Pandy Warden Killed last night!

[Armando]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

No one said you didn't have the right to complain and that isn't the topic at hand now is it? The topic is USING these exploits and why people think that its ok but logging out to miss an attack from a mob is not. You say one is ok to do and not an exploit but the other is not ok and is an exploit. One breaks the TOS and smells suspiciously like an exploit and the other one does not break the TOS but people think it smells.

You're the one that brought up the topic by suggesting that if I didn't like the the game or the way the interface works I should stop paying for it. That's suggesting that either I put up with it quietly or I quit.

Secondly, I never took a stance on the Log Out "exploit." I never said one is OK and the other isn't. I was merely pointing out that, despite being against the ToS, using Windower for a //cure5 alias is hardly comparable to deliberately logging out of the game to avoid Astral Flow. The latter provides a very real and tangible advantage within the game; the former doesn't, since it achieves the same thing that hitting a macro or typing /ma "Cure V" <whatever> does. By comparing something that yields no tangible advantage within the game to something that does, you're blowing the former out of proportion.

Thirdly, and now I will take a stance on the issue, deliberately using Log Out to avoid Astral Flow may or may not be considered an exploit by Square Enix. It's just as good a candidate to be considered fowl play within the context of the PW fight as is using another perfectly legitimate action - viewing a cutscene - to deliberately avoid Diabolos's Draw In, or to avoid being damaged by Mammets while the rest of your party picks them off one by one. Just because logging out is fair play under 99% of all circumstances, and just because logging out at an opportune moment during a fight isn't against the ToS, it's not excluded from being considered an exploit when used for the specific purpose of avoiding PW's Astral Flow. SE sets the rules for what's considered an acceptable strategy - they proved that when they nerfed Souleater vs Absolute Virtue to remove it as a viable strategy for winning.

First off they are against the TOS so yes SE has said they don't want you to use them. And until SE officially puts them in the game or sanctions them, they are exploits of the game.

Using Windower and its plug-ins is against the ToS and is not something SE wants anyone to do; true. However, that's not what you originally said or what I quoted. I was addressing your claim that if SE wanted me to be able to see how much TP a party member has, such a feature would be in the game. I already explained why that's not necessarily true.

Breaking the law is breaking the law. Breaking your agreement via the TOS is breaking your agreement. They are exploits pure and simple. There just is no debating that fact no matter how much you think there is.

My point was never to disprove that breaking the ToS is breaking the ToS. It's that breaking the ToS is not synonymous to cheating. Because using //cure5 doesn't give me a gameplay advantage over non-Windower users, it's only "cheating" because it's against the ToS. It's not "cheating" in the sense of breaking the game's rules (the ones coded into the game and dictate what our characters can do, not the ToS) or letting me do something that other players can't. In other words, breaking the ToS, while illegal, is not always synonymous with fowl play. That's the underlying point here. Using Windower wouldn't make me a cheater - it would make me a Terms of Service Breaker. That's grounds for any punishment the ToS says SE is allowed to give me, but it doesn't imply I'm a dishonest or dishonorable player.

Unfortunately, this isn't how it works. There are no judges or trials. SE is the judge, jury, and executioner so all that matters is their take on it. Its against their rules and if you get caught......well you know whats going to happen. People have been suspended over the windower....banned I do not know but if they had previous infractions, probably. Thats says it all, they are exploits and against the TOS.

I was not disputing SE's authority. I was disputing your claim that breaking the ToS is strictly equal to cheating. Using a 3rd party program to do something as trivial as changing the game's fonts would also be against the ToS, but that could hardly be considered a form of cheating just because it's an illegal action. It's like saying that picking a fight with a referee during a sports game is cheating. It's against the rules, but it's not cheating.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Is it for me to decide? No. Do I have the right to complain about it? Yes.

No one said you didn't have the right to complain and that isn't the topic at hand now is it? The topic is USING these exploits and why people think that its ok but logging out to miss an attack from a mob is not. You say one is ok to do and not an exploit but the other is not ok and is an exploit. One breaks the TOS and smells suspiciously like an exploit and the other one does not break the TOS but people think it smells.

No, it's not obvious that they don't want me to know these things. They've made lots of mistakes in the past and they've had to correct them.

First off they are against the TOS so yes SE has said they don't want you to use them. And until SE officially puts them in the game or sanctions them, they are exploits of the game.

The consumer. You've said it before - the driving force behind game making is money.

Then show them with your money and stop paying for the game. Thats what consumers do, they don't pay for goods and services if they don't like them. Use the suggestion form that SE provides and let them know. Start a campaign on all the FFXI sites and get people involved and bring it to SE's attention. Those are things you can do as a consumer. But breaking the TOS every time you log in and use those handy little exploits is not.

Frankly? If it does no harm to others and it doesn't give me an unfair advantage, yes. I run the risk of jeopardizing my account but I accept that risk - just like I accept the risk of getting a speeding ticket when I go over the speed limit by 5 MPH. Am I increasing the risk of crashing by going 5 miles over the limit? That's highly debatable. Many people would say "no."

Breaking the law is breaking the law. Breaking your agreement via the TOS is breaking your agreement. They are exploits pure and simple. There just is no debating that fact no matter how much you think there is.

And saying that they don't give you an unfair advantage is bullshit. I didn't even know of some of the programs you could get with windower. Then the ls I was in had this whm that was so fast curing that I was amazed. I made a comment to the person like "LOL What are you a bot!?" and thats how I found out about all of the things you could get. So you are saying that this person that can keep people alive like no tomorrow doesn't have an advantage over someone that doesn't have this program? What a crock of shit. You're telling me that the person that has the distance program and can stay out of AOE range over a newer person that can't doesn't have an unfair advantage? Another crock of shit. You're telling me that someone that uses the utsusemi program that tells him how many shadows he has up over a person that can't doesn't have an unfair advantage? Again...crock meet shit. I know, I've used them all. I know how they work and I know what its like to use them and then go on a computer that doesn't have them and play without them. There is a HUGE difference.

No, I have some dignity, and unlike the whiners I don't expect not to get punished when I'm caught "breaking the rules." But things aren't as black and white as "you're cheating" and "you're not cheating"; if they were, we wouldn't need judges and trials. Would you honestly fault anyone that bitched over getting a speeding ticket for going over the limit by 1 MPH?

Unfortunately, this isn't how it works. There are no judges or trials. SE is the judge, jury, and executioner so all that matters is their take on it. Its against their rules and if you get caught......well you know whats going to happen. People have been suspended over the windower....banned I do not know but if they had previous infractions, probably. Thats says it all, they are exploits and against the TOS.

EDIT: Honest question - can SE take legal action against the Windower team for providing 3rd party programs that are against the ToS? It's not like their website is hard to track down.

Could they? Yes, I'm sure they could but it wouldn't be worth it to them and thats probably why they don't do it. If the windower was a gateway for a program that could do malicious activities on their servers, then yes they could sue for damages. But courts, lawyers, research, etc cost money so sueing a young person who probably doesn't have a pot to piss in really isn't in their best interest.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

The consumer has all the right in the world to complain.

Straw man: us who are against the unofficial windower have nothing against your right to complain. It's just your method of complaining that gets us: it feels all "ends justify means"-y.

[Armando]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

But thats not for you to decide. If you want that option then go create your own MMORPG and make it with all the little do dads you want in it. If SE wants it in there they will put it in there but its not for you to decide if it should or shouldn't be. Like someone told me, if you don't like it then show them with your money and stop playing the game.

That's unfair of you to say. The consumer has all the right in the world to complain. When you see a bad movie and you comment on how bad it is, is it reasonable for someone to tell you "go make your own movie then"? Not really. Obviously you don't have the resources or the knowledge to even begin making a movie. But you don't need to know how to make a movie or have the resources to make one to identify that it's bad. Is that greatly subjective? Perhaps. But if enough people reach that same conclusion, it's a possible indicator that the movie really is bad.

Moreover, I don't have to "show them with my money and stop playing the game." If I did, I'd have to quit just about everything. Every game has flaws, and I'm not going to stop buying them just because of that. I never said "BAWWW, I HATE FFXI BECAUSE OF ITS UI." I said "FFXI's UI is awful," which is true, and that's never stopped me from liking the game as a whole.

Is it for me to decide? No. Do I have the right to complain about it? Yes.

...if SE wanted you to know what your distance from a mob was they would give it to you. If SE wanted you to know peoples TP without asking they'd have that in the game. If SE wanted you to know when your abilities/spells/buffs/etc were going to drop ahead of time, they'd have it in the game. It's obvious they don't...

No, it's not obvious that they don't want me to know these things. They've made lots of mistakes in the past and they've had to correct them. Just because things are a certain way, it doesn't mean that's how SE intended them to be. Did SE intend for NIN to tank? Did it intend for two-handed weapons to be at a disadvantage compared to one-handers? Or for the TP gain speed formula to broken at low Delays? Of course not.

Most of the problems discussed here are interface issues. They're direct results of the way the game was coded, like animations locking you up and preventing you from running, which leads to mini-exploits like switching gear to skip animations. They likely didn't intend something so ridiculous as an animation for an instant ability limiting your movement, but perhaps they didn't know a better way to code it. I'm sure there are plenty of things they learned along the way and that they would love to get right if they had another chance.

The point is, they can't necessarily go back and overhaul the user interface with their current work force. It could be done, but they'd have to stop working on their planned update schedule OR hire more people. The fact that they haven't done anything about it, on its own, isn't reason to conclude that they think that's the way things should work.

...and since it is THEIR GAME, who are you to tell them what to put into it or not?

The consumer. You've said it before - the driving force behind game making is money. Everything else is a secondary consideration. The developer isn't always right, and the consumer has a right to criticize their work just like someone who watches a movie can criticize it to hell and back regardless of what the directors and producers wanted to do with their work. If it were free, it would be different; but it's not, it's not. It's a product and my input matters as much as the creator's vision of the product.

Exactly. As long as you don't get caught its ok though, right?

Frankly? If it does no harm to others and it doesn't give me an unfair advantage, yes. I run the risk of jeopardizing my account but I accept that risk - just like I accept the risk of getting a speeding ticket when I go over the speed limit by 5 MPH. Am I increasing the risk of crashing by going 5 miles over the limit? That's highly debatable. Many people would say "no."

And if you ever did get caught, would you whine like a bitch like the people that got the ban stick for duping recently?

No, I have some dignity, and unlike the whiners I don't expect not to get punished when I'm caught "breaking the rules." But things aren't as black and white as "you're cheating" and "you're not cheating"; if they were, we wouldn't need judges and trials. Would you honestly fault anyone that bitched over getting a speeding ticket for going over the limit by 1 MPH? That's clearly against the law.

TParty is hardly a need - no one skillchains.

Recast - outside of Utsusemi, what's it for? If its an ability on a really long timer, I usually don't see the merit in macroing it to start with, so I'd have to activate it manually. And its probably not the only ability I activate manually, so I would just see one or the other greyed out in the menu til it was ready.

All the Haste out there (sans Haste Samba) lowers recast, too, so even with utsusemi its not that difficult to track at high level. SCH spoils me with Alaxrity and Celerity, too.

Again, it's not a matter of how necessary those things are. The real question is, why is it necessary for the developer to complicate simple game tasks for the player? A gamepad is hardly necessary. Keyboard and mouse will do. If FFXI had no gamepad support, and a 3rd party program allowed you to use a gamepad, would you call that person a cheater? Going by the strict definition of "the game doesn't let you use that," yes, but in principle?

Hell. What about using Ventrilo to bypass typing and communicate orally? This also puts PC users at a higher degree of convenience that non-XBox users can't obtain, and is also not the way FFXI intended for you to communicate with others.

~~~~
EDIT: Honest question - can SE take legal action against the Windower team for providing 3rd party programs that are against the ToS? It's not like their website is hard to track down.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Fair enough. I haven't touched a job other than PLD in years - and PLDs never shoot anything. So Distance isn't a necessity any more and you could remove it. My argument still holds for TParty, Recast, Windower macros loops aside, and aliases though.

TParty is hardly a need - no one skillchains.

Recast - outside of Utsusemi, what's it for? If its an ability on a really long timer, I usually don't see the merit in macroing it to start with, so I'd have to activate it manually. And its probably not the only ability I activate manually, so I would just see one or the other greyed out in the menu til it was ready.

All the Haste out there (sans Haste Samba) lowers recast, too, so even with utsusemi its not that difficult to track at high level. SCH spoils me with Alaxrity and Celerity, too.

I dunno, I've just always had a good sense of timing. I suck at math, but I always have some mental countdown of some kind going. Unfortunately, this also leads me to anticipate the alarm clock too often. I hate that.

Macro loops are somewhat of an exploit. If you were doing it on a keyboard with macro functions by a third party, I personally would not take issue with it. But software to manipulate it in-game is still a third party tool unauthorized by SE - it may still be doing the same thing, but its a windower plug in, which is prohibited by SE. A keyboard that does the same, to my knowledge, is not under scrutiny.

Removing aliasing I have no issues with. It doesn't bother me, really, but some people are just sensitive to it.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Finding out how much time is left on your recast timer or what a party member's TP is is NOT a challenge or objective presented by the game, so it shouldn't be a challenge to find these things out. There's no need to make the player go through extra hurdles so they can perform basic gameplay actions unless the game is A) poorly designed or B) the developers are looking for a quick way to increase the game's difficulty artificially.

But thats not for you to decide. If you want that option then go create your own MMORPG and make it with all the little do dads you want in it. If SE wants it in there they will put it in there but its not for you to decide if it should or shouldn't be. Like someone told me, if you don't like it then show them with your money and stop playing the game.

Basic gameplay tasks such as engaging, switching targets, performing JAs/spells/Weapon Skills, keeping track of recast timers, keeping track of buffs, etc. should be made as simple as possible. The game's challenge should be applying advanced tactics and strategies to overcome challenges such as performing certain tasks within a time limit or defeating powerful monster(s).

You can say the same thing about an offline game too. And with some games you could get yourself a Game Genie or Game Shark and solve the problem. Thing is using such things like that is considered cheating because its not the way the developer intended you to play it. Same thing here, if SE wanted you to know what your distance from a mob was they would give it to you. If SE wanted you to know peoples TP without asking they'd have that in the game. If SE wanted you to know when your abilities/spells/buffs/etc were going to drop ahead of time, they'd have it in the game. It's obvious they don't and since it is THEIR GAME, who are you to tell them what to put into it or not?

Here's a basic analogy.

Here's a basic analogy too. If you don't like the way the developers made the game, THEN DON'T PLAY IT. Just like people do all the time with offline games.

I realize that simply using Windower, in the strictest sense, is cheating

Exactly. As long as you don't get caught its ok though, right? And if you ever did get caught, would you whine like a bitch like the people that got the ban stick for duping recently?

[Armando]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Fair enough. I haven't touched a job other than PLD in years - and PLDs never shoot anything. So Distance isn't a necessity any more and you could remove it. My argument still holds for TParty, Recast, Windower macros loops aside, and aliases though.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Needing a specific distance to be maximally effective isn't the same as needing a specific distance to be effective, either. Distance would have a much bigger impact on things like standing just outside dreamflower range than on ranger, where close to the right distance is still close enough to pull hate off a lousy NIN and force you to line up all over again.

I don't complain about this because positioning is clearly just as much of a skill for ranged attack jobs as it is for thf, brd or cor. Positioning for those jobs takes skill, and if you don't like it, there are other jobs. Learn to play the job or get thee to a moogle and change to something more suited to your abilities.

I've never really seen why people have insisted they need distance plug-ins to be the most effective. With BRD and COR buffs, its something you eventually get a feel for through play.

When the ranged formula got readjusted, they actually gave players a bit more leeway in where they stood, especially so since food and gear bonuses were calculated in ranged attack/accuracy. You can't eyeball everything in FFXI, but you can most certainly eyeball ranged attack distance.

Guns are must effective just outside of melee range - when you stop swining your knife or w/e, you're there. Optimal crossbow range is just a few steps back. Optimal Bow range is a few more steps back.

And even then, the difference in where I stand isn't that drastic, especially to my attack.

So using the distance plugin to this end means you're really just hanging on to how RNG was played before the Oct 2006. Welcome to 2009, you stopped needing that over two years ago. Wonder if those guys know we got Velocity Shot in the December 2007 update?

[Caspian]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

I think everything else was covered, but where you cited the ToS about using bugs/exploits.
Yes, if logging off was a definite exploit then you would be correct. But wasn't that very fact being discussed earlier in the thread? You think its an exploit. There are others who do not. SE has yet to say they consider it an exploit. If at some point they come out and say it, then yes, you'd have a point.

[Armando]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

What's the difference between the "info" on exact distances or party member TP and the "info" on where the lamps/mobs are in Nyzul? In both cases there are relatively slow, inefficient ways of finding the info available to anyone, or faster, more efficient ways of finding the info available to people who use 3rd party hacks banned by the ToS.

The difference is simple - the former are fundamental statistics of the game itself, like your <pos> is; finding out the locations of lamps or mobs in Nyzul Isle is an objective presented by the game, with tangible rewards attached to its completion.

Finding out how much time is left on your recast timer or what a party member's TP is is NOT a challenge or objective presented by the game, so it shouldn't be a challenge to find these things out. There's no need to make the player go through extra hurdles so they can perform basic gameplay actions unless the game is A) poorly designed or B) the developers are looking for a quick way to increase the game's difficulty artificially.

Basic gameplay tasks such as engaging, switching targets, performing JAs/spells/Weapon Skills, keeping track of recast timers, keeping track of buffs, etc. should be made as simple as possible. The game's challenge should be applying advanced tactics and strategies to overcome challenges such as performing certain tasks within a time limit or defeating powerful monster(s). The stuff CoP is all about. The game's challenge should NOT be fighting the game's engine, interface, or controls. The methods by which you can input commands are merely stepping stones for tackling the game's real challenges. Imagine if the game didn't have maps or coordinates - should finding your way around be part of the game's difficulty? No, that's what dungeons and mazes are for.

Here's a basic analogy. Games like Super Mario World or Mega Man X are difficult games by virtue of the challenges presented within the game. This makes them hard but enjoyable and satisfying. Castlevania: Dracula X (youtube it if you've never seen the game), on the other hand, is difficult primarily because the player's controls are so limited that it leaves no room for improvisation or error - even though the enemies have extremely primitive AI. Dracula X doesn't give you the option of altering your jump height, altering your trajectory or speed mid-jump, or altering your movement speed. Even Super Marios Bros 1, which is still a pretty damned simple game (and predates Dracula X by a lot,) gives the player those degrees of freedom and compensates by providing more difficult game content. You have total control over your jump height and movement speed - and the game is designed accordingly to be difficult even with that much freedom. On the other hand, the player has to fight Dracula X's controls and gameplay mechanics more so than he has to fight the enemies within the game itself.

FFXI's poor UI essentially does the same thing as Dracula X's poor controls, except that it's easier to cope with FFXI than with Dracula X. That doesn't make it insignificant though - especially if so many people turn to Windower out of sheer convenience and not out of a genuine intention to cheat. And yes, I realize that simply using Windower, in the strictest sense, is cheating, and punishable. So is exceeding a speed limit by 1 MPH. It's more a question of how unethical it is.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBTbM5xXHQ[/ame]

[Feba]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

shockingly enough, Ziero said everything I was going to say.

[Ziero]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

The reason SE's Windower failed so bad, in my opinion, was the fact that if I tabbed out, doing simple stuff like typing in a search box, took FOREVER. It would lag my shit up SO BAD. Like, I'd type one letter every four seconds. Irritating. If I'm gonna look things up on the wiki, I want to get information quickly so I can get back to my game. Couldn't do that with SE's windower.

That's why I went back to the unofficial one. The added tools are just a bonus to me. If SE's windower wasn't so horribly crafted, I might use it. But if I'm afking between Faf ints and I want to read forums, it shouldn't take me 20 days to read ten posts and reply.

I've used the Official windower for years and the only times I ever had that kind of problem was when I was running too much stuff in the background or doing something with far too many things on the screen (i.e. Campaign). And there's also the fact that for some reason, when used in IE, FFXIwiki takes up a lot of resources. To the point where I could literally be watching a Vid while playing FFXI and not see any slowdown, but if I opened up Wiki while playing FFXI my com would turn into a massive pile of goo.

But I got a new com now that my 6 year old PoS finally died, still use the official windower, and even with enhanced settings, full effects, regedited graphics, doing a full blown war in past Pash during a monsoon while watching a vid in the corner, I see no slow down. And I freaking love it. And I don't even have that great of a com. I know the windower had some problems when it first launched, and it was a few weeks before I made the switch from the 3rd pt Windower to the official one due to all it's problems, but as long as I've been using it I haven't seen any issues related to it. The only time it would lag up would be when I was making my crappy com work too hard (and it would let me know it was working too hard by shutting off...it especially hated Itunes). But even the unofficial windower would lag in situations like that for me.

Far as I know there never was such a time.... There were always windower add ons that people in my various LS have been using since day 1. I could be wrong though.

The earliest windower I remember using was one that did absolutely nothing but window FFXI. It didn't even window it normall, it just shrunk the screen size and stuck it in the corner. You couldn't move it, couldn't resize it, couldn't do anything special. Any icons or such that were under it would be inaccessible unless you closed FFXI, and it would overlap ontop of any other window you had open. So you did have a windowed FFXI, but it was far from perfect.

You should be keeping up with the events even while dead. If I were an officer or someone in charge, I would be pretty pissed if members didn't know what was going on because they weren't paying attention while they were dead, or were late on picking up a raise because they were doing other things during a Dynamis run.

As a newbie Dyna puller, I like to have the layoutmap accessible to me at all times...and I don't have a printer so only way to do it is to have the image on my screen. Also, in the event of a full wipe, or even just my own death, it gives me some downtime to do nothing but hide so, yea, I can look at other stuff while keeping the chat-log visible.

[Vyuru]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Odd, I don't think I've had the text lag issues. The normal full screen does look much better than the windowed full screen though, that is a minor pet peeve of mine. Well too, that the mouse auto centers in the middle of the screen when you go into the menus, that's annoying >.<

Really? So you don't remember the time when Windower did NOTHING BUT put the game in a window?

Far as I know there never was such a time.... There were always windower add ons that people in my various LS have been using since day 1. I could be wrong though.

The part where you're dead. The part where you need to be able to adjust your Vent window. The part where there's not much to do but sit around and wait.

You should be keeping up with the events even while dead. If I were an officer or someone in charge, I would be pretty pissed if members didn't know what was going on because they weren't paying attention while they were dead, or were late on picking up a raise because they were doing other things during a Dynamis run.

Sure, they said it. It was an excuse.

Could be, I still fix my computer with a rock when it acts up so I'm no great technical wiz.

[Feba]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

People gave that reason, I'm not sure I believe much of it myself.

Really? So you don't remember the time when Windower did NOTHING BUT put the game in a window? It was still huge, because people wanted THAT BASIC FUNCTIONALITY.

but what part of Dynamis leaves you with idle time to browse/work on your computer?

The part where you're dead. The part where you need to be able to adjust your Vent window. The part where there's not much to do but sit around and wait.

Also, while there was no good technical reason for windower, didn't SE say that it was a security measure to make it more difficult for people to use hacks/cheats?

Sure, they said it. It was an excuse. Hacking tools were just as powerful without a GUI as they were with it. "borderline" tools that modified the UI, while not providing any real 'hack', like FFassist, also worked just fine in full screen. The learning curve was steeper, and there was more keybindings to mess with, but not allowing the game to run in a window was a technical shortcoming which provided no real security.

The lack of a Windowed mode was purely a technical shortcoming.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

No, both of my computers are relatively new and pretty good. And really it wasn't slowing down my net, but when I tried to type anything I was severely crippled. Like if I was typing "fucking", I'd be typing the "n" before the "f" would even show up, and add in the fact that sometimes I misspell shit, (who doesn't?) it would take me twenty minutes to type a simple sentence.

I'm way too impatient for that. Also, I didn't like the frame. I use windower and I play in fullscreen mode. Looks better to me.