Pandy Warden Killed last night!

[eticket109]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

I can explain why to use non-SE windower in two words: draw distance. Man this game can look so much more beautiful than SE lets on.

[Ellipses]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Oh, psh to that. If you're doing those races you should know the quickest routes already. Since draw distance doesn't affect mobs or PCs, the only things you'd be able to see would be things that were already there.

I know the quickest routes generally, but with DD active it's a lot easier to spot landmarks earlier on. I don't have to know the routes as well as I would otherwise.

To me, it's just a matter of degrees. The fact that Draw Distance gives such a small advantage doesn't make it not an advantage. I'm not arguing against Draw Distance, or TParty, or Recast.

I just think saying that a small advantage isn't an advantage only muddies the issue.

Of course, at this point, there aren't many left who aren't fairly entrenched either for or against any of this, so I'm likely mostly masturbating.

It's been available for one year but you've been using it for years?

Hax!

[Tickmeoff]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Then why not use the SE Windower? I've been using it for years and haven't had any problems.

It's been available for one year but you've been using it for years?

[Ziero]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

I mean the city to city quest ones for XP scrolls and whatnot. With DrawDistance set to 20 I can see my route a hell of a lot easier than without.

Oh, psh to that. If you're doing those races you should know the quickest routes already. Since draw distance doesn't affect mobs or PCs, the only things you'd be able to see would be things that were already there.

Incidentally, I use Windower, but the real point there is being able to look things up online, on the spot (oh, and Vent doesn't hurt). I like full-screen and being able to alt-tab out. Granted, I could print out what I need and return to the game, but that would be a MAJOR pain (especially since I don't have a printer at home, so I'd be looking at waiting for the next day).

Then why not use the SE Windower? I've been using it for years and haven't had any problems.

Though to be fair, I won't go around calling "harmless" plug-ins like TP pt or the distance measure thingie un-fair cheats because they're really not that much of an advantage. But even still I wouldn't...and don't use them myself.

I liked the topic better when I made it about lesbians...

Well those discussions are always awesome.

And I can't play without drawdistance anymore, just cause it makes zones look not so retarded and have some actual scenery.

Draw Distance is the only Windower plug-in that could ever tempt me to actually use the unofficial windower now. Before with my crappy com, when I did use the Windower, I couldn't risk having more on screen to add more lag to the game. But with my newer com, and improved resolution, I'm sure it would look great...but it's still not enough reason for me to use the unofficial Windower. =(

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

I liked the topic better when I made it about lesbians...

And I can't play without drawdistance anymore, just cause it makes zones look not so retarded and have some actual scenery.

[Nuriko]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

May I point out that this whole thing is starting to get a bit ugly? Let's play nice, please...

Incidentally, I use Windower, but the real point there is being able to look things up online, on the spot (oh, and Vent doesn't hurt). I like full-screen and being able to alt-tab out. Granted, I could print out what I need and return to the game, but that would be a MAJOR pain (especially since I don't have a printer at home, so I'd be looking at waiting for the next day).

[Armando]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

If this is actually true, why even use it? Saying that //cure5 doesn't give you an advantage over other players, to me, seems the same as saying that it doesn't give Armando-with-//cure5 an advantage over Armando-without-//cure5. So if there's no advantage, what's the point?

Convenience. Like auto-sorting items. Manually sorting takes all of 2 seconds that I can spare at any moment since I have about a 5 minute window to pick an idle time before items are lost. It's a trivial task, though.

//cure5 Whomever may be faster than /ma "Cure V" <something> but hitting Alt-# and then F1-6 for a target is just as quick. Using aliases I don't have to keep my macros organized as I get more of them.

Which aren't the programs we were discussing in the first place, so you were deflecting the conversation away from the intended course and I brought it back. So I took it to mean that the ones you named are programs you choose not to use because they give "a glaringly obvious and unfair advantage." So, since you use OTHER programs that give you an unfair adavantage which is cheating, that leads one to believe that you think its ok if you use the programs that you consider not as bad as long as you don't use the other ones which are worse. I clarified, not twisted.

Some deflection and re-railing. You focus on the parts that are convenient to you and ignore some of the statements that I make as you see fit. For instance, you've ignored more than once now that I've never said FFXI is a bad game as a whole, it just has a shitty UI, just to save face on your argument that I should quit and show them with my money. I'm not quitting over a UI when the rest of the game is enjoyable and I probably wouldn't find another MMO that would float my boat as much as this one - but that doesn't mean I'm not going to make the switch if there's something that makes the UI more amenable.

If you've used Ventrilo then that's cheating by your bolded definition. Ventrilo shaves off more than a few fractions of a second and gives you an advantage over any PS2 users. Not only is talking obviously a lot faster than typing, but you can talk WHILE you type, so your keyboard is always free to do whatever you need to do. So excuse me if I reduce my text commands by a handful of keystrokes!

Pretending you don't cheat by using Ventrilo but claiming I'm a cheater for using plug-ins that give me more comfortable ways of doing the same things a player can do with FFXI's UI just because the latter is against the ToS is hypocritical, and goes right back to what I've been saying (and you've been ignoring) all along. Breaking the ToS or not breaking the ToS is not the deciding factor on whether you're cheating or not. It just decides whether you're liable to be punished.

[Ellipses]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

How does draw distance help with chocobo races?

I mean the city to city quest ones for XP scrolls and whatnot. With DrawDistance set to 20 I can see my route a hell of a lot easier than without.

[Ziero]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

How does draw distance help with chocobo races?

[Ellipses]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

I cut out a whole lot of the rest of your argument, so if the "out of context!" flag gets waved, that's understandable. But I think these quotes do make for a representative bit of some of the points you're trying to make.

Because using //cure5 doesn't give me a gameplay advantage over non-Windower users, it's only "cheating" because it's against the ToS. It's not "cheating" in the sense of breaking the game's rules (the ones coded into the game and dictate what our characters can do, not the ToS) or letting me do something that other players can't.

If this is actually true, why even use it? Saying that //cure5 doesn't give you an advantage over other players, to me, seems the same as saying that it doesn't give Armando-with-//cure5 an advantage over Armando-without-//cure5. So if there's no advantage, what's the point?

The convenience features of the windower do give an advantage. Having recast timers on screen is one less thing you have to type, one less macro line you have to use up, one less thing you have to consciously track, etc. //cure5 means you can do that faster and more efficiently than someone else.

Doesn't give me a better chance of success in any sort of competition. Not at claiming things, that's for sure - because no alias is going to be faster than just using a macro, and everyone can use a macro. There's no one competing against me in an EXP party or Nyzul Isle either.

There's competition for spots in LSes. Your increased efficiency makes you more noticeable (in a good way) vs. someone who doesn't use windower plugins. Every little thing you can do a bit faster is something else you can do just a bit better. Every little thing you don't have to concentrate on is something else you can think about and account for. Just like DoT, it adds up, and you end up looking like a much better candidate for endgame events etc. than the PLD who's not using those plugins.

I'd personally like to see DrawDistance (which also provides an advantage over anyone who doesn't have it, just not a very big one: chocobo quest race thingamajigs), TParty, Recast and aliases put into the game. I agree that the UI is pretty horrible. I use the third party windower, with Recast and (once every week or so) DrawDistance. But these things give very clear advantages over other players, and trying to claim otherwise just seems disingenuous.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Doesn't give me a better chance of success in any sort of competition. Not at claiming things, that's for sure - because no alias is going to be faster than just using a macro, and everyone can use a macro. There's no one competing against me in an EXP party or Nyzul Isle either.

It does give an advantage to people that are in an endgame ls and use the programs while engaging in competative endgame activities. I'm not privy to your daily schedule or if you belong to an endgame ls but if you do participate in these activities you are cheating. Since the discussion in this thread is about everyone using these programs, it covers more than just your activities.

When I'm on in the afternoon and we claim Ixion or Sandworm or whatever, sometimes there is only the bare minimum of people on. That means 2 plds and thats it. So if the healers use a program that helps them heal/remove status effect on the plds (and others) faster, this gives them an advantage because if they'd be too slow and both the plds would die that would probably mean a wipe. If we wipe, then another ls gets a chance at claiming and winning. I know this to be 100% true, I've used them.

Is Ventrilo cheating too?

No because it doesn't interact with the game like windower programs do. Does it give you an advantage? Yes of course it does. You are able to communicate quickly and more efficiently than someone that must type. I've done it with many ls's and I can say that things are much smoother the more people that are on vent than not.

I was referring to the rules imposed upon your character by the game, not any self-imposed rules.

I said if you thought the game was badly made that you should take action and petition, complain, and/or quit playing the game. You said you play buy the rules, and since we were talking previously about the TOS those are the rules I went by. I didn't realize you changed the conversation and were talking about other rules.

Who's twisting words now?

But I'm not. I'm taking what you said and trying to understand it. You said:

I don't automate anything, pos hack, claim bot, wireframe mode or anything else that's obviously outside of the realm of possibilities for anyone not using 3rd party tools and that would give me a glaringly obvious and unfair advantage.

Which aren't the programs we were discussing in the first place, so you were deflecting the conversation away from the intended course and I brought it back. So I took it to mean that the ones you named are programs you choose not to use because they give "a glaringly obvious and unfair advantage." So, since you use OTHER programs that give you an unfair adavantage which is cheating, that leads one to believe that you think its ok if you use the programs that you consider not as bad as long as you don't use the other ones which are worse. I clarified, not twisted.

Even if we humored you, there's no part of losing half of their subscribers that's going to make the devs think "Gee, we should fix that clunky interface, that would really rake in new and old players alike!" They're more likely to try to mimic WoW's features than to overhaul the UI.

If we don't send the right signal to developers about our games, then how can they know to make our games right? If we keep buying and playing half assed crap, then all they'll keep making is half assed crap. I'd rather see a game scrapped and never play it again as long as I knew the next game by them would be better. If they don't listen to your words, then you must speak with your wallet because the only thing many companies seem to know is the jingle in their own pockets.

[Armando]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

They may be harmless to you but the person competing against you, without using them, wouldn't think so. Thats the entire point. They give you an advantage that not everyone has. You become more efficient and therefore have a better chance at success.

Doesn't give me a better chance of success in any sort of competition. Not at claiming things, that's for sure - because no alias is going to be faster than just using a macro, and everyone can use a macro. There's no one competing against me in an EXP party or Nyzul Isle either. Is Ventrilo cheating too? Because only PC users have access to it, but seeing as how Ventrilo doesn't interact with FFXI any more than a cell phone, it's not against the ToS. Ventrilo or TeamSpeak have even less to do with FFXI than parsers, and those aren't against the ToS either. Yet using Ventrilo to communicate with LS members is undoubtedly faster than typing, which provides a performance boost far greater than what Windower can do for me. Ironic, isn't it?

Well my rules say no 3rd party programs, so yours must too. So if you are using 3rd party programs, which you said you are, then thats cheating. Pretty simple, what don't you understand?

I was referring to the rules imposed upon your character by the game, not any self-imposed rules. You know, rules like the one where it's obviously impossible for me to have a permanent flee effect, or to warp to any position on the map at will.

Oh ok! So its ok to cheat just a little bit but not if it gives you "a glaringly obvious and unfair advantage". Gotcha.

Who's twisting words now?

But that would be a GOOD thing so its not silly. If a lot of people did that then SE would get the hint that there was an issue. If you buy a coffee every morning from the local coffee shop and it sucks, if you stop and a lot of other people stop the store either starts making better coffee or closes up shop. Either way, its a good thing.

Except, I'm not complaining about the game as a whole being horribly made - just the interface.

We've been over this. Quitting over the interface alone is absurd and suggesting that someone actually quit over the interface alone is equally absurd. It's like selling your X-Box 360 because you think the controller sucks.

Even if we humored you, there's no part of losing half of their subscribers that's going to make the devs think "Gee, we should fix that clunky interface, that would really rake in new and old players alike!" They're more likely to try to mimic WoW's features than to overhaul the UI.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

No, the underlying justification I'm using for Windower "exploits" is that they're harmless.

They may be harmless to you but the person competing against you, without using them, wouldn't think so. Thats the entire point. They give you an advantage that not everyone has. You become more efficient and therefore have a better chance at success.

And I'm not cheating - I still play by all the same rules you do.

Well my rules say no 3rd party programs, so yours must too. So if you are using 3rd party programs, which you said you are, then thats cheating. Pretty simple, what don't you understand?

I don't automate anything, pos hack, claim bot, wireframe mode or anything else that's obviously outside of the realm of possibilities for anyone not using 3rd party tools and that would give me a glaringly obvious and unfair advantage.

Oh ok! So its ok to cheat just a little bit but not if it gives you "a glaringly obvious and unfair advantage". Gotcha.

Telling me to quit the game is still a silly suggestion, because if you were to suggest that to everyone that agreed with me in that our interface sucks, SE would lose a loooooooooot of customers, and more importantly, I don't pick the games I play based on the interface alone.

But that would be a GOOD thing so its not silly. If a lot of people did that then SE would get the hint that there was an issue. If you buy a coffee every morning from the local coffee shop and it sucks, if you stop and a lot of other people stop the store either starts making better coffee or closes up shop. Either way, its a good thing.

[Armando]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

And the suggestion I gave you about stopping playing is because you keep talking about how SE fails at making the game the way YOU want it, so this in turn justifies why you use the windower exploits.

No, the underlying justification I'm using for Windower "exploits" is that they're harmless. I don't use the fact that our interface fails to exploit Windower's ability to make looping macros or to have SpellCast automatically swap gear for me without me lifting so much as a finger.

If the game is so horribly made that you have to complain and cheat, then why play it. Not only do you save yourself the grief of having to put up with such incompetency but you also send a message to SE by saying "I will not pay for this inferior product." It's a win win situation.

Except, I'm not complaining about the game as a whole being horribly made - just the interface. And I'm not cheating - I still play by all the same rules you do. I don't automate anything, pos hack, claim bot, wireframe mode or anything else that's obviously outside of the realm of possibilities for anyone not using 3rd party tools and that would give me a glaringly obvious and unfair advantage. Telling me to quit the game is still a silly suggestion, because if you were to suggest that to everyone that agreed with me in that our interface sucks, SE would lose a loooooooooot of customers, and more importantly, I don't pick the games I play based on the interface alone. A bad interface is just something I suck up and live with to enjoy the rest of the game - but if there was an alternative, obviously I would take it. Finally, it's even more win-win to continue to play the game using Windower - I don't have to cope with the default interface and in the event that I get caught I still send the message out to SE that I don't like their interface. At least that provides a better hint than quitting - for all they know I quit over endgame drama.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Stuff.

In the context that our conversation is in (i.e. Windower Plugins), you are breaking the TOS using them. You keep trying to twist it but the topic at hand is exploits and the sub topic is logging hate to avoid an attack AND using Windower Plugins. I never talked about anything other than those 2 subjects.

And the suggestion I gave you about stopping playing is because you keep talking about how SE fails at making the game the way YOU want it, so this in turn justifies why you use the windower exploits. If the game is so horribly made that you have to complain and cheat, then why play it. Not only do you save yourself the grief of having to put up with such incompetency but you also send a message to SE by saying "I will not pay for this inferior product." It's a win win situation.