Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

[Raydeus]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Well... they can't really take anything from the people. But all they need to do is convince them the system is how things are and that are immutable so they don't think about just ditching the current system that give the Elites power.

People will get addicted to it and defend the system even if it's slowly enslaving them. In the end it's all a big scam people need to sheepishly buy or it wont work. Because those Elites? The have nothing of their own, they produce nothing and they can't really monopolize land or resources on their own. Like all parasites they need the people to provide for them as long as they can keep them fooled with the "system".

[Raydeus]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

The UK is doing everything that the Republicans want to do and it is not working. And I don't just mean it's doing badly, I mean we are pretty likely to have a repeat of last year's riots if someone in government doesn't stop dropping the fucking ball.

It is working, for the people at the top of the Corporations that are profiting from it. It may look like an economic disaster to everyone else, but these guys can profit even more from a falling economy than from a healthy one because of how they rigged the game deceptively named Capitalism in their favor. And socializing their loses while capitalizing their gains is just one aspect of it.

Once the income unbalance is like it is right now in the US they are able to grab even more land and power cheaply than they ever could if the wealth was distributed amongst the population. That is why they undermine the people at any chance they have. Their rights, their wealth, their land, their Government. The more things they can take from the general population the more they can profit from it.

This is how and why the US and the UK (and obviously Israel) have sponsored dictatorships all over the place for decades. The weaker the population is the easier it is to take wealth from them, and all they have to do is throw some of it at the corrupt collaborators in power who have no problem selling their country to the "1st world" for profit.


Thing is now with the Petrodollar on the decline they are turning to the 1st world to cannibalize it too.

[Firewind]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

So with all that in mind, please explain to me why corporate and income taxes are a good thing.

Second Law of Thermodynamics. It applies to economics as well.

Money that is hoarded offshore is for all intents and purposes money removed from the economy. Tax avoidance is one of the contributing factors of the huge national budget deficits you are seeing in many countries today, particularly in Europe. If nothing it being put into the economy then how can it grow? Now tell me what happens to the growth of ANY system where what is being put in is taken out.

Which is why the Conservative party in the UK of course have suddenly decided to fudge the figures and quietly sweep under the rug that fact that many tax avoidance loopholes are still open, and refusing to go through with their plans to tax large properties, second properties and estates; all while small business owners, the middle class, and poor pay for the elite who contribute nothing to society.

This is also the same party that is slashing the welfare safety net that more and more people are being forced to rely on due to the clusterfuck that is the current UK Economy and using it to justify further cuts to public spending, which further destroyed economic growth as more people lose jobs, which leads to more people claiming welfare, and the government again pointing fingers at "lazy" people who lose their jobs due to budget cuts and cuts to public spending. Do you want to know how many people are applying for each open job position in the UK? 70.

Yes even a job cleaning toilets in a truck stop will have an average of 70 people applying for that one job. Also add in how much Mr Cameron and co love to fudge figures by simply moving people around. People on volunteer work programmes but still claiming welfare? Well technically they are employed so we get to fudge the unemployment figures! Disabled unable to work claiming welfare? Just rename the benefit that they claim! Crime rate soaring to uncontrollable levels? merge Police forces and use the crime statistics for both areas to get a lower crime rate figure! NHS failing? Chop it up into competing departments only interested in meeting budget and waiting list targets! Ultra-Rich and Corporations avoiding hundreds of billions in unpaid taxes? Close a couple of loopholes and out a few fall guys and claim that there's no more tax avoidance going on!

The UK is doing everything that the Republicans want to do and it is not working. And I don't just mean it's doing badly, I mean we are pretty likely to have a repeat of last year's riots if someone in government doesn't stop dropping the fucking ball.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Taiwanese median outlet, New Media, put out an interesting and funny video. It was better than the effort by Simpson/Family Guy animators to make Obama's weak debate points look a strong speech.

vs.

The first video is funnier because they don't have a stake in it. The second one was made by cheerleaders and since most of Obama's speech was canned and predictable anyway, easy to produce a fancier video for. Also worth noting the juxtaposed conservative commentators that tend to be highly against the Republican establishment with the Republican establishment.

Also more Bush blame, which is getting tiresome. When do Obama and his cronies stop blaming Bush and start accepting responsibility? There's literally no difference between what Bush did between 2006 to 2008 and what Obama has done these last for years. 2006-2010 was when we had a Democrat supermajority, BTW, which is why Bush's late years strongly resemble Obama's first term. They shouldnt' really be blaming bush, they gave him a third term in Obama.

[Taskmage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Worth noting that this 27% tax would also apply to corporate acquisitions. They're not getting a free pass by this, just being held to the same standard as everyone else.

Also, "The proposal also calls for a monthly payment to all family households of lawful U.S. residents as an advance rebate, or "prebate", of tax on purchases up to the poverty level."*

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Also, replace the income and corporate taxes with a flat consumption tax? Not only will doing that fail to balance the budget, it'll be horribly regressive.

No, it would be progress. I get to keep what I make, excessive junk regulations and laws that exist to add tax revenue would be exposed and have no legs to stand on. Take DOMA, for example. Its designed to give exclusive tax benefits to married heterosexual couples. If everyone's paying the same taxes, however, what is the point of DOMA aside from religion? And wouldn't a immigrant who was able to take more money home deeply consider the path to citizenship? Wouldn't that create a strain on the immigration system that would force legitimate reforms rather than the circle jerks and profiteering that the government enjoys now on visa fees? The corruption of the system would be exposed.

And if we're all paying 27% on goods and services that means the same tax on alcohol as cigarettes when you think about it. They're now both more cost prohibitive and equally so. Same thing if drugs were legalized, same thing with eating out. You'd be forced to consider your own choices more deeply.

And so would the government. They'd have to reduce their size and live within their means, which means national defense would be prioritized over wars for resources.

So with all that in mind, please explain to me why corporate and income taxes are a good thing.

[Malacite]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Exactly, and it's just 1 of many issues that could be changed.

Again, just look at the mess citizens united became under the Roberts Court - now imagine how much more extreme it could get with a conservative majority given their track record.


Also, replace the income and corporate taxes with a flat consumption tax? Not only will doing that fail to balance the budget, it'll be horribly regressive.

[Icemage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Not that it affects male Canadians, but I seem to recall three recent Republican presidents that were in a position to do it and didn't. Abortion is a Chicken Little issue. It's a divisive issue used to scare uninformed voters and that's all it ever amounts to. Kinds like immigration and gay marriage, the latter of which has already been shifted to the backburner by the Supreme Court to spring 2013. Doesn't matter who the president is, immigration has already fallen to the wayside. Color me surprised.

Abortion won't budge. Republicans and Democrats need it along with those other two circle jerks for each election.

Not sure this is true, to be quite honest. The only reason Roe v. Wade in specific (with respect to abortion) has stayed unmolested is because multiple Supreme Court appointees under Republican presidents ended up being not nearly as conservative as expected (see: David Souter, Anthony Kennedy). That ruling has dodged a LOT of Supreme Court nomination bullets over the past few decades.

More importantly, several of the current sitting judges on the U.S. Supreme Court are very old and close to retirement. Four were born before 1940: Antonin Scalia (conservative), Ruth Bader Ginsberg (liberal), Stephen Breyer (liberal), and Anthony Kennedy (swing).

Given the questionable grounds on which Roe v. Wade was constructed in the first place, it's not much of a stretch to consider it to be amongst the first casualties if the balance of power in the the SCOTUS shifts again.


Icemage

[Taskmage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

The NPR Third-Party Candidate Debate : NPR

Gary Johnson vs Jill Stein

[Malacite]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Bullshit it won't.

There have been plenty of challenges to it, and if the Romney gets elected and nominates a 5th conservative judge, you will definitely see more - and then when one of those cases gets deferred to the SC, that's it - bye bye abortions. The Roberts court has already shown clear disdain for the public, I don't see how it'd be any different here.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Right, because Romney wouldn't totally fuck over the middle class - especially if he gets to nominate any justices.

If one of the liberals retires, and he's president, you can bet your ass Roe vs Wade will be overturned.

Not that it affects male Canadians, but I seem to recall three recent Republican presidents that were in a position to do it and didn't. Abortion is a Chicken Little issue. It's a divisive issue used to scare uninformed voters and that's all it ever amounts to. Kinds like immigration and gay marriage, the latter of which has already been shifted to the backburner by the Supreme Court to spring 2013. Doesn't matter who the president is, immigration has already fallen to the wayside. Color me surprised.

Abortion won't budge. Republicans and Democrats need it along with those other two circle jerks for each election.

[Malacite]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Right, because Romney wouldn't totally fuck over the middle class - especially if he gets to nominate any justices.

If one of the liberals retires, and he's president, you can bet your ass Roe vs Wade will be overturned.

[Mezlo]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

I love Howard Stern!!! Unfortnately Obama will win again... Too many fools out there...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

I really don't go out of my way for Howard Stern, but he did this bit two weeks ago and its pretty much man-on-the-street interviews - except his questions are lies. When Republicans or Democrats do these kinds of questions, they just selectively edit people on the other side to make them look stupid or inept. Howard Stern did this to prove Jesse Ventura's point that an uniformed voter will just mindlessly vote their party. It could have just as easily been done to republican voters and made the same point.

Some people don't even know Joe Biden is a VP. They thought Paul Ryan already had that job under Obama.

Nice to know we have so many uninformed voters out there more than happy to vote.

[Taskmage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Admittedly I haven't done a lot of research on the guy, but he seems to be on board with the whole removing regulations on businesses thing as well as reducing medicare. The latter makes me uneasy but I don't really have a firm enough grasp of the subject matter to be unswayable on it. The former though...oy vey. Removing regulations en masse is just courting the return of robber barons. Basically people are scum and without rules and repercussions in place they will lie, cheat and steal at every turn to make a buck at someone else's expense. Human nature is not benevolent and the idea that we should simply trust people to Not be Dicks is absurd. A lot of the regulations in place today are there for very good reasons and I don't buy into the fairytale that the economy will just magic itself better if the regulations vanished overnight.

Feel free to correct me though as I'm certain I'm mistaken about the Libertarian platform in general on a number of points.

No, you've pretty much got it right. Health care is such a ridiculously complicated issue that idk if I fully understand the plans people lay out for it and if they'd work. Tbh, I'm not sure I believe the people making the plans have all that good a grasp on it, either. Johnson at least seems to have a plan, unlike other politicians who just throw out budget cuts as a campaign platitude with no idea how to back it up. He wants to cut 47% right from the get-go, and the remaining 53% he wants to send down to the states so that they can manage their health care situations in keeping with the needs and values of their constituents. This would let progressive northeastern states set up their own Obamacares if they wanted, while unfortunately still allowing Texas to be a dick. Arguably this is how it would work anyway, but releasing Federal control allows it to happen faster.

Moderate Libertarians do still want most corporate regulations removed, but the thoughtful ones want to essentially replace them with things like strengthened property rights, which they see as a more elegant solution that adapts better to change, as opposed to regulations which have to be drafted for situations as they arise. For instance, if you have a waterway like a creek on your property that is downstream from a farm that's using industrial fertilizer (this is the most commonly used example) it is literally not possible under current rules and regulations to hold them responsible for that. You're not allowed to bring a suit. Under the Libertarian ideal, that situation wouldn't be moderated by standards and regulators which are inefficient and corruptible, but if your resource is damaged, you have standing to bring suit and demand compensation, which would discourage businesses from practices that are irresponsible to their communities and the environment.