results of any spell. JUST to humor you, though, MrMageo, here's the exact same test, with Slow, a relatively fast casting spell.



Attack at 01:24:42
Slow cast at 01:24:45
Server reports back on Slow having no effect at 01:24:51
NEXT attack at 01:24:54 -> 12 seconds after the first.

Unless you'd care to maintain that it takes 6 seconds to cast Slow, consider your ownage complete (oh, DO please try and claim it takes 6 seconds to cast Slow... I'm amazed any Red Mage has ever survived solo if it did, considering most monsters have a 4 second attack cycle).


Icemage

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

In fact, here's the same test AGAIN with your own suggestion: Dia.



Attack at 1:34:42-43
Dia cast at 1:34:44
Damage reported at 1:34:48
Next attack "should" have been at 1:34:50-51
Next attack actually occurs at 1:34:54

Are you finished claiming that spellcasting doesn't stop your attack timers, or have you made enough of a fool of yourself?

P.S. LOL I just saw your posted screenshots. You realize that testing spellcasting time on RDM is an exercise in futility, right? With the Chapeau in effect, your theoretical casting time on Dia is at 0.60 seconds, well below the testable limit using the /clock command. There's a reason I chose to do my test as WHM/BLM.


Icemage

[Callisto]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

I actually have AF+1 Hat/AF2 Body/Loq Earring, my Dia casts in -2.0 seconds.

That's right, I can cast on things in the past. Beat that.

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

Well I i acctually hold testing as a RDM with a Chapeau on to be of the utmost im portance since it is a discuson of timing your spells to run over the attack. The only job that may be able to do it otherwise is blue mage. If you look at my photos I clearly show where it didn't work. You have to cast over the animation. Not slightly after it not slightly before it.

Your arm needs to be in the air as the first attack is going off. I said earlier that it is meticulous and very hard to do. But it is possible to trick the game into not recognizing the delay if you cast at the right time. How ever it only works on spells that wont interupt the flow of the second attack.

I tis hard to do I cant stress it enough. Look at my dia resaults when I missed the cast time It didnt work, when I did hit it it did work. I will concede that inside the realms of the norm its not possible. (I would shoot anyone who tried to perfect it in a party.) However outside of normal situations there are always tricks you can manipulate. This one is no different it is possible to not affect your delay tmer, but in most cases it is not (if you get what I am saying). I suggest you practice a bit more with it as you clearly did not attempt what I described. That little table I wrote

0,1,2
0,1,2 etc

represnts what happens when the spell starts casting as you swing. Both timers are 0 because the game sees the spell and the the attack seperate. Or technically since it already logged the spell it can not log t again. Therefore its timer becomes 0. The Game records the attack and resets its timer to 0. The spell finishes casting In between the dealy, but since it has been counted already there is no penalty.

Its kinda in a way like the SS trick, learning to cast it as it wear, bt the effect is still on you while the Icon is gone. FTR remove SS @ 38% and it will be both on you and off you8 is to early and may leave yousucceptible to a hit. 38< may resault in a no effect. Technically what has happened is the game has recognized that the spell has been cast. You removing tells the game it is gone however at the same time it is being replaced. Since the game looks at it in terms of "if's"

If player x cast's toneskin
/check if player has stone skin
If yes no effect
If no the grant stoneskin
Player X has removed Stoneskin
Player X has received stoneskin.

This is possible to occur on the same line which is why it gives the effect of continual stoneskin. However there is a very miniscual amount of time where SS is down. The player does not recognize this because we can not slow time to a crawl. The game functions properly and 99.99999999999999* percent ot the time the mob willhit for 0 because the time SS was down for is so small hundred thousandths of a second, If the mobs does not attack on this exact second, It will hit for 0 because SS was only down for that amount of time.

So again I will concede the fact that in the "normal" instances yes this theory is very unlikely, but for those that can get good at it, the possibility to over cast delay is acctually there. Like I said it takes impecable timing and you need to find a focal point that is constant at all times, such as a charecter bob animation as I found last night. Finding a point you can focus on for each cast will make it easier and more acheivable to do in "normal" situations.

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

I can not believe you insist on using visual cues from the client. You do realize that the animations you see have very little to do with what's going on "inside the game" right?

The messages from the server can be lagged up to several seconds. That's just the way the Internet works, and status/damage messages in particular can be particularly delayed.

I just showed you - several times - that you can't skip the spellcasting delay. If you think you are, it's because you're at the wrong point in the attack cycle - it will ALWAYS delay you, somewhere, based on the spell you cast.


Icemage

[Ziero]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

In your original 'battle walkthrough' you listed it as if you were able to utilize this trick through out an entire EXP pt fight with full consistency. Now you're saying that "inside the realms of the norm its not possible"? So when are you 'outside the realms of the norm' exactly? Because delay and casting timers are always consistent no matter what you're doing.

And not only that, you tried, and failed, to prove your point utilizing a spell that with a certain piece of equipment take less then a second to cast. Far too fast for the human eye and even the in game timer itself, to recognize. All while basing this on client side graphical cues which are constantly victim of server latency and lag.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

Well I i acctually hold testing as a RDM with a Chapeau on to be of the utmost im portance since it is a discuson of timing your spells to run over the attack. The only job that may be able to do it otherwise is blue mage. If you look at my photos I clearly show where it didn't work. You have to cast over the animation. Not slightly after it not slightly before it.

We need that "No Thanks" button.

OK, maybe not. But, still...

To OP:
- You have no clue how network communication works.
- You have no clue how FFXI client tries to cover up client-server communication delays.
- You have no clue how to conduct testing.

The last one is especially important; WHM is better for testing than RDM for spell-melee interaction, since it doesn't have any job trait which screws around with timing of spells. Long delay weapons and spells with reasonable amount of cast time make things easier for human beings to measure. Easier to measure means less chance of error, and means the results are more trust worthy.

Claiming this should be tested with faster casting spell and Fast Cast means you don't understand testing at all. What is that expression? "Epic fail"?

Spell casting adds to the delay between melee swings. Get over it.

[nanatsu]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

You can tell by the number of times your character bobs around? Okay lemme say first I have some limited knowledge of client-server interaction, latency, and packets and stuff, but from my understanding if you're trying to trust your eyes to accurately time what you're proposing then you're going about it in the wrong way. An mmorpg is not like a console game. Information has to be sent to a server and then sent back to you. And it has to be interpreted each time. Although that happens at an incredibly fast speed, there's something you have to keep in mind. Your computer is not 100% synchronized with the information that's coming back and forth.

Packets of information can be delayed, sent in a different order, or lost altogether. Depending on your connection, your graphics card, and your cpu this probably creates all sorts of discrepancies with what you input into the game, the things you see on the screen, and what the server is actually telling you. You could have the best connection in the world and I still wouldn't trust it. I've noticed the log reporting attacks still landing on mobs after the log reports that they died. hell I've been smacked by a mob after it died for cripes sake.

How about this? When a Goblin Smithy is running you down he hacks your back to pieces. Yet, when you chase a mob, even if you're right behind you can't hit it. You have to run in FRONT of it. Do you know why? Because the information flow between your client and the server is falling behind. There's latency in just about everything you do because of the distance between you and the server. So it's hard for me to believe that you can time that properly to less than a second by watching how your character moves.

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

Here's another test.

RDM/SCH, without the Chapeau. Casting Stoneskin with the (lol) "cast right as you animate" trick as suggested by MrMageo:

First off, here's proof of my 8 second attack cycle here:



Now, right in the middle of this first battle log, you can see me start casting Stoneskin right before the next attack, just as I'm going into the animation.

LOOK WHAT HAPPENS TO MY ATTACK DELAY



05:00:53 Attack
05:01:01 Start casting Stoneskin
05:01:01 Attack (8 seconds)
05:01:09 Stoneskin reports finished casting
05:01:16 Attack (15 seconds since the previous attack)


Icemage

[Callisto]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

If this conversation continues further without both of you getting Timestamp you're both getting slapped.

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

If this conversation continues further without both of you getting Timestamp you're both getting slapped.

I turn Timestamp off by default since it's spammy, but I can use it if you insist. It doesn't change the results, though - we're talking several seconds of difference, not fractions of a second.


Icemage

[Callisto]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

I turn Timestamp off by default since it's spammy, but I can use it if you insist. It doesn't change the results, though - we're talking several seconds of difference, not fractions of a second.


Icemage

I don't care about the results lol, I just want it easier to read the damn screenshots.