Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Enfeebling colibri 61-66 ?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: Enfeebling colibri 61-66 ?

    Originally posted by Firewind View Post
    This is why I can't stand BRDs hitting Lolibri with Elegy instead of letting me cast slow.
    Er, if the party has Erase, that Carnage Elegy will save the healers more MP than Slow I. No reason not to stack Slow on top of Elegy either, if the average fight lasts over one minute.

    Originally posted by Icemage View Post
    If you're in a situation where you have the entire party (minus the Bard(s)/Corsair) Hasted, then yes, Slow is fine since it'll just bounce off of anyone who has Haste active. Everything else is a no-no, however.
    I still think Dia II is fine if you can Erase it. No PLD or even NIN will die from 5 seconds with Dia II on--heck, the PLD may not even notice for half a minute. heh.

    Probably not at exp levels, but if there's MP to spare and a merit party is killing fast, I'd put Haste on the BRD/NIN as well.
    Bamboo shadows sweep the stars,
    yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
    Moonlight pierces the depths of the pond,
    leaving no trace in the water.

    - Mugaku

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Enfeebling colibri 61-66 ?

      You should be casting Slow(keeping Haste on the tank/melees) and Dia I at the least, the 5% Def Down from Dia is not going to make any noticeable increase in the amount of damage your PLD is going to take, in all honesty neither will Dia II, but w/e. In an actual 75 merit party you don't need to be casting Slow, only Dia, as the mobs should be dying too quickly to warrant spending MP slowing each one individually, but at the 60s range they can still live long enough to warrant them swing slower.

      Originally posted by Armando View Post
      Fairly sure they simply re-cast the spell with their own stats.
      This is correct.

      Originally posted by Icemage View Post
      every once in a blue moon I'll toss Blizzard III if I think a chain is about to expire without a little help
      I tend to toss out Banishgas or Blizz3s just to keep things interesting for the melees, lol. I usually do it around 50% and tell them to kill it before they eat a Blizz to the face.
      Callysto of RamuhCaithsith - 75 RDM / BRD / COR / PLD / WAR / SCH / DRK

      Formerly Callisto of Ramuh. | Retired 5.28.10

      Callisto Broadwurst of Palamecia

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Enfeebling colibri 61-66 ?

        Er, if the party has Erase, that Carnage Elegy will save the healers more MP than Slow I. No reason not to stack Slow on top of Elegy either, if the average fight lasts over one minute.
        This. Carnage Elegy is probably the most overpowered non-crowd control debuff in the game - it definitely pays for the cost of the Erase and more. Slow is in no way a replacement for it. And Elegy + Slow is even more ludicrous.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Enfeebling colibri 61-66 ?

          Originally posted by Armando View Post
          This. Carnage Elegy is probably the most overpowered non-crowd control debuff in the game - it definitely pays for the cost of the Erase and more. Slow is in no way a replacement for it. And Elegy + Slow is even more ludicrous.
          I'm not a fan of reducing party damage output in an XP situation, even temporarily. Erase isn't terribly expensive, but it's not so inexpensive that you can afford to be casting it on every other fight on top of casting Slow, on top of casting Haste on everyone. Even good RDMs struggle to stay on top of a Haste cycle in the 60s - you really don't have that sort of MP just lying around most of the time.

          Granted, it'll often get sucked up by a shadow if your melees know what they're doing, but we're talking about (in the context of this thread) level 61-66, where you only have access to Seigan (Samurai) or Utsusemi: Ichi for DDs (ok, you might have an actual Ninja in your party who can keep shadows up 24/7, but that's one of 3-4 people it might be landing on).

          It's also terribly inconvenient when it lands on your Bard on a reflect, either they're spending time casting Erase on themselves if they're /WHM at 64+, or they have to wait for you to cast it on them (even worse).

          Besides, Colibri aren't exactly powerhouse attackers to begin with. If it weren't for their Pecking Flurry special attack, they'd be no threat whatsoever.


          Icemage

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Enfeebling colibri 61-66 ?

            Originally posted by Icemage View Post
            Erase isn't terribly expensive, but it's not so inexpensive that you can afford to be casting it on every other fight on top of casting Slow, on top of casting Haste on everyone. Even good RDMs struggle to stay on top of a Haste cycle in the 60s - you really don't have that sort of MP just lying around most of the time.
            It's precisely the lack of MP endurance before merit levels which makes Elegy so attractive, though.

            Plus, I'm also very much in favor of multiple cure sources in exp parties (and even merit parties!); the OP's party conveniently has a BLM who won't be casting much offensive spells on the Colibri anyway, so that BLM can offload a lot of curing from the RDM.


            Originally posted by Icemage View Post
            Besides, Colibri aren't exactly powerhouse attackers to begin with. If it weren't for their Pecking Flurry special attack, they'd be no threat whatsoever.
            Actually, they attack fast; people don't notice that as much in merit parties because the DDs tend to bounce them around. When a Greater Colibri stay glued on a DD, though, it's often Cure III > Cure IV > Cure III > Can we please bounce it already?! I don't want to spend 200 MP in one fight on cure?! > Cure III > Finally! > Regen

            Ask NIN tanks about exp level tanking on Colibri and Lesser Colibri in Aht Urhgan area--they'll tell you it's horrible. When they don't get TA WS, its hard to keep the birds interested. When they do get TA WS, it's hard to keep Utsusemi up--unless there's Elegy on the bird.

            As for Dia, in the LS merit party I had last night, 45% of the time the birds bounced my Dia right back to my Stoneskin. In fact, a couple of time the Dia effect came in handy when I had to sleep links and adds.

            (For the DDs? Let's just say there's more than one reason why I'm an advocate of /NIN for front line jobs.)


            Originally posted by Icemage View Post
            It's also terribly inconvenient when it lands on your Bard on a reflect, either they're spending time casting Erase on themselves if they're /WHM at 64+, or they have to wait for you to cast it on them (even worse).
            The days of BRD/WHM in exp parties are over for the vast majority of levels. If not, then they ought to be. And soon.

            Frankly, parroted Elegy never has to land on anyone except the BRD puller--who should be on /NIN--which means Utsusemi takes care of it the vast majority of the time. (Before anyone says that's only for merit parties, I'll testify that /NIN with only Ichi works just fine in exp parties for a BRD puller--been there, done that, many, many times.)

            The Elegy's benefit greatly outweighs the cost of a few rare, occasional Erases.
            Bamboo shadows sweep the stars,
            yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
            Moonlight pierces the depths of the pond,
            leaving no trace in the water.

            - Mugaku

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Enfeebling colibri 61-66 ?

              Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
              As for Dia, in the LS merit party I had last night, 45% of the time the birds bounced my Dia right back to my Stoneskin. In fact, a couple of time the Dia effect came in handy when I had to sleep links and adds.
              This, I prefer having Dia reflected back onto myself as often as possible, it's not enough to do anything to my stoneskin before it wears, and I like having the safeguard against being slept.

              Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
              (For the DDs? Let's just say there's more than one reason why I'm an advocate of /NIN for front line jobs.)
              Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
              Frankly, parroted Elegy never has to land on anyone except the BRD puller--who should be on /NIN--which means Utsusemi takes care of it the vast majority of the time. (Before anyone says that's only for merit parties, I'll testify that /NIN with only Ichi works just fine in exp parties for a BRD puller--been there, done that, many, many times.)
              Your second point kinda takes away from your first, if the DDs are paying attention they shouldn't really get hit with Elegy to begin with. I make it a point to wait until right when I see the bird pull up to return the Elegy pull, then provoke. As far as Dia, for player defense 5-10% really is not going to make a noticeable difference(the same way adding 5-10% will not make them take noticeably less damage, the mob still has a rather relatively large base D and a 4-hit TP move). Either it won't have a great affect on the DD it hits, or the DD is a WAR, and well, they have Berserk up so really it's kind of a moot point already.

              I can see /NIN DDs for merits if you have a newer healer or are low on support, but at this point I don't even take those parties, but that's a totally different debate anyways, the tl;dr of the on topic is that you should be using Dia as RDM in exp regardless.
              Callysto of RamuhCaithsith - 75 RDM / BRD / COR / PLD / WAR / SCH / DRK

              Formerly Callisto of Ramuh. | Retired 5.28.10

              Callisto Broadwurst of Palamecia

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Enfeebling colibri 61-66 ?

                you should be killing them too fast to worry about enfeebles. as said above, this is a melee burn mob so try to get your *other* person to be a bard or corsair and buff you guys with acc/att. when I do these mobs in the 61-62 range we grab a RDM, a few SAMs or DRGs, PLD and BRD. the BRD pulling with elegy is all you need and you should pretty much rape colibri.
                ***************************************
                | 90 SMN | 90 BRD | 90 BLM | 90 THF | 90 WAR |
                ***************************************

                5/5 BST +2
                2/5 WAR +2
                Farsha(85)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Enfeebling colibri 61-66 ?

                  Originally posted by Callisto View Post
                  Your second point kinda takes away from your first, if the DDs are paying attention they shouldn't really get hit with Elegy to begin with.
                  Er? What? The bit about DD/NIN's was about Dia. Who said they get hit by Elegy?



                  * * *

                  Going to go off on a tangent. Or two. (My apology...)

                  Originally posted by Callisto View Post
                  I can see /NIN DDs for merits if you have a newer healer or are low on support, but at this point I don't even take those parties, but that's a totally different debate anyways, the tl;dr of the on topic is that you should be using Dia as RDM in exp regardless.
                  My LS 'merit' party last night was DRG/NIN, RNG/NIN, SAM72(?)/NIN, THF73/NIN (pickup), RDM/WHM (rusty RDM healer--me). Greater Colibri, 18.2k/hr (w/out ring); I was mildly (and pleasantly) surprised.

                  The party was taking ~308 damage/minute on average (Total damage taken / Party duration ). What kind of damage/minute does an all DD/SAM (and/or SAM/not-NIN) merit party typically take?
                  Bamboo shadows sweep the stars,
                  yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
                  Moonlight pierces the depths of the pond,
                  leaving no trace in the water.

                  - Mugaku

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Enfeebling colibri 61-66 ?

                    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
                    Er? What? The bit about DD/NIN's was about Dia. Who said they get hit by Elegy?
                    Yeah, I got that part, I just meant that having Dia on your DDs is not a big deal, only having Elegy on them is really detrimental.

                    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
                    Going to go off on a tangent. Or two. (My apology...)

                    My LS 'merit' party last night was DRG/NIN, RNG/NIN, SAM72(?)/NIN, THF73/NIN (pickup), RDM/WHM (rusty RDM healer--me). Greater Colibri, 18.2k/hr (w/out ring); I was mildly (and pleasantly) surprised.
                    Not to sound like a jerk(I see the 72SAM wasn't a pickup so I'm assuming you were helping a friend get to 75, understandable), but that's not even a xp/hr # I'd consider taking, though that's also not a job setup I'd use either.

                    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
                    The party was taking ~308 damage/minute on average (Total damage taken / Party duration ). What kind of damage/minute does an all DD/SAM (and/or SAM/not-NIN) merit party typically take?
                    This is more or less the whole crux of the /DD vs. /NIN debate, when done properly /DD comes out ahead not only in XP/hr, but in damage taken, simply because things are not alive long enough to TP more than twice, and generally only one of those will be a Pecking Flurry.

                    This is obviously somewhat luck based as Third Eye is a pretty fickle mistress, and the entire party needs to be on board, not just one melee. The majority of 'bad experiences' that people have with /DD melees I'm betting is due to having 2 melees who are /NIN and playing conservatively, and one who is going balls-out and sponging like all hell. In order for it to work, all 3 melees need to be /DD and going full tilt. In the same vein all of them need to be strong to begin with, you aren't going to plow through things with 72 SAM/NINs, and 73 THFs, etc.

                    I'm not saying that every party should /DD, our particular LS parties are just typically made up of strong melees, 2 supports, one of them being a DD-minded COR. For the record I do also usually 2box my g/f's WHM to haste myself and toss out extra cures when I plan on asking for Refresh(Rune Chopper) and fulltiming Hasso, though the last 2 pickup RDMs have told me that they were fine on MP and it was unecessary.

                    Edit: I should have also pointed out that I'm assuming the healer is in fact being worked down to the bottom of their MP pool often, but really they should be. Like I said, everyone needs to be on board to go all-out.

                    Originally posted by Zoltar View Post

                    you should be killing them too fast to worry about enfeebles. as said above, this is a melee burn mob so try to get your *other* person to be a bard or corsair and buff you guys with acc/att. when I do these mobs in the 61-62 range we grab a RDM, a few SAMs or DRGs, PLD and BRD. the BRD pulling with elegy is all you need and you should pretty much rape colibri.
                    __________________
                    A 2 support party is a rare luxury at those levels in my experiences, and even then mobs tend to still live a fair amount longer than in merit parties, this is obvious by the fact that you're seeing chain 8-9 at the best generally rather than 1-200. You should still be using Slow/Dia.
                    Callysto of RamuhCaithsith - 75 RDM / BRD / COR / PLD / WAR / SCH / DRK

                    Formerly Callisto of Ramuh. | Retired 5.28.10

                    Callisto Broadwurst of Palamecia

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Enfeebling colibri 61-66 ?

                      Only having Elegy on the mob is not detrimental if you have a good setup. I also think that having a THF is a BIG help with burning these guys, especially b/c TA + Dancing Edge gives a good deal of hate to the PLD. This is crucial if you have some heavy hitters in the PT.
                      ***************************************
                      | 90 SMN | 90 BRD | 90 BLM | 90 THF | 90 WAR |
                      ***************************************

                      5/5 BST +2
                      2/5 WAR +2
                      Farsha(85)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Enfeebling colibri 61-66 ?

                        I'm not saying you can't get by with just Elegy, more that if you aren't casting Dia + Slow you're just being lazy. It makes a difference, and if you have any type of 2nd Refresh support you should be able to afford the MP.
                        Callysto of RamuhCaithsith - 75 RDM / BRD / COR / PLD / WAR / SCH / DRK

                        Formerly Callisto of Ramuh. | Retired 5.28.10

                        Callisto Broadwurst of Palamecia

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Enfeebling colibri 61-66 ?

                          Dia + Slow on a mob that's dead in 15 seconds, I don't see the point, especially with the RDM able to cure the PLD and refresh themself...maybe that means I'm lazy idk...I'd say you're correct in a conventional party though
                          ***************************************
                          | 90 SMN | 90 BRD | 90 BLM | 90 THF | 90 WAR |
                          ***************************************

                          5/5 BST +2
                          2/5 WAR +2
                          Farsha(85)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Enfeebling colibri 61-66 ?

                            15 seconds is a massive exaggeration to start, lol, especially at that level. Again, if you were killing that fast you would not see broken chains, and I'd need to see some photographic proof of a 60ish party hitting chain 200.
                            Callysto of RamuhCaithsith - 75 RDM / BRD / COR / PLD / WAR / SCH / DRK

                            Formerly Callisto of Ramuh. | Retired 5.28.10

                            Callisto Broadwurst of Palamecia

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Enfeebling colibri 61-66 ?

                              Erase isn't terribly expensive, but it's not so inexpensive that you can afford to be casting it on every other fight on top of casting Slow, on top of casting Haste on everyone.
                              Like Itazura said, Colibri are fast fuckers. I'm not sure how NINs pretend they can tank them, and on PLD you're not a whole lot better off thanks to the inability to use Defense food. 'Course you can pop Defender, if you don't mind shooting your hate in the foot.

                              Either way Erase is only 18 MP. If your MP is an issue you should be cutting off Slow, not Elegy+Erase. Slow's only 3 MP cheaper but sucks balls when compared to Carnage Elegy. Dropping the mob's attack frequency to 66% of what it was WILL result in MP savings and a very grateful tank.

                              Also like Callisto said I don't really buy this whole "mobs die too fast" thing at 60-65. I've never been in a level 60-70 party that chained past 9. "This is a merit mob" doesn't hold water when you're not fighting them as T/VTs, much less when your party isn't merited out the ass, wearing endgame gear, or rolling with double COR/BRD.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Enfeebling colibri 61-66 ?

                                Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
                                Actually, they attack fast; people don't notice that as much in merit parties because the DDs tend to bounce them around. When a Greater Colibri stay glued on a DD, though, it's often Cure III > Cure IV > Cure III > Can we please bounce it already?! I don't want to spend 200 MP in one fight on cure?! > Cure III > Finally! > Regen
                                I think my point had more to do with the fact that if you're doing due diligence and have DDs who are worth their salt, the Colibri die fast enough for the relatively limited MP used on Regen / Cures to not become an issue. If you're just barely making chain #4 or #5, then yes, obviously Elegy and Slow are going to be very useful because you're spending enough time for the effort to be worthwhile.

                                It really depends on the party composition and skill level of the players.


                                Icemage

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X