General Discussion

[Firewind]

Re: General Discussion

Quick note: Hold Person only works on Humanoids in Pathfinder. Just something to keep in mind for if we are prepping spells but don't know what we will be fighting.

Mez: The spell wasn't Protection from Arrows. Protection from Arrows gives damage reduction to projectile attacks, not an AC bonus to projectile attacks. My guess is that it was something Yyg home brewed purely for the boss fight.

Also don't underestimate the value of non-combat spells. A Fireball isn't going to be much use to anyone if we are not seeing combat for a while. And even in combat it is very useful to know what the other side knows. Are reinforcements coming? Do they have any traps or tricks for us? Are we walking into an ambush? Are the enemy willing to retreat or surrender (ending the fight more quickly)? Did that guard detect the Rogues sneaking around?

There's also countless ways to make use of Detect Thoughts out of combat. The usefulness of spells like Detect Thoughts is only limited by your imagination and creativity.

[Armando]

Re: General Discussion

It let you know the boss mob would attack you? Go figure...

Total Defense means he can walk away from me at any time and go for someone squishier because I don't get attacks of opportunity and my AC shoots up 4 points. He had the INT score figure that out, and could've easily walked over to you if he had chosen to. He didn't do so because that's how Yyg designed his AI, I just happened to be the first one to aggro him; but acting on that knowledge would be metagaming.

And he did have an ace up his sleeve your spell didn't help us with, remember the protection from arrows spell? Just sayin...

Except you already figured that one out without my help. And if the armor had any weakness, the spell might have revealed it.

You really don't see value in a spell that lets me read the enemy's thoughts? I only wasted 1 combat turn on it since it took him 2 turns to get to me, and like I said, I was more or less obligated to take the spell and couldn't sacrifice it for a heal. The only alternative was Remove Disease. I don't trust Yyg to keep the encounters and boss enemies trivially simple. He already threw us a curve ball with Tusk and they're only going to get trickier.

[Mezlo]

Re: General Discussion

I feel it did have some value, since it allowed me to know that Tusk would continue to attack me instead of ignoring me if I chose Total Defense, which disallows attacks of opportunity so he could very easily get around me. It also let us know he had no aces up his sleeve.

It let you know the boss mob would attack you? Go figure... And he did have an ace up his sleeve your spell didn't help us with, remember the protection from arrows spell? Just sayin...

[Armando]

Re: General Discussion

Smite Evil 1/day. Since you're a Cleric you should have a good Charisma modifier so you can make use of this

My CHA mod is -1. It's the price I paid for having 2 in STR and DEX and 3 in CON and WIS. Favored Enemy would be more useful, at least for the duration of this story arc, because it's +2 attack rolls/damage against ALL goblins we fight.

Detect Evil. This has great utility in being sonar for Evil beings that you can't see. Invisible Goblin Spellcaster? It will glow like a Christmas Tree under this spell and you can point it out or realise there's an Invisible guy where you're looking.

Agreed. However, it's not mission-critical since we have the Hand of Glory.

+2 Fort and +2 Will. Reflex is good but a lot of the "Save or Die" effects target Fort or Will. A lot of Domination effects also require a Will save to resist. Plus you need Evasion to truly benefit from a good Reflex save. Everyone benefits from a good Fort and Will save. A poor Reflex save can be patched up with things like Resist Energy, Protection from Alignment, Rope Trick abuse and Spell Resistance since most spells that force a Reflex save are Evocation and direct damage spells which are kind of fucked over by the above things.

As a Cleric I have a good Fort and Will growths and my CON and WIS mods are both 3. I also have +2 to all saves against spells just for being a Dwarf. I'm pretty sure I have the best Fort and Will saves in the party. Also, Protection From Evil grants us a second roll to suppress mind-altering affects for the duration of the buff if the first save roll fails. My Fort save in particular is through the roof because of multiclassing with Fighter, and Ranger provides the same +2 Fort Save that Paladin would.

Stealth really isn't very useful for someone that wears armour that forces a Skill Penalty Check

Granted. This is not something I plan on using actively or investing in, but you never know what strange or uncomfortable situation Yyg will put us in some day. It's just icing on the cake.

Favoured Enemy should really be a Roleplay thing. I know Dwarves and Goblins hate each other and it makes sense but I just wanted to raise this issue on the off chance you didn't consider it.

Yeah, that's why I'm choosing goblinoids and not undead.

A second level in Paladin lets you add your Cha mod to your saves (this does stack with buffs from other sources)

Like I said, my CHA mod is negative and I couldn't possibly afford to invest one more level in a non-Cleric class anyway.

I would also consider another Fighter level, it gives the same BaB and will more than likely give you access to a Bonus Feat and most Battle Clerics take about 4 Fighter levels anyway for the BaB and Bonus Feats.

No Bonus Feat on level 3 sadly, and like I said I can't afford to go up to 4.

I agree that level 3 spells are a big deal, but also consider that the choice is delay level 3 spells for 1 level or delay my feat chain for 2 levels. We'll find out how badly we need those level 3 spells on the next session I suppose.

EDIT:

Bestow Curse - This is kind of crazy in all of the things it can do. Sure it only targets one guy but that one guy is pretty much going to die if you lower Dex or lower his Saves

In my opinion, Hold Person is more powerful since it allows for instant Coup de Grace, works at a range, can drop flying monsters and uses up a lower level spell slot. If I need to get close to something to cripple it, I may as well go for the grapple.

Dispel Magic - Access to this would have been an "I Win" button vs Tusk
Protection from Energy - You know how Mezlo loves Fireball? Well this means we won't have to worry about Friendly Fire as much. Plus any other fireballs or stuff like Chain Lightning and making the Reflex Saves because we're mitigating a tun of damage. This spell is as vital as packing Barspells if you even suspect an enemy spellcaster is ahead.
Resist Energy - Weaker, AoE version of the above

Agreed; but Mezlo has access to all these spells. He's also more likely to be able to use them, since I may have to burn them for healing.

EDIT2: Also, regarding Mezlo's comment on my "useless" Detect Thoughts spell: It was a Dominion spell, so I'm not allowed to burn it for heals and it's more or less non-optional to bring. I feel it did have some value, since it allowed me to know that Tusk would continue to attack me instead of ignoring me if I chose Total Defense, which disallows attacks of opportunity so he could very easily get around me. It also let us know he had no aces up his sleeve.

[Firewind]

Re: General Discussion

I'm 4 Cleric/2 Fighter right now. I want to get Greater Grapple at level 7, but it requires 6 BAB; I'm sitting at 5 and won't get a +1 at Cleric level 5. So I need to take a level in another class that'll get me 1 BAB. Fighters don't get much at level 3 (-1 ACP basically). Barbarian is out of the question because of my alignment. That leaves Paladin and Ranger, and Ranger offers me much more:
* +2 Reflex save. Only Rogues, Bards, Monks and Rangers have good Reflex saves growths, so this is kind of a big deal. Combined with my +2 saves against spells (Dwarf trait), it puts me at +5 Reflex Save against spells, which is the same the Rogues have at level 6.
* Favored Enemy to further increase my attack rolls and damage rolls against Goblinoids.
* 6 Skill points instead of my usual 2.
* Stealth as a Class skill, for whatever that's worth.

I also get another +2 Fort save, which would bring me to +9 base, +12 with my CON factored in, and +14 against spells. I'll be able to clear any DC 16 Fort Save against spells 95% of the time.

This is the last level I'm taking in a non-Cleric class, and I'm only doing it because if I don't, my entire Grappling Feat tree will be delayed 2 levels and I'll have to pick some filler feat.

On the other hand, it pains me to delay my access to Level 3 spells even more. Decisions, decisions...

Personally I would go for the Cleric Level to get 3rd Level spells and go for the Ranger level next. If you are to pick between more Divine Spellcaster levels and a splash into another class, I would go for spellcaster levels any day of the week.

Also stuff to consider for a level in Paladin:

• Smite Evil 1/day. Since you're a Cleric you should have a good Charisma modifier so you can make use of this
• Detect Evil. This has great utility in being sonar for Evil beings that you can't see. Invisible Goblin Spellcaster? It will glow like a Christmas Tree under this spell and you can point it out or realise there's an Invisible guy where you're looking.
• +2 Fort and +2 Will. Reflex is good but a lot of the "Save or Die" effects target Fort or Will. A lot of Domination effects also require a Will save to resist. Plus you need Evasion to truly benefit from a good Reflex save. Everyone benefits from a good Fort and Will save. A poor Reflex save can be patched up with things like Resist Energy, Protection from Alignment, Rope Trick abuse and Spell Resistance since most spells that force a Reflex save are Evocation and direct damage spells which are kind of fucked over by the above things.
• Stealth really isn't very useful for someone that wears armour that forces a Skill Penalty Check
• Favoured Enemy should really be a Roleplay thing. I know Dwarves and Goblins hate each other and it makes sense but I just wanted to raise this issue on the off chance you didn't consider it.
• A second level in Paladin lets you add your Cha mod to your saves (this does stack with buffs from other sources)

I would also consider another Fighter level, it gives the same BaB and will more than likely give you access to a Bonus Feat and most Battle Clerics take about 4 Fighter levels anyway for the BaB and Bonus Feats.

Personally I would just take the Cleric level but it is your Character. I personally think that slowing down Spell Progression is a massive sacrifice (which is why I personally dislike the "No Prestige until 11th Level thing) but like I said, your choice.

- - - Updated - - -

Spells you will get access to if you take the Cleric level:

• Bestow Curse - This is kind of crazy in all of the things it can do. Sure it only targets one guy but that one guy is pretty much going to die if you lower Dex or lower his Saves
• Blindness/Deafness - We have two Rogues, do the math. Also Deafening a Spellcaster is as good as silencing them.
• Dispel Magic - Access to this would have been an "I Win" button vs Tusk
• Protection from Energy - You know how Mezlo loves Fireball? Well this means we won't have to worry about Friendly Fire as much. Plus any other fireballs or stuff like Chain Lightning and making the Reflex Saves because we're mitigating a tun of damage. This spell is as vital as packing Barspells if you even suspect an enemy spellcaster is ahead.
• Resist Energy - Weaker, AoE version of the above
• Symbol of Healing - Needs Yyg approval but it is basically a group effect that heals and also harms undead. Seriously worth considering if we do encounter a lot or undead or someone can Dispel it to prevent enemies from using it
• Wrathful Mantle - Needs Yyg approval. Basically it gives a resistance bonus of +1 per 4 caster levels to all Saves plus the wearer can end the effect to cause an explosio nthat deals 2d8 force damage to everything around it.

Plus we get access to Cure Serious Wounds via Spontaneous Casting, a spell we badly need since nobody else can use any sort of healing spell.

[Mezlo]

Re: General Discussion

Yeah, that's similar to my progression and why I'm taking a level in fighter at level 9. I want Manyshot and Bulls Eye Shot, but i need a BAB of 6 for one of those, plus an extra feat, so by taking a level in fighter, I get 2 feats at level 9.

[Armando]

Re: General Discussion

Nice! I just took a level in ranger. What's your character progression looking like and what are you at currently? I'm intrigued by you taking a level in ranger, lol...

I'm 4 Cleric/2 Fighter right now. I want to get Greater Grapple at level 7, but it requires 6 BAB; I'm sitting at 5 and won't get a +1 at Cleric level 5. So I need to take a level in another class that'll get me 1 BAB. Fighters don't get much at level 3 (-1 ACP basically). Barbarian is out of the question because of my alignment. That leaves Paladin and Ranger, and Ranger offers me much more:
* +2 Reflex save. Only Rogues, Bards, Monks and Rangers have good Reflex saves growths, so this is kind of a big deal. Combined with my +2 saves against spells (Dwarf trait), it puts me at +5 Reflex Save against spells, which is the same the Rogues have at level 6.
* Favored Enemy to further increase my attack rolls and damage rolls against Goblinoids.
* 6 Skill points instead of my usual 2.
* Stealth as a Class skill, for whatever that's worth.

I also get another +2 Fort save, which would bring me to +9 base, +12 with my CON factored in, and +14 against spells. I'll be able to clear any DC 16 Fort Save against spells 95% of the time.

This is the last level I'm taking in a non-Cleric class, and I'm only doing it because if I don't, my entire Grappling Feat tree will be delayed 2 levels and I'll have to pick some filler feat.

On the other hand, it pains me to delay my access to Level 3 spells even more. Decisions, decisions...

[cidbahamut]

Re: General Discussion

Dwarven Druid?

[Mezlo]

Re: General Discussion

Next level's gonna be a big one for me - I finally get Greater Grapple, plus one level in Ranger.

Nice! I just took a level in ranger. What's your character progression looking like and what are you at currently? I'm intrigued by you taking a level in ranger, lol...

[Armando]

Re: General Discussion

and no I'm not, I'm making a valid point that there are other spells that could benefit the party more than a 1d4+1.

Agreed, but he didn't know he could use other spells until recently.

Next level's gonna be a big one for me - I finally get Greater Grapple, plus one level in Ranger.

[Mezlo]

Re: General Discussion

Consider the below contributions to the last fight:

Don't misconstrue my comment. In no way did i question your "contribution" to the fight, all I'm saying is that there are much more useful spells you can utilize besides a spell thats an automatic hit for a 1d4+1...

- - - Updated - - -

More importantly, Mezlo's just trolling you.

and no I'm not, I'm making a valid point that there are other spells that could benefit the party more than a 1d4+1. But Fire can chose whatever spells he'd like. He's weighed in with his opinions on spells that would be good for me, I'm just doing the same thing. An enlarge person from him could be good...

[Armando]

Re: General Discussion

Not to mention Firewind didn't know we're letting Wizards prepare spells like Clerics, and that Lili got her negative level back between sessions but couldn't prepare the extra spell retroactively.

More importantly, Mezlo's just trolling you.

[Firewind]

Re: General Discussion

I enjoyed the magic missle you flung at the mob for 4 damage last session... Enlarge person might be a better spell selection next time? LOL

Come on that was low

Consider the below contributions to the last fight:

1. Tanking a bombardier until it was out of bombs so you guys below didn't have to deal with them
2. Gave Cid and Jarre a ton of Flanking Bonuses to stop the mobs up top from coming down to you
3. Activating the Nexus to prevent more reinforcements coming in
4. Sniping Tusk from the top ledge and not getting paralyzed
5. Gave Jarre a fast way down to your guys in the first place to finish off the boss

The 4 damage Magic Missile was flung because my character was PISSED at getting her favourite bow thrown off the ledge and not because it was intended to be a sound tactical choice. Lili was far too busy yelling "What the fuck?" at the goblin and getting revenge on the thing to help out. Remember Chaotic characters are also not always the best at self-discipline and are more likely to break off to do something on the spur of the moment.

But given I'd already done more than enough to secure our objective and contribute to winning I think I'd be more than entitled to actually do stuff that Lili would do and not metagame and do stuff that Firewind would do. That and I'm supposed to be doing stuff that Lili would do anyway.

[Armando]

Re: General Discussion

You can't take Mobility twice.

That was my bad. I hadn't noticed he already had Mobility. If he's getting Combat Patrol this level shit's about to get fun.

As for skills, I'd recommend 3 points in Acrobatics in case you ever need to fight very defensively (like when I tried to stall out Tusk). More Climb wouldn't hurt, since we have two Rogues, two arcane casters, and a lot of rope. Intimidate and Knowledge: Engineering could be useful, and you actually have the INT to back up the latter.

[Jarre]

Re: General Discussion

Will take the 1HP bonus. What skills do you think I should increase or have additional to what I already have?