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RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

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  • #31
    Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

    Originally posted by MrMageo View Post
    Spell casting does in no way pause, stop, skip the attack timer. If you cast a 3 second spell between the 6 second window, you will still swing at the 6 second interval. If you cast a 4 second spell and a 3 second spell you are at 7 seconds, and will attack at the 8th second of the interval.
    A post level 40 NIN can disprove it very clearly without dispute by spamming Ninjitsu while using with his Katana. The NIN can let all six Elemental: Ni throw at the mob one after and another without letting the Katana swing in between. (12 seconds of locking one round of attack)
    Server: Quetzalcoatl
    Race: Hume Rank 7
    75 PLD, 75 SAM, 75 WAR, 75 NIN, 75 MNK, 65 BLU

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    • #32
      Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

      Originally posted by MrMageo View Post
      Spell casting does in no way pause, stop, skip the attack timer. If you cast a 3 second spell between the 6 second window, you will still swing at the 6 second interval. If you cast a 4 second spell and a 3 second spell you are at 7 seconds, and will attack at the 8th second of the interval.

      Squeezing in spells is the only effective way to ensure that your melee ability and casting ability work hand in hand.
      Again, you are wrong in that respect. And there have already been two seperate people, besides myself, who confirmed this. I know for a fact that spell casting causes some sort of delay between melee swings, I just wasn't sure if it was just a pause or a complete reset of the timer. But I do know that when I start casting Utsu, my swings stop completely. And much like how Celeal posted, when I spammed my :Ni eles and enfeebles I didn't swing *at all*.

      And casting spells has been a major hindrance for Drks meleeing as it does slow down their TP gain. And their delay is MUCH larger then a Joytoy with spells that are just as quick casting as many Rdm spells. Spell casting slows their TP gain down just like it slows down the TP gain of any casting melee.
      "I have a forebrain, my ability to abstract thoughts allow for all kinds of things" - Red Mage 8-Bit theater

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      • #33
        Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

        Originally posted by Ziero View Post
        ...Casting spells has been a major hindrance for Drks meleeing as it does slow down their TP gain. And their delay is MUCH larger then a Joytoy with spells that are just as quick casting as many Rdm spells. Spell casting slows their TP gain down just like it slows down the TP gain of any casting melee.
        This seems to me to be part of the reason why hybridizing job classes (ex: war/whm) generally won't work in this game in the first place - because FFXI is essentially a tactical turn based strategy game at it's core. What this means is that you're basically pigeonholed into doing one thing or another. Fighting or Running. Resting or Moving. Spellcasting or Autoattacking. I think it's a concept that is unfortunately flawed at it's core, to try and do too much at once. This game seems to reward more of filling a role than thinking outside the box. I'm not sure it's a wonderful game mechanic, but it's the one in place.

        Of course, this isn't really an argument about the viability of RDM melee at large, or even whether they make effective DD's... I'll leave that up to the more edumacated folks here. Still, I'd be careful when you're trying to combine too much at once.
        :: Why can't this crazy love be mine? ::

        SEVE - HUME WHM (31) BLM (19) THF (17) WAR (9) MNK (5) RNG (9) BLU (1) BRD (1) DNC (1) NIN (1) :: BAHAMUT

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        • #34
          Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

          I am not wrong in that respect, If you cast a 4 second spell in a 6 second delay it does not affect your next swing. I wouldnt have included that if it wasnt factual. If you cast a spell or comonation of spells that exceeds the delay then it will pause the timer for the additional amount of seconds for the last spell to over ride the delay.

          example

          Player A

          Starts casting refresh during the animation time elasped 0 seconds
          Refresh casts time elasped 4 seconds.
          Next sword swing, time elasped 6 seconds

          Player B starts casting refresh during the animation time elasped 0 seconds
          Refresh Casts time elasped 4 seconds
          Player B starts castin haste time elasped 5 seconds
          Haste casts time elasped 8 seconds
          Next sword swing time elasped 11 seconds

          What has happened is this

          0 seconds @ first swing
          8 seconds of casting
          -4 from refresh since it falls in the window
          +1 for cast delay
          =
          +5 to the delay of sword attack

          If the sword would normally attack at the 6th second of battle, you now have to add in the delay from going over the delay. Since we have found it will take 8 seconds to cast both spells this is a +2 over the delay. Now because the pause effect takes in the full spell cast time as well thats an additional +3 from haste cast time. The +5 from casting over delay, is added to the 6 second delay resaulting in the next sword swing @ 11 seconds instead of 6 seconds.

          ^^

          Fact

          I think you misinterperet what I am saying, I am not saying you can attack while you cast, I can chain my spells together for a very legnthy amount of no swinging. If you time your spell casting to fit between the swings, It will not affect your next swing. However If you do over ride the timer the above goes into affect.

          sig courtesy tgm
          retired -08

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          • #35
            Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

            I think everyone here understands the scenario you are describing. I think what people would like is some proof (i.e screenshots) to back up your claims that it's true.
            sigpic
            Signature courtesy of Selphiie the Enchantress

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            • #36
              Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

              I lack the knowledge of screenshots, I cant take them without the text screen going away for some reason.

              sig courtesy tgm
              retired -08

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              • #37
                Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

                I don't get what the "example" is supposed to show. x_x Is that obtained under the same research methodology as:
                Originally posted by MrMageo
                DO a little research first ? ive spent 25+ hours doing research on this. [ ...]

                AGI = WIND, FACT
                Frost lowers a <t>'s AGI

                AGI lowers natural delay
                Yes? No? Maybe?

                Then again, do I need to care?
                Bamboo shadows sweep the stars,
                yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
                Moonlight pierces the depths of the pond,
                leaving no trace in the water.

                - Mugaku

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                • #38
                  Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

                  AGI is affliated with the wind element, yes. So are Haste and March. That does not mean AGI gives a haste effect. Gear that gives you wind affinity doesn't give you haste, either. You posted speculation about AGI lowering delay (i.e. a haste) and have given no proof to support that claim.

                  AGI affects Evasion, Ranged accuracy, Quick Draw accuracy, it also acts as a modifier for various job abilities and weaponskills. It doesn't lower delay or haste by itself. If it did, all mithra and taru players would be the first to take notice.

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                  • #39
                    Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

                    Originally posted by MrMageo View Post
                    I lack the knowledge of screenshots, I cant take them without the text screen going away for some reason.
                    No offense intended here but if you are proposing something that's against the generally accepted truth of how things work then you need screenshot proof, you can't just churn out more pseudo maths, start saying fact at the end of sentences and expect people to blindly accept it.

                    Screenshots: I did a quick search of the forum, apparently you need a third party program to keep the text on screenshots and the link below is to the site for the program that Taskmage recommended.

                    Clipper
                    sigpic
                    Signature courtesy of Selphiie the Enchantress

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                    • #40
                      Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

                      I refrain from using 3rd part software on the basis, I like my computer spyware free. As much as it may be a legit program unfourtunatly I dont trust 3rd party software. I am not trying to dodge the point by not providing a screen shot. I have a messenger program called xfire but can figure out how to change the key bindings. It takes SS of the game your on and is more trustworthy to me. Ill try and find how to change the key bindings and post a SS or 2, just bear with me I am not very computer friendly in things like this.

                      sig courtesy tgm
                      retired -08

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                      • #41
                        Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

                        The chat log in FFXI does not have timestamp in it, so screenshot does not show anything.

                        Casting slows down melee attack, that is why S-E lower the casting time for DRK's Absorb-Spells from 4 seconds to 2 seconds, in order to encourage DRK to cast more often.
                        Server: Quetzalcoatl
                        Race: Hume Rank 7
                        75 PLD, 75 SAM, 75 WAR, 75 NIN, 75 MNK, 65 BLU

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                        • #42
                          Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

                          Headbutt for me only goues off about 30% of the time and that is being generous,
                          I'm not saying that it will stun the mob, I'm saying that it will interrupt the spell most of the time for me so far regardless of skill, bit of a difference.

                          Your gear only offers you 31, so even *with* all your gear you still don't have the same accuracy as a Scythe wielding Drk so there's no way you could have so much higher Acc then them.
                          He didn't say that he had higher accuracy than the Drk did, but his assumption that the Rdm will have an 80% acc rate and the Drk will have an 85% acc rate is a bit off, especially with that much difference in raw accuracy before gear.

                          And out of curiosity:

                          When you do use a sub that allows you to use it, what are your normal Vorpal Blade numbers? And what sub do you use to acheive those numbers? When using a sub that doesn't allow you to use it, what other WS do you use and what is the amount of damage you normally do with them?

                          Also this has me a bit puzzled:

                          Shadows allow you to be an effective puller, and if it happens be an efficient tank.
                          I'm not seeing anything in rdm/nin's aresenal that would let them be an effective tank, just how do you go about it?

                          I refrain from using 3rd part software on the basis, I like my computer spyware free. As much as it may be a legit program unfourtunatly I dont trust 3rd party software.
                          Adobe has some stuff that can be used to make movies, and I believe they can be used to record your FFXI stuff in the background, which can then have screen shots taken of them if you are so inclined.


                          You have the right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be misqouted and then used against you.

                          I don't have a big ego, it just has a large mouth.

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                          • #43
                            Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

                            I general use sub DRK when i plan on using vorpal blade for soul eater and last resort.

                            Keep in mind these numbers are taken off of Dolls and Pots in Sky.

                            I have 2 macros I use for WS with vorpal blade

                            /ja "Soul Eater" <me>
                            /wait 2
                            /ws "Vorpal Blade" <t>

                            This usually has me hiting Vorpal Blade @ 350-450 (depending on amount of hits it does)

                            /ja "Last Resort" <me>
                            /wait 2
                            /ws "Vorpal Blade" <t>

                            This has me doing about 300-400 (again depending on amount of hits)

                            When I free WS vorpal I usually hit 250-350 (pretty pathetic but rdm ws are)

                            When I sub ninja I generally only use Savage Blade or Fast Blade

                            Savage Blade: 450+ (@ 300 TP ;
                            Fast Blade: 250-350 (@200 TP)

                            *these #'s are rounded down to the nearest 50*

                            Personally I try to refrain from SC until I am able to contribute to a SC, say as a
                            2nd for a SAM, in which I generally POP a Savage Blade for Kasha. RDM WS's are very pathetic even when boosted by other abilities (last night I hit 750 vorpal on an EP woooooo >.>)

                            As for RDM/NIN as a tank it needs establishment of massive hate. When I have done it (nin still underleveled ATM but thats besides the point) is only in sky where I straight Tankthe Despot in a 8 person alliance. It requires an instant boost of hate and the way we have been doing it which has been effective.

                            Whm/BLMx1
                            BLM/WHMx2
                            THF/NIN x2
                            SAM/warx1
                            RDM/nin x1
                            RDM/whmx1
                            the key components are Sata WS's and accomplice

                            SAM opens with Tachi:Gekko
                            THF acomplices SAM, SATA's Evisceration and closing SC Darkness on to me
                            I burst with Blizzard 3
                            SAM follows with Tachi: Gekko
                            THF Uses Accomplice, on SAM takes his hate, SATA's Evisceration Darkness Chain on to me again
                            I burst with Blizzard 3
                            From there I simply cast sleep,bind,blind,dispel every minute or so. The continuing onslaught of the above makes Despot almost impossible to pry off me.

                            Refresh, keeps me going fairly well and the WHM usually tosses me a devotion when I hit 200 MP. At times for convert One THF will accomplice me grab attention, let me convert, DS 4 from WHM followed by a Sata back on me then back into the thick of it.

                            I also wear about +12 eminity gear which helps me hold hate even with missed swings.

                            RDM/NIN tanking is very situational, but is very effective if you can provide a competent strategey for it. Looking outside the Box helps our sky shell to be able to farm multiple locations at once. When PLD's and NIN's are busy why not use arguably the greatest damage mitigation job in the game to do the small things.

                            You can make the arguement that despot is soloable, however the faster he goes down the quicker we can move on to the next target in our cycle.

                            RDM/NIN tanking on its own is a little more difficult and dangerous. It requires you to cast elemental ninjutsu, followed by a teir 3, it burns about 360 MP to establish hate, once it is established, you need to spam bind,sleep,blind,dispel. Using Cures to cure yourself, It assaults your MP pool pretty bad but If you keep your head on your shoulders you can go 5-6 fights in a row before convert stabs you in the back.
                            Last edited by MrMageo; 03-17-2008, 07:02 PM. Reason: the wink is supposed to be ; ;

                            sig courtesy tgm
                            retired -08

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                            • #44
                              Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

                              Originally posted by Vyuru View Post
                              I'm not seeing anything in rdm/nin's aresenal that would let them be an effective tank, just how do you go about it?
                              Not for exp parties, but for special fights it has two things going for it, IMO:
                              1. Damage mitigation: Stoneskin, Phalanx, damage reduction gear (Genbu's Shield, some back piece, Jelly Ring, etc.), and the very potent Fast Cast + Utsusemi combo.
                              2. Enmity tools: Blind and Bar spell spamming for effective VE maintenance, Cures for CE/VE, Dispel for minor spike, and Convert + Cure IV's for bigger CE spike.

                              Note that this isn't a solo act; it usually require party/alliance support, especially BRD(s) and healer to remove status effects, to pull off. (Some TA WS would help, too.) I think. Gear wise, lot's of Haste, and enmity in slots don't have haste or damage mitigation gears for. Probably some MDB/resist gear on macros or full time, depending on fighting what.

                              There's speculation that NIN/RDM or RDM/NIN may be able to become some sort of cap enmity tanks with the right support and methodology--they may be able to max out CE and maintain VE at or near cap, allowing DDs to go full out without any worry.

                              * * *

                              Of course, none of that has anything to do with RDM melee; I'd imagine the only reason for a RDM/NIN tank to engage is to get some chance of parrying, and not actually to hit the critter.
                              Bamboo shadows sweep the stars,
                              yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
                              Moonlight pierces the depths of the pond,
                              leaving no trace in the water.

                              - Mugaku

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                              • #45
                                Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

                                ya normally when I tank even with my cap sword and merits I cant hit worth a crap, I would use just an earth staff if I didnt have genbu's Shield. However I still believe even missed attacks add to eminity. Haste gear is nice to have, however not specifically required. Warlock Chapeau/Deulist Tabard is a must as it let you fire off spells quicker. Eminity Gear is needed for any tank (which still leads me to belive why blink tanking is so prefered) RDM is able to equip the 3rd most eminity + Gear behind PLD and WAR which gives us a decent amount to chose from +12 IIRC.

                                I only included the fact that its an ok tank because at times I find I steal hate from a NIN tank after I WS and Burst the SC. I know it is not tank persay but you can find your self taking a few hits every few rounds depending when you drop the SC+MB.

                                Trying to compile macros sucks, took me 30 minutes to record just my first line of melee macro's I'll have them posted soon hopefully tomorrow sometime.

                                I will also include list of +SKILL, MACC gear you will need to use in space of the staves that will be later in the week.

                                NIN dinged 37 about 20 minutes ago ^^ thank god. Im glad I could ride along with my LS mate and his PLD, got to give NIN/BLM a ride, was pretty fun justa breif into it to not get off topic.

                                Droping a Huton followed by blade: RIN > Avalanche axe and poping a Hyoton (followed by rest of cycle), was a lot of fun, expensive but enjoyable and worth more damage then my lolkatanas at that lvl.

                                sig courtesy tgm
                                retired -08

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