Pandy Warden Killed last night!

[Aksannyi]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Oh and PS can we have the auto-resize for huge images back? I hate scrolling to read posts.

The logging at Khim thing was an entirely ridiculous example, to prove a point. Logging is ridiculous. You shouldn't be able to "log off and hide" to avoid an attack.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

I think you're totally missing the point. Fighting a mob is not logging out of the game to avoid getting hit by him. Imagine if your Paladins did that on Khimmy.

/confused

Sorry totally do not understand what you are trying to say here. And why would the plds want to log hate on Khimmy since its so insanely easy??

I'm not saying I've never logged hate before, usually I've done it on BLM when I accidentally linked the gob. Otherwise I would have died, or I would have needed to pray my warp went off in time. Nothing wrong with that. When I came back though, I didn't expect the gob to be there waiting for me so I could continue the fight.

Sorry but this doesn't compare because you are soloing. You don't solo PW.

We don't have people log hate at Tiamat, or at JoL. I can honestly say that if you are, you're doing it wrong. Some linkshells find that to be an acceptable method, but mine and several others surely don't.

See, thats the type of bullshit I'm talking about. Why do you feel the need to impose your stratagies on other people? Why can't someone be different than you and it be ok? You are basically saying "I'm better than you because I it this way because you are doing it wrong." Again, just more elitest bs.

It's just an unfair means to get past this mob, when surely the devs had something else in mind.

And if they did, they'll fix it but until then its an acceptable way of killing the mob. I think they have the deciding vote. Just like people who killed AV with the wall, there will always be an * noting that this is the way they did it and that that has since been fixed.

Logging hate for a few seconds to clear it - while I think it's dumb - is still somewhat acceptable, but logging for several minutes while a mob does a powerful AoE just doesn't feel right.

Thats like saying "speeding only 5 miles an hour over the limit is ok but 15 over the limit is not". Wrong, if one is unacceptable then so is the other. People log for hate, people log to reset when someone calls for help on accident, or when asshats call for help on purpose, etc and its done quite a bit but just now people are crying foul.

FYI- That's why I said an Iron-man style race- the point it is that it's the type of feat that garner's much respect, and FYI, Ironman specifically has rules in place so things like this don't happen. FFXI is just a game, there's no prize for the winner, which is why SE isn't really obligated to lay down similar rules.

And I'm sure that any race similar to Ironman would have the same rule in place to prevent that type of thing from happening. Again, not a good example to use.

There are prizes for the winners, its the drops from the mob. And they do put those type of rules in place or we would be using bots and other things to obtain our prizes.

Here's another example since my last one wasn't perfect enough: imagine an NBA game back in like 1990 when Michael Jordan pretty much carried the Bulls. The opposing team's center ignores the toss-up and instead runs up and kick Jordan straight in the nuts. Jordan's no longer an issue, and the player gets a technical foul, and maybe even gets ejected from the game. That doesn't matter, because with Jordan out of the way, the opposing team can easily win the game.

Jordan = Pandy Warden
Kick in the nuts = Avoiding Astral Flow
The ejected player = Tainted win- the fans don't really respect what has been done to achieve the victory


All the rules were followed- but it's a cheap shot. That's the issue.

Again, a very flawed example. You say it yourself......."rules". Logging out to shed hate and avoid getting killed is not against the rules. You are comparing something that is against the rules to something that is not.

[Szkol]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

FYI, bad analogy. There are rules in the contest that prevent doing things like this in Ironman.

FYI- That's why I said an Iron-man style race- the point it is that it's the type of feat that garner's much respect, and FYI, Ironman specifically has rules in place so things like this don't happen. FFXI is just a game, there's no prize for the winner, which is why SE isn't really obligated to lay down similar rules.

Also, logging hate to avoid getting killed is the same thing as they did at PW yet its used on other mobs but no one complains about them. Why? Why is this suddenly an issue now after years of people using this tactic? Doesn't using this tactic for years make it a part of the game by default?

All the people crying need to remember that there are multiple things we've done over the years to kill mobs that WERE NOT THE WAY THE FIGHT WAS MEANT TO BE WON. But now they are an acceptable means of getting the job done and no one complains. Why just this mob? It's foolish and its petty and people need to get over themselves.

I would consider logging to win any sort of fight pretty cheap. And the reason this is getting so much attention now is because it's such a pretty high-profile victory over a high-profile NM.

I'll say again: I'm all for thinking outside the box to get a win- I'm sure SE envisioned lots of things very differently during the dev process, but folks do it differently and its fine. There's no exploits or cheating here, so in SE's eyes its also fine.

The other problem with this in the eyes of the players is that logoff is NOT a game mechanic. Sure you CAN do it, but just because you CAN doesn't mean it's a cheap shot.

Here's another example since my last one wasn't perfect enough: imagine an NBA game back in like 1990 when Michael Jordan pretty much carried the Bulls. The opposing team's center ignores the toss-up and instead runs up and kick Jordan straight in the nuts. Jordan's no longer an issue, and the player gets a technical foul, and maybe even gets ejected from the game. That doesn't matter, because with Jordan out of the way, the opposing team can easily win the game.

Jordan = Pandy Warden
Kick in the nuts = Avoiding Astral Flow
The ejected player = Tainted win- the fans don't really respect what has been done to achieve the victory


All the rules were followed- but it's a cheap shot. That's the issue.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

I think you're totally missing the point. Fighting a mob is not logging out of the game to avoid getting hit by him. Imagine if your Paladins did that on Khimmy. Most of the stuff we do in game (such as kiting, or stunning nasty TP moves) takes place within the game. Logging out of the game is like turning off the power on your PS2. Sure, the obvious difference here is that the world is going to go on without you when you turn the power off, but you're still not a part of that game world anymore. The log-in lobby is not part of the game. You can't fight an NM from outside the game.

I'm not saying I've never logged hate before, usually I've done it on BLM when I accidentally linked the gob. Otherwise I would have died, or I would have needed to pray my warp went off in time. Nothing wrong with that. When I came back though, I didn't expect the gob to be there waiting for me so I could continue the fight. How is logging out of the game classified as fighting an NM? To be fair, I don't like zone dot-ing mobs, I think that's pretty wrong itself. If you want to fight a mob, you should be able to face it the entire time it's got its attention on you or your alliance. People log hate at KV, for example, when it's still being kited, not as it's actively being fought. We don't have people log hate at Tiamat, or at JoL. I can honestly say that if you are, you're doing it wrong. Some linkshells find that to be an acceptable method, but mine and several others surely don't. You face what you fight. I don't know how to explain it any better.

It's not just logging for a few seconds to clear hate. It's logging off nearly a minute, maybe several, to be sure that the astral flow hits only a few people. How can you say that's a fair fight? That's like hiding. I don't even have a good analogy for it. It's just an unfair means to get past this mob, when surely the devs had something else in mind.

But like Vyuru, I'm quite sure that the community will not bother finding a new way to fight PW, rather, they will take this cheap method and run with it. I did not think Kraken zerging was going to fly, nor do I think logging AF will fly. Logging hate for a few seconds to clear it - while I think it's dumb - is still somewhat acceptable, but logging for several minutes while a mob does a powerful AoE just doesn't feel right.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

[Mog]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

people need to get over themselves.

Thank youuuuuuuuuuuu. Somebody had to say it.

[Ziero]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

And yet people frowned mightily on using the CS lock exploit to do certain CoP missions, and I think there were a few other exploits with those missions as well.

How is one ok and the other isn't? One is killing a mob for gear and the other is killing a mob for missions, and eventually gear.

Didn't SE fix those exploits? Last I heard the Mammet CS+Logout trick was nerfed.

FYI I was thinking more along the lines of take no damage from Diabolos as an exploit because the system is designed to pull you into battle with him, not for you to nuke/shoot him to death from above.

I don't know of that trick, detail?

The point isn't "These specific issues prove my opinion!" it's "SE doesn't always act right away when they can't find a perfect solution to something, here are some examples." For example, how can they keep people from swapping members (or logging out!) without also punishing people for disconnections? People who show up late? And what about those longer fights where people need to swap out so they can get on with their lives; while not using swaps as an exploit?

And then you get to the point where they do things that they know are stupid, to appease the fanbase; see Nomad Moogles in Selbina.

They could easily have put PW in it's own special zone where only a limited amount of people can enter at a time to fight him. See Ouryu, Odin, Tier IV ZNMs, Sandworm BCs etc etc etc. That right there would prevent "swapping" without hindering D/Cers. But the thing is, member swapping isn't just a useful and viable tactic to players, it's something that SE seems to be encouraging. All these super hard mega mobs all have multiple targets to engage, so multiple alliances are something that can easily be utilized. Infact Kirin's room gets closed to anyone not inside of it at the time of his Pop, which was changed to prevent over-crowding and such. SE could have easily limited the number of people allowed into it to a single alliance...but they didn't.

And logging hate can easily be fixed (iirc, some NMs already have this fix) to remember anyone who was on their hate list for XX amount of time. However, that wouldn't help here since people weren't logging out to get off the hate list, they were logging out to avoid a predictable attack. That could be fixed by modifying the percentage at which the attack is used by a varying amount. If instead of using AF at 75/50/25 if used it at 80-70, 55-45 and 30-20, it would be much harder to predict the right time to log out. If anything gets fixed, it would be that.

And how is nomad moogles in Selbina/Mhuara stupid?

Hell, whats the range of his AF? If they have time to log off could a large portion of the alliance not just run out of range until he uses it, then run back in and immediately start fighting him again?

8 lamps, that hunt you down, with a limited space to work with. There is no out of range.

Did they just guess it? Or simply login after it used AF? which would mean communication outside of FFXI is necessary.

There is no way these people weren't using Vent or something similar.

He might have Draw In to prevent running out of range, or perhaps the location where he's fought doesn't make that practical.

He does, the group who fought him 18 hours used it to their advantage to kite lamps back and forth. The tanks would run to one side with the lamps, hit the edge and they would get pulled to the middle while the lamps had to turn around, iirc anyway. But I know he has Draw-in.

Final Form lamps share hate with PW (the other forms do not). So even if they are out of range for AF, the current line of thinking is that anyone on the hate list is gonna die anyway because they will be crippled by Hellsnap, Cackle (which gives -50 MDB among other things) and a barrage of Blizzard IV, Thunder IV and -ga IIIs. I believe they are logging out before the 25% intervals so they are removed from the hate list after PW cannot target them after its current target is floored.

I thought all form's lamp's had semi-shared hate? The problem isn't the barrage of -ga spells, it's the fact at certain intervals, he fast-casts new Avatar lamps who all AF at the same time, spreading out all over the field, literally filling the room with death.


Long thread is long.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Here's my $.02


It's not an exploit, or a cheat, or in any way against the ToS. Their victory was legitimate, I think, as far as rules go.

~However~

I think you'll find that a great deal of players find this victory dishonorable. You can liken this to any sort of competitive situation where the victor, while staying within the rules, won the competition in a way that was NEVER intended. I'll say it once, Logoff, while being a "legitimate strategy" according to the rules, is NOT, has NEVER been, and NEVER WILL BE intended as a way to win a fight, and YOU KNOW IT. If you're actually arguing that logoff is a game mechanic (it is a SYSTEM mechanic, and is not game PLAY) then you forfeit your right to post a valid argument in this discussion.

You can liken it to this- imagine you're running one of those wilderness Iron-man style races, marathon, mountain-climbing, and swimming through jungles and rivers in madagascar or something. You carry with you a backpack which the judges issue to all the players. In this backpack, you're allowed to carry all the gear you need to complete the course, such as dry sock and shoes, climbing gear, etc. You're running the race just like everyone else, and you all arrive at the river portion of the race. Everyone stuffs their clothes into their backpacks and starts swimming. You rip your clothes apart for thread, and build a small boat by lashing together materials laying next to the riverside, and you rip apart your backpack and use the material to make a paddle, and proceed to paddle your way to victory.

You broke no rules, you didn't cheat, you didn't MPK the other contestants so you could win. The problem is, you turned a contest of brute strength and endurance into a contest of strength, endurance, cunning, and resourcefulness. While this is still quite an admirable achievement, it's not really keeping with the spirit of the contest. The other contestants came expecting a race, not Survivorman.


I'll state again for those who can't read (read: are dense) that we all understand that no exploit was used, no ToS were breached. It's generally understood that login/logout, while being effective for this fight, is not the way the fight is meant to be won.

FYI, bad analogy. There are rules in the contest that prevent doing things like this in Ironman.

Also, logging hate to avoid getting killed is the same thing as they did at PW yet its used on other mobs but no one complains about them. Why? Why is this suddenly an issue now after years of people using this tactic? Doesn't using this tactic for years make it a part of the game by default?

All the people crying need to remember that there are multiple things we've done over the years to kill mobs that WERE NOT THE WAY THE FIGHT WAS MEANT TO BE WON. But now they are an acceptable means of getting the job done and no one complains. Why just this mob? It's foolish and its petty and people need to get over themselves.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

The room is not small but the final lamps come and hunt you down. This is one thing we found out from our attempt on PW, perhaps the only new thing discovered when we did it, but it was a good discovery, lol.

[Malacite]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

I found out the how to kill AV, it's not the way you're supposed to kill it, but it'll definitely kill it. Just need a RNG with one of these:



The RNG can one shot it from Tavnazian Safehold. Doesn't even have to have Sea Access.

That a .50 cal?

[Gobo]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Final Form lamps share hate with PW (the other forms do not). So even if they are out of range for AF, the current line of thinking is that anyone on the hate list is gonna die anyway because they will be crippled by Hellsnap, Cackle (which gives -50 MDB among other things) and a barrage of Blizzard IV, Thunder IV and -ga IIIs. I believe they are logging out before the 25% intervals so they are removed from the hate list after PW cannot target them after its current target is floored.

That's the impression I got from what I've read.

EDIT: partially beated. Too tired to type fast.

[Balfree]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Understood. At least they thought it over.

The impression I'm getting from reading this is that the battlefield is small, and you'll most likely get smacked by Astral Flow.

Then i'm pretty sure there's some way to counter his AF or maybe prevent it... (*tries not to say STOP HIS ASTRAL FLOW*) maybe group praying or weekly church?

... STOP HIS ASTRAL FLOW

kekekekekeke

Pandemonium Warden Hat, Can I has?



duznt luuk small 2 me

[Vyuru]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Vyuru: do you really not think people will work to find a better and faster way of doing the fight? It may be a few months, but I really think eventually a way to lower the damage taken or a way to recover from it faster will be found.

No I don't, not really. For one thing, getting a pop set takes some time and a decent amount of work. I rather doubt that 50ish people are going to risk losing a popset to try to find another workable method. There may be a handful of shells trying to find a new method, but unless it's by accident I would be surprised if we saw a new method within a few months. I suppose shells that don't have access to those kinds of resources may be trying to find some other way to beat him, but I don't know. My general impression is no however.

And I think that partly because of how long PW has been undefeated. Now with a way to beat him they'll want to get their items. Too, when it comes to big bad NMs I rarely see people trying something new unless they get more powerful in relation to the mob (Kirin in particular, no one would have TP burned him at first), or SE nerfs the way they killed it (AV in particular).

Hell, whats the range of his AF? If they have time to log off could a large portion of the alliance not just run out of range until he uses it, then run back in and immediately start fighting him again?

The impression I'm getting from reading this is that the battlefield is small, and you'll most likely get smacked by Astral Flow.

Your character still stays logged in for 30 seconds.

Even if he uses AF at a certain point, damned lucky for timing it perfectly.

Taken from a thread on the Alla Blu forums

OK, Since there seems to be a lot of confusion about the role the blus play... Heres the reasoning behind them.

Their main purpose was to do Dmg on the final form with Cannonball. We did not use Saline coat at all and on all the other forms blus were just part of lamp killing parties.

Cannonball is no joke, our 5 blus together must have totaled at least 60% of the dmg to PW's final form(Anybody else in apathy can correct me on a better estimate) The Lamps seperate themselves from PW which makes PW return to spawn point when no one has direct hate on it.

This allows BLUs one after another to continue damaging PW while the rest worked on lamps.
Blue mage physical spells can deliver full dmg even when double weakened so Blue mages became kamikaze bombers getting buffs > CB > RR repeat
Each CB had a range of 800-1100 dmg with Cocoon Minne x2 Taco and SACA which always took 1-2% of Final forms PWs HP.

So Blue Mages would work on PW while rest of LS fought down lamps, Once lamps were dead Blue Mages would have already had PW down to at least 5-10% HP before it's 75, 50, and 25 Astral flow points. After Lamps were dead an Alli was built to get PW closer to its astral flow point. When it was close everybody logs off except Blus and tank, then the Blus trigger Lamp pops by bringing it down with 1-2 CBs

After people came back from log off everybody would start on new Lamps and Blus would continue damaging PW. So yes... every Blu lost at least 15-30k EXP depending if they relied on RRpins or bard song rr or normal raises.

So seems once he's down to within 2% of his Astral Flow points everyone but Blus and some lucky tank log out and log back in once the Blus do their thing. With the windower mob HP tracker plugin, and I'm very sure that some of the people there were using it, that should be fairly easy to do. I'm also sure that people were on Vent, which would make it so that they could let each other know when to login again.

[Balfree]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Unofficial windower has a command that allows one to instantly log out/close out all POL applications currently running. It's possible that's how they did it.

Your character still stays logged in for 30 seconds.

Even if he uses AF at a certain point, damned lucky for timing it perfectly.

[BurningPanther]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

As I understand it, the location in which Pandemonium Warden is fought is rather small, or at least, small enough that out-distancing Astral Flow is not really an option.

Unofficial windower has a command that allows one to instantly log out/close out all POL applications currently running. It's possible that's how they did it.

If using the official windower, can you just close the window if not fullscreen? Would it register as a legit log out, or as a d/c? I have no idea.