E3 2009: FINAL FANTASY XIV Online Coming in 2010

[neighbortaru]

re: E3 2009: FINAL FANTASY XIV Online Coming in 2010

The world seems to be called Eorzea so I doubt there'll be character transfers between the 2 games (which I'm glad for). This is really exciting and I can only hope they've learn to adapt the more modern mmo gameplay conventions (seriously too many time-sinks/blocks in FFXI) for XIV.

btw, anyone notice the Galkas here don't have tails? :lol:

[Yellow Mage]

re: E3 2009: FINAL FANTASY XIV Online Coming in 2010

Anyone else notice that the first half of the trailer is a reference to the art from the installer for FFXI?

O_O

Lago's title: Extremely Discerning Individual

---------- Post added at 08:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:05 PM ----------

No jump button.

Except for Dragoons, obviously.

[Caspian]

re: E3 2009: FINAL FANTASY XIV Online Coming in 2010

I'm pretty sure I'll atleast try this out for awhile. Hopefully jump in with some of ya'll when it starts. One of my largest concerns is the economy. The fact that money was always of great concern and there wasn't any way outside of spending many hours farming or whatever to get enough money just to maintain yourself. I'm not asking for easy mode, but (and I'm gonna compare it to WoW now, because thats what I've been playing for awhile) something a little more similar to WoW, where the day to day stuff doesn't require playing every night for several hours, but for acceling at endgame then greater hours of play really becomes helpful.

And speaking of jumping (not the dragoon ability), I would love not to have it, I spend way too much time doing nothing at all just jumping back and forth wasting time I could be sleeping.

[Aksannyi]

re: E3 2009: FINAL FANTASY XIV Online Coming in 2010

What's wrong with jumping? Jumping is fun, and it beats having to get stuck behind something that is two inches high but I can't step over.

[Karinya]

re: E3 2009: FINAL FANTASY XIV Online Coming in 2010

The trailer says it isn't Vana'diel, and while the races may be the same, the monsters are completely different. (We might eventually see some of the FF series iconic monsters like cactuars, malboros, or bombs, but they're not in this trailer.)

As for gameplay, obviously, it's hard to say; we don't even know if any of the trailer is gameplay footage or if it's all CS's, or how much gameplay will change in the next year and a half before release of the base game (to say nothing of expansions). It might not even *have* a job system, let alone one that resembles FFXI's.

Hopefully SE will learn at least a few lessons from FFXI so that a few major balance and gameplay problems they're unwilling to fix (either because they would be seen as large nerfs, or are too integral to the structure of the game) can be designed differently from the start. In no particular order:

* Tanking without taking damage is overpowered. Giving an exceptionally powerful damage mitigation ability to *everyone* through subjobs is also overpowered. If there's going to be a blink in FFXIV, it needs to be gimp by FFXI standards unless you specialize in it (i.e. are the equivalent of a main NIN) - or just outright too long a recast to rely on for anything other than safer pulling. Really, raising the level of Ni could accomplish this in FFXI - but the devs are afraid/reluctant/??? to do it as a nerf. A new game could be done right from the beginning. (Insert standard SMN/WHM rant here, too. Whatever the intended role of a particular job, it should be resistant to derailing by subjobs or the equivalent.)

* Conversely, some job combos are overgimped by skill restrictions on spells that need to affect an enemy. I'm not sure how to deal with this exactly, but in games like FF 6, 7, 8, 10, and 12 anyone can learn a few spells and have them work at least well enough to damage enemies weak to that element. Skill level and the way it interacts with subjobs has too strong an effect on some spells and too weak an effect (basically none) on others. (Yes, it's hard to walk the line between Hybrids Suck and Hybrids Rule. But NIN/WAR's combination of damage avoidance and damage dealing is clearly way over the line - especially when combined with actual hate holding.)

* Speaking of tanking - it's only possible because monsters are dumb and easily manipulated. What if they weren't? High offense, low defense jobs (or the equivalent) would function very differently if monsters attacked whoever it benefited the *monster* to attack, and not whoever the players want the monster to attack. On the other hand, that's also traditionally a big area of teamwork in MMOs - if you take it away, there's little point to having offense specialists in the first place, because they'll just get taken out first to shut down their firepower (or healers will, to shut down their healing, etc.) and the tank would be nothing more than the last person to die. Maybe there's some middle ground where tanking involves actually stopping (some) enemies from reaching your more fragile party members (ranged attackers could still be dangerous, though).

* The ability to choose what monsters you fight is very game altering compared to the usual FFs (and other RPGs) with random/plot dictated encounters. Maybe FFXIV should have more unexpected/unwanted adds and mixed groups of enemies which players should be expected to deal with (and therefore need to have a more well-rounded character/party to do so). Mixed groups don't always make a lot of in-world sense, but they're more balanced and more varied gameplay than one colibri after another. (Which was no different in the pre-ToAU era when it was one crab after another, or one beetle after another, or one fly after another. At least beastmen come in a variety of jobs around the same level and area, so players usually fight different kinds in succession.)

* Team tactics were a great thing in FFXI, probably one of the best things about it. Initial voke + SATA, SC+MB, characters specializing in support roles like BRD. On the other hand, coordinating tactics with strangers is a pain in the ass compared to "everyone spam your strongest damage ability" and very few players actually *want* to specialize in support roles; the same thing that makes the game so great when everything comes together also demands more effort from players, which may be bad for market share. FFXI today has a lot less teamwork than in the RoZ/CoP days, and IMO, is worse for it. But there's no doubt that subscriber numbers are up and people spend a lot of time in ToAU areas. (Which reminds me: giving away free crack, er, ultrafast exp, in expansion areas is a cheap trick to boost expansion sales, sometimes greatly at the expense of long-term game balance. Hopefully FFXIV will avoid that, too. I don't know how the overall revenue from disc/expansion sales compares to the overall revenue from subscription fees, but based on the existence of the Vana'diel Collections, I can guess.)

* Multihit weapons need to be handled much more carefully. Ridill, Joyeuse and Kclub would never have been released by the FFXI dev team of today and hopefully FFXIV will be free of them from the start. Lower damage per hit might have balanced them, if not for Souleater and TP mechanics. (Lower damage per hit *and* less TP per hit and Souleater added damage per hit *would* balance them - but in FFXI it would be a nerf, in FFXIV it could be just the way the game is.)

* Time nuking/sleep nuking and related strategies should be, at least, carefully examined. Some fights in FFXI can be ended before the monster even tries to fight back or realizes it is under attack. A few long casting, but very powerful spells gives nuking a very different gameplay than melee or ranged attacking - but it's also one with serious balance implications that are not always well addressed in FFXI. Maybe FFXIV monsters should be smart enough to aggro at the *start* of the spell (although that still doesn't solve sleep/bind breaking only when damage is dealt).

* If we're going to get really ambitious, why not do something about the lag/kiting/melee problem? Do *what*, I am not really sure. But it's a big problem - as long as kiting a non-CC'd monster is effective at reducing its damage output, which in FFXI, it sometimes is. Maybe it shouldn't be.

* Absolutely, positively no timer pops. FFXI has come up with a variety of different ways to grant rare opportunities to fight certain fights - FFXIV should take advantage of them, and not use the lazy way out of the monster you need to fight just not being there, or someone else having it first. If there is a timer, it should be personal to the player/group (like Dynamis) - e.g. anyone can fight Behemoth once a week, but no more often, and one player's Behemoth fight doesn't affect another's. (Although it would also be really cool to have a zone where lots of behemoths just wander around and you can fight them as regular mobs, since they're also one of the FF series icons. Maybe the timer thing should only apply to FFXIV's equivalent of *King* Behemoth...)

* In general, players shouldn't work at cross-purposes on things like NM claiming and Dynamis/Limbus schedule collisions. (If you have PvP, obviously players will have opposed goals in that. But that's the whole point of that area of gameplay - usually a literal area, so it doesn't have to disturb players who aren't interested in it.) Player-to-player interference could be avoided with better game design (trigger pops or special battlefields, instancing a la Assault). Again, solutions FFXI has already come up with should be adopted so FFXIV avoids those problems from the start.

* In general, it would be nice to avoid falling into the trap of hard-to-get gear becoming both performance defining, and the main goal for level capped players. But no other MMO has pulled that off AFAIK - they would have to figure out how to do something interesting with your character that wasn't either level, a merit equivalent, or gear (because both of the former two are capped).

* Most importantly: The structure of the game determines the structure of the playerbase, by determining which players will be attracted and retained, and how their behavior is influenced by the game. We've seen some of this just within FFXI with ToAU and the subsequent decline of SC+MB dynamics (and in some cases, even tanking), but it's *really* dramatic when you compare FFXI with a highly popular MMO that focuses on solo and PvP content - World of Warcraft. The ways players interact with each other, both in and out of the game (on forums etc.) are light years apart. There are, judging from sales figures, a lot of people who want to play a WoW-like game. A lot of them (not necessarily all) are kind of jerks, compared to FFXI players (or at least, playing or talking about WoW brings out their jerky side). But there are a lot of them, and businesses like to make money, and a jerk's money spends as well as a considerate, mature player's.

Which is all to say, I wouldn't be surprised if FFXIV's structure and player interaction moved substantially in the WoW direction in a bid for market share - but I probably wouldn't want to play the result as much, no matter how pretty the graphics are. (Except, maybe, if they also fix some of the other gameplay issues listed above.)

[Malacite]

re: E3 2009: FINAL FANTASY XIV Online Coming in 2010

I don't mind them putting the Blink Spell in there again, however it should function the way it originally did in FF 1 and 2; greatly enhance evasion.


Good eye btw about the Galka O.O

[Taskmage]

re: E3 2009: FINAL FANTASY XIV Online Coming in 2010

I say this not because I want WoW to fail, but because FFXI is already short on players by comparison and a split player base would really suck.

Compared to WoW, New Jersey is short on people.

The thought of SE doing some kind of end of the world scenario to push all the players out of FFXI and into FFXIV crossed my mind as well, but they did say support for FFXI would continue as long as it remained profitable. I wouldn't put it past them to somehow incentivise moving from FFXI to FFXIV, though I'm not sure how. I'm sure they wouldn't be handing out direct transfers from one system into another nor do I think they should, but maybe something like an experience bonus for a certain period based on the level of your FFXI character to soften the blow of starting over?

[Malacite]

re: E3 2009: FINAL FANTASY XIV Online Coming in 2010

I'm definitely sold on Rapture now, at least initially.

I'll give it a shot and if I like it enough, I'll probably cancel my content ID for FFXI for a while until I feel like going back. I'm not giving up on FFXI right away, but the fact that SE is using the same art style and even the same races is too great for me to ignore.

@.@ maybe male Mithra won't be so god damned rare this time? If I can run around as a bishie lion man I'm totally freaking sold. I mean I love how tall and buff my Elf is, but sexy lion man = chick magnet lol =3

And I just plain love cats.


EDIT: I figured it out!!!!!

OMG it's so freaking obvious... the reason they're using the same races is to attract players to both games.

Think about it. The FFXI veterans will appreciate the familiarity while also experiencing a brand new world. Meanwhile the new people who didn't play FFXI will look at XI and think to themselves "hey, that game has the same races too!" and so they'll generate interest in both MMOs that way.

At least that's my theory.

[Karinya]

re: E3 2009: FINAL FANTASY XIV Online Coming in 2010

What's wrong with jumping? Jumping is fun, and it beats having to get stuck behind something that is two inches high but I can't step over.

Jumping is fun, until some dev decides that since there's jumping, there should be some dungeons that are like 3d platformer games!

Except with lag. And basically none of the features of actual 3d platformers except jumping (e.g. no climbing or catching hold of ledges you almost hit). And players who don't LIKE platformer games and didn't expect to be buying or playing one. And did I mention lag?

So, basically, jumping can be fun but it needs to be handled carefully. Don't make anything other than convenience depend on it. (Ditto swimming or other forms of 3d movement - fun, but awkward with most control sets, especially ones primarily designed for 2d.) In an MMO, getting there is *not* half the fun, but can occasionally be 90% of the frustration.

I do agree that there should be clearer demarcation of what is and is not passable, though - that should have made it into my long post. (WoW is even worse, with some slopes too steep to walk/jump up and other *identical looking* slopes you need to walk/jump up to reach important places.) Freer movement would be nice in some ways, but otherwise give us clearly visible and obvious forcefields, lava, cliffs, or something else that players won't try to enter - and then don't put even one easter egg in it, *ever*, or players will spend the next 5 years trying to find the second place where you can walk through a wall or other unwalkable terrain.

[Taskmage]

re: E3 2009: FINAL FANTASY XIV Online Coming in 2010

If Karinya said something I don't agree with I didn't notice. Aside from the gameplay issues there are obviously some deficiencies of the interface and the backend that need to be dealt with.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

re: E3 2009: FINAL FANTASY XIV Online Coming in 2010

I want to see more emphasis placed on and encouraging exploration - this is one of the biggest and most unspoken problems that FFXI has had.

We are called "adventurers" and yet I'd say 90% do the exact opposite of that title, never venturing beyond the places they are familiar with. There are some really amazing places in FFXI that people are just frighted of or unwilling to go to, some of the best experiences I had were on BST, which not only let me go off the beaten path, but encouraged it.

[Aksannyi]

re: E3 2009: FINAL FANTASY XIV Online Coming in 2010

Jumping is fun, until some dev decides that since there's jumping, there should be some dungeons that are like 3d platformer games!

Except with lag. And basically none of the features of actual 3d platformers except jumping (e.g. no climbing or catching hold of ledges you almost hit). And players who don't LIKE platformer games and didn't expect to be buying or playing one. And did I mention lag?

So, basically, jumping can be fun but it needs to be handled carefully. Don't make anything other than convenience depend on it. (Ditto swimming or other forms of 3d movement - fun, but awkward with most control sets, especially ones primarily designed for 2d.) In an MMO, getting there is *not* half the fun, but can occasionally be 90% of the frustration.

I do agree that there should be clearer demarcation of what is and is not passable, though - that should have made it into my long post. (WoW is even worse, with some slopes too steep to walk/jump up and other *identical looking* slopes you need to walk/jump up to reach important places.) Freer movement would be nice in some ways, but otherwise give us clearly visible and obvious forcefields, lava, cliffs, or something else that players won't try to enter - and then don't put even one easter egg in it, *ever*, or players will spend the next 5 years trying to find the second place where you can walk through a wall or other unwalkable terrain.

Agreed, also, one thing I LOATHE about WoW is the ease of falling off of shit to my death. That's not even fair ... especially since I have to use the arrow keys to move, which is a lot more difficult than just using an analog stick on a controller.

[Telera]

re: E3 2009: FINAL FANTASY XIV Online Coming in 2010

There are a few things that would get me to jump to watching XIV's every update and twitch, and I may as well go into them as not:

As Karinya said: making it so a job's main talent can't be pasted onto another's with nigh-equal efficiency. Ninja, White Mage, etc. Hybrids are nice to a point, until they start forcing other jobs into holes. Utsusemi is the worst offender in this category, but anything /whm is just about as bad. As stated, there is a line between making hybrids too gimp and making them too overpowered, but they need to find it.

The timed pops. Do away with them. Rare/EX gear should be 100% drop. It is not possible for it to flood the market, and no one piece of gear has ever broken anything in XI, so I honestly do not see the mentality behind Rare/EX gear having such low drop rates, other than the blatantly obvious point of time-sink. Sure, you should have to work (read: fight a difficult battle) for the gear, but fight the fight and then still not get it perhaps? And have to continue camping against 400 other joes needing the same gear? Annoying. Nothing enjoyable or challenging in merely waiting.

Which brings me to timesinks on the whole. I'm aware that they're a necessary evil in any MMO to a point. But really, SE, there's so much to do in XI that even if you cut the poptimer/drop rate/farming for gil for days on end nonsense, it would still take years for any one player to experience everything. Stop selling yourself short and padding the game with unnecessary timesinks. You really are great at adding enjoyable content. We don't need padding to keep us in. And even games with less content can keep players without using loads of timesinks if the atmosphere and gameplay are fun.

More solo/small group content. FoV, Campaign, even Besieged have taken huge steps in this direction. I'm aware some people think that 'earning' your right to solo is the right and proper way to run a game, but I'm going to have to disagree. I should not have to earn the right to gain exp in a way that fits my time and personality. There should be paths for all types of players and playstyles. You've got your social types who love to have a full group at their back wherever they go. You have your small group types who prefer to duo or trio with a few good buddies. And you've got your outright soloers who do it for the challenge, the relaxation, or because it's all their free time allows. All of these should be equally catered to, and be able to gain exp at a reasonable rate that is more or less comparable. Those worried about the skill of the soloer really needn't bother, as most of them wouldn't touch big-group content with a fifty foot pole. I do not see this as detrimental to the 'social' aspect of the game, and don't understand the argument that it is. Just because someone levels alone doesn't mean he never helps his LS or friends, or never participates in the economy. You don't have to have arbitrary forced grouping to have 'society'. How many parties have we all been in that were completely silent aside from pertinent battle information? Yeah, that doesn't count as 'socializing', sorry. A bot would give you as much company. Grouping doesn't create socialization by default. Social types will be social whether you force them into groups or not, and those who aren't won't be even if you make them group. They'll be the type that show up, do their job, and say little to nothing outside of what's necessary. (Which is what I did do back when I played, nine times of ten.)

Money. I'm not asking for super awesome easy money here. I'm not even rich in LotRO. But it would be nice if NPCs gave you a feasible source of income from selling them garbage that does not move on the AH. 4-5 gil for stuff? Pitiful. At least make it a decent secondary source of income. AH does not have to be the be all and end all of gaining money for the things you need. And if money isn't *too* rare, it actually works in the inverse favor of the RMT. If it isn't so time-consuming to get, the temptation and the 'demand' for the gil drops. They'll always be around, even LotRO has RMT, but they are surprisingly sparse, simply because money isn't such a timesink in and of itself. People laugh at the ads what little we do see them (I haven't seen one in over a year), and no one can conceive of a reason for anyone to even use the service. I burn 500s on repairs? Well, so I spend 30 mins/hour in Annuminas, sell the vendor trash and I have it back, along with maybe some pages for my Kinmate's alts. Win/win for everyone. I don't have to go farm one stack of something for 2+ hours and wait for it to sell, while likely being undercut by some Joe.

Oh, and more slots on the AH, plzkthx.

[Taermus]

re: E3 2009: FINAL FANTASY XIV Online Coming in 2010

There had better be goblins. Playable farking goblins.

[Taskmage]

re: E3 2009: FINAL FANTASY XIV Online Coming in 2010

There had better be goblins. Playable farking goblins.