Guild Wars 2

[cidbahamut]

Re: Guild Wars 2

Where he's likely to be wrong are his assessment of the implications, as in, X is always going to be pigeonholed into Y role.

Metagaming is a reality that people need to accept.

X will get pigeonholed into role Y. The question is how often, which will be determined by a combination of how well the game is balanced and how strongly the playerbase feels about said balance. If things go smoothly a certain combination will always be preferred, but not enough that people will get bent out of shape over it. If the developers botch things, players will end up browbeating those who don't conform to the metagame and this is likely to be the default state of the game. ArenaNet is fighting an uphill battle to overcome an extremely well entrenched paradigm within the industry. They're starting this at a disadvantage and players will gravitate to the familiar regardless of what ArenaNet intends. If GW2 delivers in full on all of its promises, it might have a chance to overcome all of that, but if it falters it will slip right back into the old paradigm.

[Takelli]

Re: Guild Wars 2

Thing with what you said Cid, is that there is no way for one person to be put in a pure support type role, as NO ONE PROFESSION HAS ANY HEALING SPELLS BESIDES SELF HEAL.

How many times do I need to say that?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Guild Wars 2

For what it's worth, I think cid is both right and not. He's right in that we need to maintain healthy skepticism lest we be immensely let down, and that ANet more-or-less simply renamed their trinity, and that we are creatures of habit.

Where he's likely to be wrong are his assessment of the implications, as in, X is always going to be pigeonholed into Y role. ANet is well aware that players are going to initially try to find their old trinity comfort zone, which is precisely why they're so desperate to push their "new" trinity, to the point where their game is designed such that someone in a hyper-specialized (and "unfun" according to ANet) role ends up being incredibly inefficient and burdened with opportunity cost. To wit, somebody completely focused on healing potency and efficacy is over-focused on what is, in ANet's view, the reactive side of support, when they could instead be proactive and do something like, say, give the group a damage buff (and perhaps even take a few pot-shots yourself) so that the mob dies faster and less healing is needed.

Even if it isn't "healing" anymore, there's still cid's concern that any given player will be "burdened" with being the sole support player while everybody else "bashes skulls in". Which may even be the case if a strategy calls for a zerg rush, in which case it's a matter of game balance. Ideally, however, ultimately nobody is going to end up playing a "new trinity" role that they don't want to play, given a balanced game. What I think ANet is aiming for is for not classes, but the players themselves to be the variable that determines which part of that trinity any given character plays. It's the person behind the computer who plays what they're calling damage or support or control, not the profession that they're playing. Which would be wonderful that professions would be independent of role (as in, any job can perform any role, given the proper set-up for that role), but again, this assuming that ANet can pull it off.

[Raydeus]

Re: Guild Wars 2

You are humped back and have 4 nipples?

Chicks dig that kinda thing though, otherwise Yggy wouldn't be married.

[Mezlo]

Re: Guild Wars 2

And people still asks me why I'm still single...

You are humped back and have 4 nipples?

[Etra]

Re: Guild Wars 2

Like I said, I'll believe it when I see it.

I think anyone who thinks players aren't going to try to cling to the old tactics/strategies/paradigm/whatever is fooling themselves.

Come on, some one has to rain on your guys' parade or you'll just end up heartbroken when the game finally releases and doesn't turn out to be Jesus 2.0.

I never believed in Jesus 1.0 in the first place. Why would I believe 2.0 was coming?

[Raydeus]

Re: Guild Wars 2

I say the exact same thing to guys I know that want to get married. Years later they look at me with those defeated eyes they get and tell me how much they wish they had listened to me.

And people still asks me why I'm still single...

Though I got to say, even if it fails to meet expectations at least GW2 will be way cheaper than a divorce.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Guild Wars 2

Drinking the koolaid, etc etc.

I want this game to kick ass just as much as you guys do, but I would suggest you temper your enthusiasm with a healthy dose of skepticism.

[Takelli]

Re: Guild Wars 2

Like I said, I'll believe it when I see it.

I think anyone who thinks players aren't going to try to cling to the old tactics/strategies/paradigm/whatever is fooling themselves.

Come on, some one has to rain on your guys' parade or you'll just end up heartbroken when the game finally releases and doesn't turn out to be Jesus 2.0.

This is Arena Net though... Don't under estimate these guys. They broke off from Blizzard, as GW1 they wanted to charge for, and was going to be WoW.

Also, the game is based around PvP, not PvE, but these guys are great at balancing both, with out breaking the other.

But, back to what I was saying, these guys know how to market, and have a great fan base. The community is great, and they do things not always by the book. If anyone can keep people from going the "Holy trinity" route, its these guys.

[Mezlo]

Re: Guild Wars 2

Jesus 2.0.

I've actually already beaten this game... twice...

[cidbahamut]

Re: Guild Wars 2

Like I said, I'll believe it when I see it.

I think anyone who thinks players aren't going to try to cling to the old tactics/strategies/paradigm/whatever is fooling themselves.

Come on, some one has to rain on your guys' parade or you'll just end up heartbroken when the game finally releases and doesn't turn out to be Jesus 2.0.

[Cheezeman3000]

Re: Guild Wars 2

Like Tak is saying, there's no way to focus healing or buffing in this game, since you only really get a few skill slots that you can use for those. So one person is going to have a max of 2, maaaaybe 3 healing/buffing skills, and those alone will not be enough to keep a party alive. The majority of your skills are different ways of damaging/disabling the enemy, and those skills are required, you can't replace them with extra healing or buffs.

[Takelli]

Re: Guild Wars 2

Sure, if by "tanking" you mean "standing in one place and letting the monster wail on you because you stubbornly refuse to use the dodge mechanic".

What I think we will end up seeing is a person or two whose job will be to maintain hate in some fashion if for no other reason than to keep the monster from pinballing around the room like what happens in FFXI once everyone reaches the hate cap or the NM resets hate.

As for healing, I think the bulk of healing is going to shift to being your own responsibility. Again, if you're /DNC you're supposed to make an effort to keep your own skin alive rather than waiting on a healer. But that doesn't mean we're going to see the role of healer dissolve. Instead I suspect we'll have someone get saddled down with a twinked out combination of buff abilities. If buffs are going to be worth taking up one of your extremely limited skill slots, they're going to have to be considerably powerful, and if those buffs extend to party members...well I think you see where this is going.

Same old drudgery under a different name.

Until the game goes live and I actually get to see player behavior patterns develop differently, I am going to remain extremely skeptical.

When I said tank, I meant by getting all the monsters hate, and having them target you, so no one else would get hit. Even when using the dodge mechanic, you still will get hit. I'm pretty sure they will add in a stamina gauge to prevent you from dodging every single attack thrown at you, especially in PvP, as no one would be defeated.

While having some one to help maintain control of a monster is nice, they could have it just target who ever it thinks is the biggest threat. It wails on some one for a bit, then get hit heavily by a person, then switches to that person, then the one that it was hitting, heals, then it goes back to that person. It will be hard to keep threat, as there is not real hate generating abilities in the game that we know of at this time. Sure, you can body block, but that, on its own is quite hard as well.

As for the healing role, no one person can choose all of their abilities, yes, they can choose /some/ of them, but not all of them, as they are determined by your weapon. Your first 4 are determined by your weapon, your other four are two utilities, one heal, and one elite.

No one has a "Cure" skill that can target anyone, and heal them to full like you can with a white mage in FFXI. No one person can just sit there and mash a heal button, as there is no healing skill in the game.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Guild Wars 2

Just like if one was going to "tank" the mobs, they would die.... Horribly fast.

Sure, if by "tanking" you mean "standing in one place and letting the monster wail on you because you stubbornly refuse to use the dodge mechanic".

What I think we will end up seeing is a person or two whose job will be to maintain hate in some fashion if for no other reason than to keep the monster from pinballing around the room like what happens in FFXI once everyone reaches the hate cap or the NM resets hate.

As for healing, I think the bulk of healing is going to shift to being your own responsibility. Again, if you're /DNC you're supposed to make an effort to keep your own skin alive rather than waiting on a healer. But that doesn't mean we're going to see the role of healer dissolve. Instead I suspect we'll have someone get saddled down with a twinked out combination of buff abilities. If buffs are going to be worth taking up one of your extremely limited skill slots, they're going to have to be considerably powerful, and if those buffs extend to party members...well I think you see where this is going.

Same old drudgery under a different name.

Until the game goes live and I actually get to see player behavior patterns develop differently, I am going to remain extremely skeptical.

[Takelli]

Re: Guild Wars 2

I don't see that honestly.

There is no class with any real heal spells, besides elementalist, but even then, its fairly weak. Self heal, and aoe hot. Other than that, not going to happen.

Just like if one was going to "tank" the mobs, they would die.... Horribly fast.