Elvaan Thiefs ain't so bad?

[Rogan]

Originally posted by guyincorporated
Nah, in my opinion dragoon LIEK SUCKZORZ from the beginning. There just isn't enough to do in combat. After playing as a thief and constantly being active, it was so jarring trying to switch to a class that just sits there and hits things and maybe tosses in a missed jump every 90 seconds or so. Suddenly, this game which had always been riveting couldn't hold my attention. I found myself easily distracted while playing as dragoon, my performance suffered and it just wasn't rewarding.

I do miss my wyvern, though. He was cute.

and that's just you, and how you played drg maybe you werent good at it which is the likely case, and thf...hmm lets think a thf's job through...until 15 absolutely NOTHING to do, you arent a good DD in pt, and after 15 SA is half decent, I would still prefer just about any DD over it, and 30 you finally come into some use with SATA yet still cannot do good damage, and 33 you get VB and SATA VB is good for maybe a mithra taru or hume...then at 60 drk outbeats thf by subbing it, and doing the same thing just adding more damage...

[Tokitoki]

Why the hell did you even come on this section of the forums if you're just going to flame us. Go back to the rejected melee corner where you belong.

[Rogan]

I stated the fact that I don't think elvaan thfs are great and you guys come and get all defensive like DRG SUCKS!!! YOU GUYS ARE GIMPED!!! YOU DO NOTHING!!!!! well, I didn't ask I was stating my opinion and I can go wherever I would like on these boards...and I planned on someday considering getting thf to 45 for TH2 thats why I'm here

[Buuyon]

Originally posted by Tokitoki
Had to use SOuleater, last Resort, Sneak Attack with Guillotine just do to 700 DMG and he got full TP return... i did that at lv 45 with VB >.>

no you didnt...45 was the last lvl i pted with thfs and it was a mithra...he never broke 500...and you as a elvaan will not beat him...and guyincorp...right now my thf is at 27 and its so weak and boring i can barely pay attention...10 damage to a mandy is pitiful...and sa combo/fast blade does about...150...where as a war can do about that with one sturmwind...and past that with sa sturmwind...1-33 thf are weak shit...33+ they are alot better but still outdamaged...

[Tokitoki]

Just by the damage that you just stated you did i have come to a conclusion: you are the worst THF ever >.>

EDIT: Rogan i wasnt talking about you >.>

[Rogan]

Originally posted by Tokitoki
Just by the damage that you just stated you did i have come to a conclusion: you are the worst THF ever >.>

EDIT: Rogan i wasnt talking about you >.>

I dont remember ever seeing a thf doing over 20 with a dagger unless a crit hit in yuhtunga jungle myself included, lol if you wanna look back at my post please do, I did not turn this into a flame war some awesomely high lvl 8 elvaan thf did, I was just stating my opinion which I can do...so you can stop saying my job is "gimped' or whatever, cuz I really don't care and I've done fine with my job, I pted with a whm who had a parser log and he said I outdamaged everyone cept the drk without wyvern over a period of so and so fights, with wyvern I outdamaged everyone, and my wyvern outdamaged the pld and rdm combined , so I don't seem to be having much trouble but think what you'd like, and maybe it will get hard around 60 I dunno, I just don't think elvaan make great thf, just like I dont think taru make great like...mnk drk drg or war, not that they suck at it it's all in the person, but just an equally good equally equipped say mithra in this case (compared to elvaan) I think would much better suit the job, oh and please taru mnk drg drk and war's don't gang up on me, you're probly good at your job and you make uber blm whm rdm pld and rng's lol

[guyincorporated]

Originally posted by Rogan
and that's just you, and how you played drg maybe you werent good at it which is the likely case, and thf...hmm lets think a thf's job through...until 15 absolutely NOTHING to do, you arent a good DD in pt, and after 15 SA is half decent, I would still prefer just about any DD over it, and 30 you finally come into some use with SATA yet still cannot do good damage, and 33 you get VB and SATA VB is good for maybe a mithra taru or hume...then at 60 drk outbeats thf by subbing it, and doing the same thing just adding more damage...

Anyone else surpised that only a dragoon can muster up this level of delusion about the relative merits of a job?

[Omena]

Originally posted by Rogan
and that's just you, and how you played drg maybe you werent good at it which is the likely case, and thf...hmm lets think a thf's job through...until 15 absolutely NOTHING to do, you arent a good DD in pt, and after 15 SA is half decent, I would still prefer just about any DD over it, and 30 you finally come into some use with SATA yet still cannot do good damage, and 33 you get VB and SATA VB is good for maybe a mithra taru or hume...then at 60 drk outbeats thf by subbing it, and doing the same thing just adding more damage...

BS. How is removing half of mob HP in a single WS gimped?

I used to play dragoon, but I eventually got bored and since there were no good WS coming, I just had to switch to something different.

[Rogan]

Originally posted by guyincorporated
Anyone else surpised that only a dragoon can muster up this level of delusion about the relative merits of a job?

Sorry I believe it was you who said all drg can do is auto-attack and jump every 90 seconds?

[Tokitoki]

Technically... thats really all us melee do... Auto-attack and use a WS or JA every once in a while :sweat:

[Jaggywaggy]

no you didnt...45 was the last lvl i pted with thfs and it was a mithra...he never broke 500...and you as a elvaan will not beat him...and guyincorp...right now my thf is at 27 and its so weak and boring i can barely pay attention...10 damage to a mandy is pitiful...and sa combo/fast blade does about...150...where as a war can do about that with one sturmwind...and past that with sa sturmwind...1-33 thf are weak shit...33+ they are alot better but still outdamaged...

I could see why you'd say breaking 500 isn't possible, you got a decent but not awsome thief. But you're definitely wrong in that 500 can't be broken, I did it against flies pre 45 a ways back several times.

And to note my equipment has always been good but it has never been all HQs or anything likewise. Hairpin, LL, drones(beetle+1 on tp), I used swordbelt back then(either RK+1 or lifebelt now depending on SATA or tp gain), highest damage dagger for that lvl, etc. Basiclly good equip but nothing jaw dropping. Also being mithra would help, I'm a hume and have done this alot.

And take thieves up against mobs like spiders,flies, etc to see their full potienal. I've been 600ish quite a few times in the tree at 53-54. That's not even including the SC that comes after, which of course we make bigger ones than basiclly everyone minus the fluke once in a blue moon. 350 distorition I've seen quite a few times as my thief and most jobs just can't put up such high SCs. Although I had a galka mnk friend that could come close on fusion. However has equipment together was worth several million. He had "Perfect gear" since he had alot of gil from mining every single day with luck, and high smithing. Cross counters, snipers, brownbelt, you name it, the best stuff for total damage at early 50s.

The only jobs pre 60 worth mentioning to be even remotely close is war with GAX and maybe mnk with raging fists if the mob is heavily debuffed vs fire. The only true competion is of course the famous drk/thf. Of course people fail to mention that drk/thf offers "nothing" at all over drk/war during the tp build battles every other fight. Basiclly a drk without a sub and some added stats during the tp gain battles since the plain SA with /thf isn't jack squat.

When a mob is killed in 30 seconds from SC+MB at higher lvls, it's obvious you go into the next battle with under 50 tp. As I said drk/thf is a plain old drk without SJ during these inbetween battles with more stats. To do your job like thieves with huge WS+SC(which requires /thf) you give up most things that made you better than thf pre 60 during tp building battles: berserk, double attack, attack up trait.

And comparing our damage on normal hits is never done fairly... For one thing it's 15-25 for me on spiders, not the 1-5 you get from watching poorly equipped thieves during the tp gaining stage or us fighting crabs. But even myself as a hume hit for more than 5 unless it's buffs are up, roughly around 10+ most hits. 2ndly we attack once or 2.5 times for every time you attack. So for arguements sake it's not 20 vs 80,90, or whatever. It's more like 45 vs 80-100. Of course 20 and 80-100 are just examples. Depending on the gear,race, and mob different jobs will show far different average damage though.

Lets take our normal delay, 190-200 about. Lets assume ninja sub which is very common.

195+195= 390
-15% from ninja sub
My calc is dead so I'll I can't figure it up to the exact delay, but we can find a close enough guess I'm sure without it.

39 is 10% of 390, and 50% of 39 is 19.5...39+19.5=58.5
390-58.5=331.5

I did all the math right here so I could've made a human error but got it pretty much.

So for about every 330 delay+base delay we can attack twice. So a thief does indeed attack 2.5-3 times for every time a job with a heavy weapon attacks once? Although you have to at one point remember the random triple attack of thief, and the double attack for many DD melees. Yet another thing drk/thf misses out on. So without question we attack 2.5-3 times for every drk/thf attack. Take your '5 vs 100' elsewhere and mention numbers a bit more fair.

[Buuyon]

Originally posted by Tokitoki
Just by the damage that you just stated you did i have come to a conclusion: you are the worst THF ever >.>

EDIT: Rogan i wasnt talking about you >.>

good i hope i am the worst thf ever...its not a main job its a sub job for drk...and im around 5 dex off of the best gear....and i highly doubt 5 dex will put this huge uprise in damage from a god damn sa combo...
and how is removing half the mobs hp gimped? easy cuz one...you dont in one ws ever...and two by the other melees doing more DOT...think of it this way...in kuftal at 54-55 we where killing crabs at 1 min or quicker...that means you do one sata of 400-600(if you are lucky) and the rest of the fight doing 1-7 a hit...and if you have a nin you needa sata the nin right away for the added hate there giving you only 200 damage...so weeeee you did up to 600 that fight while i hit for 100 a hit...plus a ws that does 200-485...when you are fighting things that take like 5 mins to beat and you can scoop up 100 tp ever min then ya you can be some damaging shit...

now lets say you are fighting crabs in cape terrigan...they have 3600...if you where to take out half its heath in one ws you need to do 1800...basicly only a sidewinder can do that much...and its not common...

a thfs job doing damage really is only from 33-59...thats not very long...where as a say...drg will do pretty damn good damage(with wyvern out and right equips) till 59...then they live again at 66 with a sc for wheeling thrust>spinning slash...where its not the best SC i hear its still pretty damn good...

well then again thf can come back at 71 for evercaksdajldfh(what ever that quested ws of yours is called) to sc with that to cross reaper for a dark sc...but that requires the drk to sub war and most people have a static at 71...that dont have a drk and thf since the drk is subbing thf...so you get 33-59 and sorta 71-75

end result...unless your fighting something that lasts a few satas you will be out damaged...untill 55 when rng just rule the battlefield...

EDIT:jaggy...attack ups from sub jobs wont stack with ones i get from drk...all i lose is a few str berserk(wich is fun but ah well) and double attack(wich is more fun...but ah well also...)

[guyincorporated]

Originally posted by Rogan
Sorry I believe it was you who said all drg can do is auto-attack and jump every 90 seconds?

Up to level 26 when I quit? Hell yes that is what I said. If you are going to be a bad tank, I suppose you can provoke, too. I don't count weaponskills since any melee class can do them.

Note: I never said anything about their damage or their value to the party. If you read my message without being defensive (I know, it's a knee-jerk reaction for all dragoons), you'd have just seen me say that I, personally, found it to be a very boring job. A pity, too. I had my heart set on dragoon before the game launched.

[Rogan]

you asked who can make a jobs merits sound that boring I just was telling you that you did the same thing, that's all

[Hisdon]

eh...best THF's I've pted with have been Elvaan or Galka :| so can't really comment on what a good Mithra THF can do, but the Elvaans were no slackers and could easly plop down 400 dmg fuidama and 800+ Dancing Edges