Pandy Warden Killed last night!

[Vyuru]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

I believe that I have made a very solid argument at this point and feel no need to reinforce it any further. Feel free to continue complaining until everyone stops listening to you.

You've made a decent argument, but honestly I can't think of anything short of SE coming out and saying everything working as it should, or saying that logging hate is fine will convince me. SE is the ultimate judge in this matter, whatever you or I think is irrelevant. If they come out tomorrow and say logging hate is ok, then my argument is irrelevant. If they come out tomorrow with a NM hate list or something else like that, then your argument is irrelevant.

I maintain that since there is neither a GM enforced nor software rule preventing the use of this widely used tactic that it is therefore currently within the scope of the rules of FFXI regardless of how it is perceived by people who have no authority to make changes to the rules.

And you'll have to live with the fact that some people see little or no difference between logging hate and the wall of justice exploit.

We'll just have to agree to disagree because neither of us is going to convince the other that their position is the right one. /shrug

FYI I was thinking more along the lines of take no damage from Diabolos as an exploit because the system is designed to pull you into battle with him, not for you to nuke/shoot him to death from above.

[ShepardG]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Kitten, Puppy and Lambykins are making fudge for a fudge making contest.

BWHAHHAHAHHAHAAH LMFAO!

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

What does it matter what other communities are saying... ?

Red herrings and all that.

[Balfree]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Therefore, it's not against the rules. BTW... Bluegartr is talking about Cannonballs doing full damage while weakend while DIV and Alla are whining about hate-logging....

What does it matter what other communities are saying... ?

[Malacite]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

I still quote Hecatomb gear. That's been around since what, RotZ? It's totally worthless gear if you don't swap it in and out, and the dev team must know that. Yet they've been around since before gear swaps were all the rage.

I think you're giving our Dev Team entirely too much credit.

Personally I'm just shocked that PW was taken down before we found a "legit" way to beat AV. As ppl over at BG said, just you wait. SE's gonna rack their brains trying to find some way to cockblock this strategy and then pull an emergency maintenance.

Bastards. AV/PW are basically our Dev Team's Cock & Balls, and they enjoy teabagging us far too much with them.

[Sabaron]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

While we're at it, let's attack the Sneak pull and Despawn method used in many cases to defeat certain NMs (such as the DRG AF NM) with fewer than the "recommended" number of people. If you despawn one of a pair of NMs and then solo the other NM, I can simply say that you suck and that your win doesn't count because you didn't kill both NMs even if it would be physically impossible for anyone to solo both of them.

I believe that I have made a very solid argument at this point and feel no need to reinforce it any further. Feel free to continue complaining until everyone stops listening to you.

Personally, I could really care less whether or not SE actually implements a persistent hate list or some other preventative measure to counter logout hate resets. I maintain that since there is neither a GM enforced nor software rule preventing the use of this widely used tactic that it is therefore currently within the scope of the rules of FFXI regardless of how it is perceived by people who have no authority to make changes to the rules.

[Feba]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

I never really considered the "die and reraise" tactic for the pots fight an exploit, but I did think it was insanely cheap.

[Vyuru]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

continuing this attitude that some people should tell others that using certain legitimate tactics doesn't make the kill legit is just bullshit.

And yet people frowned mightily on using the CS lock exploit to do certain CoP missions, and I think there were a few other exploits with those missions as well.

How is one ok and the other isn't? One is killing a mob for gear and the other is killing a mob for missions, and eventually gear.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

And when you're "just getting it done," eventually anything slightly out of place becomes fair game. it becomes OK to eliminate the people playing jobs that get in the way of "getting it done" and that, that's what leads to elitism in FFXI.

Fyi, we already eliminate jobs in endgame (and even in exping) so your point doesn't hold water. Elitism is alive and well in FFXI and continuing this attitude that some people should tell others that using certain legitimate tactics doesn't make the kill legit is just bullshit.

[Feba]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Which seems to be the bigger error?

Considering FFXIO and Alla are community forums, not end-game forums, I'd say we're in a damned good place to be talking about a perceived exploit.

[Vyuru]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

You make some good points, I dislike 2 and 3 though. My example would be the Ranger nerf. It would have been easy to fix, yet why did SE wait so long in order to do it? Choosing not to fix it for what, over a year?

And frankly I think both are about equally big errors.
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I'll also say that just because SE hasn't fixed it yet doesn't necessarily mean it's not an issue to them. For all we know they could have other things that they consider higher priorities, or whoever fixes this kind of thing could be swamped with other issues, so I don't think it's quite fair to say that since SE has chosen not to fix it yet that therefore it must not be against the rules.

Although 1 and 3 do present a pretty good argument for why it wouldn't be considered against the rules.

[Sabaron]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

...How is this any different?

• It has been around for as long as any number of currently outlawed methods.
• It's easy to fix.
• Square Enix has chosen not to fix it.

Therefore, it's not against the rules. BTW... Bluegartr is talking about Cannonballs doing full damage while weakend while DIV and Alla are whining about hate-logging....

Which seems to be the bigger error?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

All of those things are against the rules and will get you in trouble. You can't compare those tactics to these for that very reason.

Technical fouls are against the rules in the NBA, it doesn't stop professional basketball players from making them happen. Some people see those tactics as just that - a technical foul. They keep doing it because the worst they might see is being jailed or a three day ban, so they just use different people. They're just "getting it done."

And when you're "just getting it done," eventually anything slightly out of place becomes fair game. it becomes OK to eliminate the people playing jobs that get in the way of "getting it done" and that, that's what leads to elitism in FFXI.

[Vyuru]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

While I respect you as a player, I still feel that what you are describing is what I would call...

Sour Grapes

I disagree on the sour grapes. Logging out to shed hate during a fight is an exploit. They are taking something that is a job ability unique to a select few jobs, and they are not subbing said jobs nor are they using them as their main.

This is more... Nice that they won, now come tell me when they do it in a legitimate fashion.

I don't care if they're swapping members out of the alliance, and while 50 players seems a bit much, if that's what it takes that's what it takes.

However I have issues when you do something in the game that replicates another job's abilities when by all rights you should not have access to something like that. And shedding hate through logout for this particular fight, and others like it, falls under that category.

How'd you like it if some job could use say, Divine Seal, unlimited amount of times with say 30 seconds of wait between each use, and without subbing Whm?

How'd you like it if a Blm could say get instant cast/recasts by turning around twice widdershins while dancing and rubbing their bellies while casting a spell?

How is this any different?

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Elitist? For thinking that logging completely out of the game when you're supposed to be fighting a monster that you WANTED to fight is kinda stupid? Okay, that's kinda laughable. Congrats to them for killing it, but come on, SE did not intend this and we all fucking know it.

I've fought this mob before and while Astral Flow sucks ass, it really wasn't difficult at all to get to the final form. Getting a PW popset is hard, sure, but getting to the final form of this mob is easy enough that I'm sure any other linkshell can get there with enough time to play around and see what they can possibly do to get around it. But no, the FFXI community as a whole is going to take the easy way out and just use this log off method instead of trying to figure something else out that actually makes some sort of sense.

To me, this is NO different than the wall of justice, and I'm sure it will be patched.

Do I care that this other linkshell beat it before mine? Hardly. We don't care about PW, just had a member who was quitting and had a popset and that was his sendoff, so we did it. The drops are kinda lame at best, and the effort required is too much for the end result (seems to be a trend with SE lately). Pretty much all of us are more interested in upgrading mythics than killing PW, especially the more we learn about the mob.

I'll stand by what I said. Logging off to avoid something, when there is probably a better method of doing so in the game already, is stupid.

Way to be judgemental. I stand by what I said. As long as you aren't breaking the rules, getting the job done is all that matters. If SE thought that it was against the rules, they'd do something about it.

It's like people have never played a MMO before. There have always been ways of doing things in all types of MMO's that probably weren't the intended outcome but if it worked WHY NOT!? Hell sometimes the developers were so impressed that when the next version of the game came out, they actually incorporated it into it! Games are supposed to be fun and you are supposed to use your imagination but now thats not ok? Screw that. I'll warp out of Sandworm to log hate if I need to, I'll log out of Tiamat for hate if I need to, I'll swap my staves and equips, I'll swap out for a whm/blm/rdm/whatever to have a better chance at killing something, and all the while I'm doing it I'll think of all the people with their noses up in the air and I'll laugh.

Not saying you're like that TGM, but I've heard that term thrown around by all the wrong people before.

And you fucking know thats not what I meant at all Kitten. I have never broken the rules in game and I don't ever intend to. I've camped shit so many times against so many ls's that use bots that the temptation has been there. But the way I see it is, if I think of them as scum then thats exactly what I become if I choose to do it. Breaking the rules is not the way to get there. If SE makes it against the rules to log hate, then I won't be doing it ever again. Since I know that won't happen, I'll keep on enjoying the way I play the game.