Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

[Feba]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

FF14 will have towns, will be in HD

Yes, and FF14 is an MMO. The role towns serve in MMOs is vital, not so much in a console game.

San d'Oria says hi.

Yes, it does. San d'Oria actually has a fairly complex layout. It may not be the prettiest thing ever, but someone couldn't just put in some elevation changes, paint it brown, and call it a day.

[Kailea]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

Yes, and FF14 is an MMO. The role towns serve in MMOs is vital, not so much in a console game.


Yes, it does. San d'Oria actually has a fairly complex layout. It may not be the prettiest thing ever, but someone couldn't just put in some elevation changes, paint it brown, and call it a day.

Well the thing is, his argument is that FFXIII does not have towns because "its to hard" to program them in HD

What Kitase really means is there are no towns because they are not important and so we dont waste the time making them. Covering up his/their laziness by saying "its to hard to program them in HD", when we damn know thats not true, because other games that are out already have done it, and FFXIV will do it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

Here's the thing, though.

In FFVII Midgar, Kalm, Junon, Rocket Town and Wutai are all dramatically different in design. They were all able to be so dramatically different in appearance because there were no real 3D assets used to create them. They were pre-rendered and mapped to create the illusion of a 3D place at times.

Windurst, San'doria and Bastock are towns full of recycled assets and some closed-off areas. The towns of FFXIV will have these elements. We might see some more detailed interiors and land/cityscapes this time, but I harbor no illusions that many buildings within the same city will look similar on the outside. And the places that are more detailed will be just small places

[Feba]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

"its to hard"

Don't trust quotes. Quoting translations is bad enough, it's even worse when it comes from Japanese, not just linguistically but culturally. Americans love metaphor, Japanese love euphemism. "It's very hard" can mean a lot of things, it's pretty unlikely that he's willing to oversee development of a game as massive as Final Fantasy 13, but not willing to put towns in it. "Making graphics will take enormous time." suggests the real reason-- money. Time is money. Taking time to make a town doesn't just mean pushing back the game's release, thus tying up more of the company's money, it also means you have to pay salaries of the people building it.

Maybe he's not willing to budget it, in favor of adding other things to the game. And while that choice is fair game for debate, you have to suggest what should be cut instead; he can't do anything more than the money he's given.

[Malacite]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

If money is the issue, he should just come out and say it.

Claiming it's too hard to create is simply bullshit and insults our intelligence. Let's not forget that this is the same jack off who said porting a potentially 50 GB game to an 8 GB media wouldn't result in any compromises...
In short, SE needs a new and better P.R. guy.

[Feba]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

If money is the issue, he should just come out and say it.

Why? Do you go around telling people all of the things you'd have if you could afford them? Also, could you potentially lose your career if you went around talking about finances that your company doesn't consider your business?

Claiming it's too hard to create is simply bullshit and insults our intelligence.

It's called subtlety. I realize that's a rare thing on the internets, but you don't need to spell everything out just because some idiots may not understand what you're talking about.

Let's not forget that this is the same jack off who said porting a potentially 50 GB game to an 8 GB media wouldn't result in any compromises...

And why should it? "Potentially 50GB" is meaningless. Downloadable titles are potentially infinite in size, so long as they think the customer will have the disk space for it. That doesn't mean that releasing a previously download-only title on CD-ROM makes it smaller. If FF13 is under 8GB, then yes, it wouldn't make a difference. Keep in mind also that most of the use of Blu-Ray's space isn't because it's needed, it's because some idiot decided marketing things as "uncompressed" was a good thing, which means we're losing a lot of space that could be easily regained by simply compressing things to fit on the disk, without any impact on the quality of the game. And I don't just mean 'you can't really hear the difference', like with most people and high-bitrate MP3s, I mean 'there is no difference', lossless compression, that sounds exactly the same as uncompressed audio but takes up much less space.

[Malacite]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

I could be wrong but it's probably a lot easier for them to simply put as much content as possible on the actual disc than to host a whole crap load of DLC on a server. That, and apparently from what I've heard M$ charges monstrous royalties on multi-disc games >_>


Kitase has always been full of crap though and no body really likes him lol. I don't know what it is about the 360, but it just has a hard time with things the PS3 does easier, like loading areas. Take for example SO4 (which is finally making it's way over here on PS3)

The 360 version forced you to swap discs every time you go back to an older area once you reach the final town. This issue is gone completely on the PS3 version since the BD is so much larger. I was surprised that even installing the game wouldn't fix this...

I really do think they're just looking for excuses. They can not in all honesty say that an HD FF7 remake on PS3 wouldn't make an absolute killing. The PS3 install base is (finally) large enough to support such an endeavor, and FF7 has a pretty huge cult following (for better or worse @-@)

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a lot of work, obviously it would be horrendous in all likeliness. But in the end I think it'd be worth it. FF7 continues even now to be the top downloaded title off the PSN. If they have to scale back the graphics in town a bit as opposed to battles then that's okay; just don't feed us these nonsense excuses that no one's buying for one second. I think FF14 will be the big test; Once we get to see just how nice the towns will be in that game, then we can really judge whether SE is feeding us bull or not.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

Keep in mind also that most of the use of Blu-Ray's space isn't because it's needed, it's because some idiot decided marketing things as "uncompressed" was a good thing, which means we're losing a lot of space that could be easily regained by simply compressing things to fit on the disk, without any impact on the quality of the game.

Its this what's really happening, though?

Nevermind, I just looked, that is how they're marketing it. Anyone that's worked in audio/video editing or programming should know this is a bunch of shit, though. Are developers somehow contractually obligated not to do the compression for the sake of these visuals and audio now?

If so, this is all just tonic salesman kinds of nonsense gamers are letting them get away with. All so they can push their download content agendas, too.

[Malacite]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

If so, this is all just tonic salesman kinds of nonsense gamers are letting them get away with. All so they can push their download content agendas, too.

For once I totally agree and it's a complete piss off. Unless it's going to make a dramatic difference (and it typically doesn't) just use the most efficient compression and put more content on the fucking disc. Tired of getting billed for shit that really should have been included in the finished product to begin with.

[Feba]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

I could be wrong but it's probably a lot easier for them to simply put as much content as possible on the actual disc than to host a whole crap load of DLC on a server.

Well, yes, but that's not what I'm saying. Putting content on a disk instead of having it be freely downloadable is preferable-- that is because bandwidth costs money. Keep in mind that you just used 'easier' to talk about cheapness, so you really shouldn't consider it so unthinkable that Kitase might say "harder" to define expensiveness.

I'm saying that you can't say "this media holds up to 50GB, therefore you are losing 42GB of game content by putting it on 360". GTA4 should be proof enough that DVD still provides a ton of space, even with higher resolution textures and crisp sound.

Once we get to see just how nice the towns will be in that game, then we can really judge whether SE is feeding us bull or not.

Again, it's all about cost. In FFXIV, those towns will be used by players for quite possibly the next decade, if not longer. That's a pretty good ROI. Not so much in a console, offline, FF, where towns require much more detail without significantly adding to gameplay.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

What a crock of shit. Seriously. He must think us geeks are stupid fucks. I want to slam my controller in his face.

As far as money being an issue, thats a sad state of affairs if SE has that bad of financial problems. Maybe you should have stopped releasing shit and worked harder on a smaller amount of titles........LIKE A REMASTER OF FFVII ASSHOLES. ><

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

As far as money being an issue, thats a sad state of affairs if SE has that bad of financial problems. Maybe you should have stopped releasing shit and worked harder on a smaller amount of titles........LIKE A REMASTER OF FFVII ASSHOLES. ><

TGM, could you kindly show me the games we've gotten from the current generation that are vastly larger than what we saw on PC, PS2 and Xbox last generation? Or even the generation prior to that?

We're talking about the loss of scope this generation in the face of having tons more storage. If SE can't give us towns and Bioware has to give us planets to scan rather than visit and explore for materials in Mass Effect 2 (naturally marketed as "streamlining the process" rather than "dumbing it down"), then how can we say they're being lazy.

Developers are always going to spin their reasons for not doing something, but as this generation moves forward, we're starting to get a real picture of what's happening.

Nintendo didn't just start setting up two new RPG IPs to go with Dragon Quest X for no reason. I mean, they totally called this generation hitting a wall and no one listened to them. MS and Sony just kept on with their little rat race. not caring who gets bankrupted along the way. Now Nintendo stands to inherit the JRPG market in full as a result.

There's also a massive shift in the development community towards making "smaller" games - for handhelds, iPhone/Touch and PC. This is because even the Wii is a tough nut to crack since its market is so new. Its also because small-time games are doing really well now.

[Malacite]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

What a crock of shit. Seriously. He must think us geeks are stupid fucks. I want to slam my controller in his face.

As far as money being an issue, thats a sad state of affairs if SE has that bad of financial problems. Maybe you should have stopped releasing shit and worked harder on a smaller amount of titles........LIKE A REMASTER OF FFVII ASSHOLES. ><

[Rostum]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

TGM, could you kindly show me the games we've gotten from the current generation that are vastly larger than what we saw on PC, PS2 and Xbox last generation? Or even the generation prior to that?

We're talking about the loss of scope this generation in the face of having tons more storage. If SE can't give us towns and Bioware has to give us planets to scan rather than visit and explore for materials in Mass Effect 2 (naturally marketed as "streamlining the process" rather than "dumbing it down"), then how can we say they're being lazy.

Developers are always going to spin their reasons for not doing something, but as this generation moves forward, we're starting to get a real picture of what's happening.

Nintendo didn't just start setting up two new RPG IPs to go with Dragon Quest X for no reason. I mean, they totally called this generation hitting a wall and no one listened to them. MS and Sony just kept on with their little rat race. not caring who gets bankrupted along the way. Now Nintendo stands to inherit the JRPG market in full as a result.

There's also a massive shift in the development community towards making "smaller" games - for handhelds, iPhone/Touch and PC. This is because even the Wii is a tough nut to crack since its market is so new. Its also because small-time games are doing really well now.

I think I can agree with this.

I don't know if people realise this, but doing something as large scale as Kitase is talking about requires a lot of man power to create all the assets and all the code, along with the management of all the teams, management over budget and time constraints. PR, marketing, pre-production teams, etc. etc. You can have all the talented and skillful people in the world and it will still take a lot. Most companies, even big companies like Activision, Bioware or Square Enix just can't take that amount of risk on the current generation consoles. There is a lot more to it than just magically waving a wand and everything will turn out alright, there are a lot of risks involved - and they are HUGE risks for the entire company.

This is why you start to see these companies moving in and crushing the indie development on things such as iPhone and Xbox Live; because making a lot of small games is so much more profitable and far less risky. The reason you don't see too much indie development on PSN or Wii is simply because they charge a fortune for the development kits (as far as an indie developer would go), and you could still be red lighted.

So when TGM says "He must think us geeks are stupid fucks.", well a lot of people in this thread just prove it. The expectation of quality and scope for an FFVII remake is extremely high, and with that comes extremely high risks and factors that most gamers have no clue about (specifically in the core development side of things). Just to throw some figures in here, you are looking at roughly 50M for a large scale PC, Xbox 360 or PS3 project along with many years worth of development.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

TGM, could you kindly show me the games we've gotten from the current generation that are vastly larger than what we saw on PC, PS2 and Xbox last generation? Or even the generation prior to that?

We're talking about the loss of scope this generation in the face of having tons more storage. If SE can't give us towns and Bioware has to give us planets to scan rather than visit and explore for materials in Mass Effect 2 (naturally marketed as "streamlining the process" rather than "dumbing it down"), then how can we say they're being lazy.

Developers are always going to spin their reasons for not doing something, but as this generation moves forward, we're starting to get a real picture of what's happening.

Nintendo didn't just start setting up two new RPG IPs to go with Dragon Quest X for no reason. I mean, they totally called this generation hitting a wall and no one listened to them. MS and Sony just kept on with their little rat race. not caring who gets bankrupted along the way. Now Nintendo stands to inherit the JRPG market in full as a result.

There's also a massive shift in the development community towards making "smaller" games - for handhelds, iPhone/Touch and PC. This is because even the Wii is a tough nut to crack since its market is so new. Its also because small-time games are doing really well now.

Your post confuses me. I am stating that they need to manage their money better and look at projects that will be more of a sure bet than a shot in the dark. FFVII is a 99.9% guaranteed hit. People are rabid for it.....lots and lots of people in many countries. It will also hook a new generation of fans along the way. They know that the game still stands the test of time story wise. But yet they release games that were a shot in the dark like Dragon Quest Swords, My Life as a King, Infinite Undiscovery, Last Remnant, etc when that money could have been applied to a remaster of FFVII with guaranteed returns.

---------- Post added at 01:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 AM ----------

So when TGM says "He must think us geeks are stupid fucks.", well a lot of people in this thread just prove it. The expectation of quality and scope for an FFVII remake is extremely high, and with that comes extremely high risks and factors that most gamers have no clue about (specifically in the core development side of things). Just to throw some figures in here, you are looking at roughly 50M for a large scale PC, Xbox 360 or PS3 project along with many years worth of development.

Sorry I'm not a stupid fuck and I am extremely offended by you inferring that. I have been gaming for over 35 years and I've been involved in a group of gamers that have been together for 30 years this year. One third of the members in that group are now employed by various gaming companies throughout the world. We get together once or twice a month on Mirc and talk games/game development. Most of the group also agrees that SE could remaster FFVII and make a mint in the process. Will it take time and money? Of course, every game does. 50M for a game from conception to finish could have been easily accomplished if they'd nixed a couple of the half assed games they've released recently. And just think, they already have a template for the game since they already made it once so that will help!