RDM Melee? Whered they go?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

You know, its funny how I usually come in and say all these things that Icemage and Taskmage are saying and I'm dubbed a "RDM hater." Granted, I probably say it in a more terse and discouraging manner, but they're saying pretty much what I always do.

See, putting my Dynamis example aside, RDMs just love to gloss over little details like, oh, how the job grows over time or reasons why they're invited to PT. In fact, Taskmage was being generous with level 50 being the stopping point, I'd say it was far earlier than that.

You are wanted for Enfeebling, Haste, Refresh and Cures. Yes, in that order. No one expects a RDM to magic burst, but hey, that's never stopped me.

If you seriously think RDM is as good a DD as anyone else (like MrMageo does), please put RDM down for a while and go and try out these other jobs you think its better than. Shit, I've seen people claim to outparse RNG, SAM, DRG, MNK, DRK and WAR. I hate to break it to you, but even lolPUP (and I bet you go "lolPUP") will run circles around you in terms of damage, even stripped down to thier skivvies.

Lately, I've found myself drawn to playing BRD and RDM again for one simple reason:

To show people how to do it right.

In regards to your sword:

Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em.
A true knight will sheathe his sword and all that.

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Delusional? We offer the same increase to party effectiveness as a second BRD or a COR.

Look at it this way...

Party 1 takes a WHM/SCH as a healer, A BRD, 3DD, and a RDM hybrid (or melee, or frontline or w/e you feel the term of the week should be) They leave to party at 12:15 after 15 minutes of setup and start killing at 12:30

Party 2 takes a RDM/WHM healer 3DD and 2 BRDS, they leave at 12:30 after spending almost 30 minutes to get that next BRD. Star killing at 12:45.

Now if both parties have no trouble chaining and no afk BS and both end at 3:00 which will get more EXP? The one who didn't waste an extra 15 minutes looking for a 2nd BRD.

The whole point i am trying to make is we are filling that 5th spot. BRD's and COR's don't always flock in pairs and are usually grabbed up real quick. A good front line hybrid job provides about the same support, where RDM can equal or surpass the support of an additional BRD.

BLU is decent as it can help cure, however it becomes hard to manage MP and keep damage up. Their melee is meh and true damage is through spells.

DNC is good for helping with erase or cure, but again focusing on helping with TP heals detracts from damage.

PLD can do good damage, however it is limited in its support to cures.

RDM can do decent damage (it is better than PLD and BLU) It can also provide support cures/haste/refresh/enfeebles and CC. Since it can do everything in one that is needed in this support role it edges the rest out.

Granted like I said most who hop on the frontline don't know their ass from a hole in the ground, but I would say 50% of the backline mages out there couldn't heal a party to chain 200+ if their lives depended on it.

I said before if I had the option of going RDM/NIN or RDM/WHM I would take the latter because I like being lazy. I also like getting buffers and merits for my other jobs and if it means I can get out and exp faster(as in not waiting for a second BRD to pop) by taking on more work then I will go RDM/NIN.

It is you who are delusional on this matter if you do not think RDM can provide the same support as a second BRD. They give Minuet and Ballad. +66 (hard cap for minuet) and +3/Tick MP recovery, both of which RDM can do in its place. (although with slightly different tools).

Edit*

Do you think before you talk BBQ?

What level RDM are you now still 65?

So obviously you don't know what a merited RDM is capable of. Not to mention there it is again, the damage paradox, the reason we provide parses of out damaging DD or being withing 85%-90% of them. I don't think we can I know we can. But that whole principle is besides the point, what we do on the front line is fill in gaps where BRD's or COR's wou;d normally be, if they were available

[Balfree]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I'll do whatever I want on the jobs I play, if anyone has any complaints about it...

I had something funny but I forgots it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Delusional? We offer the same increase to party effectiveness as a second BRD or a COR.

This is totally wrong and followed by more wrongness, so I'll just focus on this.

You are not anything like or remotely similar to a BRD or a COR. They enhance the PT, you help the PT endure. Vast difference.

BRD and COR do not come with a large MP pool (unless they're just morons that don't value things like +skill/CHR or, in COR's case, AGI and Ranged accuracy), they don't come with cures natively. BRD only has a a handful of enfeebles, COR can only enhance white and black magic enfeebles with Quick Draw, they don't have enfeebles natively at all.

Sure, BRDs give a form of Haste, but both they can COR boost a ton of stats that RDM can't even begin to touch. COR's go so far to be inspired by job traits/elements or merit categories.

Finally, I'd like to see a RDM or BRD equip a Joyeuse to feed Slugshot. Not only would RDM have to sub RNG for Sidewinder, thier Archery doesn't come close to COR's Marksmanship. A melee RDM without would have to use nukes to compete and would eventually run out of MP. Reason COR melee works better than BRD or RDM melee is because our buffs are not as frequently needed and have a superior duration to what BRD and RDM generally buff people with. That gives COR more time to melee than the other two.

I've been all three and I know what I like most and I approach it as such, so I play COR.

The only job RDM can really even compare itself to is SCH. SCH has many more similarities. If we want to throw them in with support classes, we're now talking about a supporter that is totally focused on the PT's damage endurance and little else. You won't see a SCH tossing out large cures, you might see them enfeeble somthing, but mostly, it all comes down to Accession Stoneskin and Phalanx.

Did I mention we can AoE your Enspells and give them to everyone? Its like having a RDM melee, only not

Oh and where nukes apply, we do it much better. Though as a RDM, I would still nuke, especially with a SCH subjob because those Tier IIIs are still expensive and it can speed up Haste/Refresh cycles here and there.

Requesting thread lock, because talking to Ice mage is like talking to a wall.

Just because Icemage is right and you are wrong is no reason to close a thread. Have you even noticed other RDMs tend to keep thier distance from you? There's a reason for that.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

You know, its funny how I usually come in and say all these things that Icemage and Taskmage are saying and I'm dubbed a "RDM hater." Granted, I probably say it in a more terse and discouraging manner, but they're saying pretty much what I always do.

Just an FYI, Icemage is also dubbed accordingly. Lago is far more fair in comparison to the likes of you two.

how the job grows over time

41 we get Refresh, 48 Haste (and Cure IV), 51 E.Staves. Heckovalota "growth" for just 10 levels there, especially compared to other jobs. Not to even mention we don't get any more Enfeebles until Merit level.

You are wanted for Enfeebling, Haste, Refresh and Cures. Yes, in that order.

Do you have Hyrist on your ignore list or something? (And for some reason, not MrMageo, how odd . . . ) I advise you go through and read his posts again: none of us have to do that anymore if we don't want to.

At those levels on, I'm pretty sure you people will do just fine with all the gravy-train bad RDMs PNKs who do nothing but spit out the occasional Haste and Refresh, anyway.

If you seriously think RDM is as good a DD as anyone else (like MrMageo does),

Dude, we don't. Nobody should expect a RDM to deal as much damage as a "specialist" DD. In fact, I remember Callisto saying once: "If I see myself outparse any of the DDs there, I kick them for leeching exp."

However, on the same note, you all seem to conspicuously change your song when we say that nobody should expect a RDM to maintain a party's health as well as a "specialist" Healer.

And back to MrMageo, is the sole reason none of you seem to have him ignored to use him as a living-straw-melee-RDM? None of us serious RDMs actually go with what he says, of course! In fact, he's just as bad as Icemage (if not worse, and that's saying something) in advocating one extreme of the RDM playstyle. All of us real RDMs all seem to advocate the true "Jack-of-all-Trades, Master of Enfeebling" approach (all trades, from healing to melee), or as Hyrist so kindly summed it up as, "generalist."

A true knight will sheathe his sword and all that.

Off-topic, but Good Lord, I hated that part. -.-; But, yes, a good RDM would know where any one of his trades would be most appropriate, this I don't argue against.

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

And back to MrMageo, is the sole reason none of you seem to have him ignored to use him as a living-straw-melee-RDM? None of us serious RDMs actually go with what he says, of course! In fact, he's just as bad as Icemage (if not worse, and that's saying something) in advocating one extreme of the RDM playstyle. All of us real RDMs all seem to advocate the true "Jack-of-all-Trades, Master of Enfeebling" approach (all trades, from healing to melee), or as Hyrist so kindly summed it up as, "generalist."

See, now, there's a difference in philosophy here. I'm more than happy to deck out in melee gear on RDM when it's appropriate (i.e. Campaign, and even there my preference isn't as heavily focused on damage so much as accuracy and defensive/endurance options).

RDM has three strengths. MP recovery. Enfeebling. Enhancing.

My "preferred" play style takes advantage of all three.

Melee RDMs ignore them all in favor of something that RDM doesn't do all that well, which is melee. Doesn't mean that you can't hit things at level 75 - you certainly can. But spending your time doing something that other members of the party can do better while explicitly ignoring the facets of your job which are its best traits just in the interests of "enjoying yourself" is incredibly selfish and short-sighted.

If you really want to knock out big huge numbers beating an implement of destruction on an enemy, there's a dozen jobs that do it far better.

To be perfectly honest, if you want huge damage numbers on a mage, go play melee WHM. All you Melee RDM who think Blau/Joy is so cool should see what a WHM can do with dual wielded Purgatory Mace/Kraken Club and Hexa Strike.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Just an FYI, Icemage is also dubbed accordingly. Lago is far more fair in comparison to the likes of you two.

Icemage isn't a hater, just elitist. So am I, there's a difference between hating something and being an efficiency whore. We happen to skew to jobs that are, in fact, very focused on being efficient.

41 we get Refresh, 48 Haste (and Cure IV), 51 E.Staves. Heckovalota "growth" for just 10 levels there, especially compared to other jobs. Not to even mention we don't get any more Enfeebles until Merit level.

Its not just when you get them that's "growth" but how you grow into using them. Some RDMs never find thier rhythm and the good ones do. The good ones will know what actions are appropriate when a situation arises, the bad ones will just want to yank out thier sword and start flailing no matter what the situation is, whether they have geared for it or not.

Do you have Hyrist on your ignore list or something? (And for some reason, not MrMageo, how odd . . . ) I advise you go through and read his posts again: none of us have to do that anymore if we don't want to.

Putting it as plainly as I can - Hyrist used to be where MrMageo is a couple years back. The difference is that now he's grown up, but since RDM is still all he really does (along with some BLU on the side), he wants to melee. That's understandable and I respect that. Its not my situation, I've levelled more jobs, but I see where he's coming from.

I've grouped with Hyrist and he's a fairly good RDM, I've got no problems with him or how he plays. See, Hyrist doesn't force melee RDM on PTs , he just does what I consistantly advocate melee RDMs do - if you want to melee, find a PT will accept that.

And he does. If we meritted and he wanted to melee, I'd be cool with that. My offer to merit (barring events and quests) always stands with Hyrist. Unbeknowst to some people, I actually don't always want a burnwhore PT.

MrMageo has had the opportunity to level other things, much moreso that Hyrist has. Not only that, after seeing the differences, he still wants to force RDM melee on the situation and insist not only that it does melee as well as NIN or MNK, but that NIN is a top tier DD. I'll be damned if there's a day a NIN outdamages my RNG.

Its like the difference between a newb and a noob. A newb learns, a noob does not. And I'm not saying Hyrist is either, but Mageo is most certainly the latter. Mageo had every opportunity to be proven wrong and still ignores the facts and even pulls out bullshit numbers to try to give them credibility. Hyrist accepts the facts and just plays to his own liking.

Big difference.

However, on the same note, you all seem to conspicuously change your song when we say that nobody should expect a RDM to maintain a party's health as well as a "specialist" Healer.

When you look a RDM just barring subjobs for a moment, you can see the original intent was not for it to eclipse WHM as a healer. That said, I assure you that if you're going against IT++ mobs, WHM is a vastly superior healer and that it would be requisite that a RDM be there for enfeebling and dispelling.

But when you skew target mobs down to VT, things change. This change didn't come with ToA exclusively, I saw it back in my BRD days during CoP. Its existed Valkrum Dunes and some people still can't grasp the simple fact grouping and taking down VT and T mobs is much faster EXP than going against IT++. Yet, the morons will still nag you to pull IT++ before you get to ToA, where mobs are as weak as shit by design.

And that where RDM gains overwhelming ground. PTs are taking less damage because they're all favoring /NIN and insisting on the presence of a BRD or COR before they leave town. RDM can manage a lot easier than WHM could in that situation.

But have you ever been the sole main healer on RDM with no BRD or COR support against IT++?

It really sucks and you start to see that RDM wasn't really intended to do main healing. I will not take the PT invite if I'm the only source of both healing and refresh against IT++. That's when a WHM should be there and I should be focused on backup healing, enfeebling, support and MBing.

And that's the situation I enjoy playing RDM most in, since ToA won't give that to me, I'll just use level sync to find the way I liked to play. Any RDM that's still complaining about being a Pink Mage in EXP/Merit after this update, but still wants the EXP they get from ToA camps, all I have to say to you is this:

Level Sync or Cry Moar.

And back to MrMageo, is the sole reason none of you seem to have him ignored to use him as a living-straw-melee-RDM? None of us serious RDMs actually go with what he says, of course! In fact, he's just as bad as Icemage (if not worse, and that's saying something) in advocating one extreme of the RDM playstyle. All of us real RDMs all seem to advocate the true "Jack-of-all-Trades, Master of Enfeebling" approach (all trades, from healing to melee), or as Hyrist so kindly summed it up as, "generalist."

Again, Icemage is just a cold, calculating elitist. But unlike MrMageo, he's not pulling pulling numbers and "facts" out of his ass. There's a reason for that two, once you get up there with three of four jobs at 75, you usually want meritting done and over with as quickly as possible. Nothing wrong with that, but its not fun for everyone. However, getting merits done quickly in an HNMLS PT is just Icemage's style. To him, that's fun.

Its not fun to Hyrist and not always fun to me. I have two characters with two 75 jobs each, soon to be more and have coordinated my merits so both characters can specialize in related professions and, as such, spend as little time meritting as possible. So in that respect, I can be a bit more flexible.

Hell, I prefer campaigning my merits to PTing them on COR and Level Syncing down to any level on RNG to merit. Saves me a lot of gil, being a COR and RNG is pricey. We all play according to our situation and job needs.

[Aksannyi]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I thought about typing a really long response to this thread, but I'm just going to sum it up in a few points:

Meleeing:
It's fun when I'm soloing, farming, skilling up, etc. My gear is decent but nowhere near acceptable for using it to merit, so I don't even try it. I'm okay with that.

Pink Maging:
You wanted one of the most die-hard "OMG RDM CAN NOT MAIN HEAL EVAR" types, I was one of them, but my first 22k/hr merit party changed that. Give me two bards and 3 melees, I'll keep haste up until the cows come home. Which is not to say that I wouldn't prefer to be healing on WHM (because I would) but RDM main heal can be fun.

Nuking
Much like melee, if you're geared for it, you can have at it. My nuke set is quite respectable (if not good) and I put up some impressive numbers, MB or not. Again, time and place, but worth gearing for.

Enfeebling
Most definitely my favorite part of the RDM job, if only I got to do it more often. I was in a level sync party at 66 on imps, and I'd forgotten how much of a challenge it is to stick debuffs on those bastards. Exp was slow, but it was refreshing for a change. READ: Level Sync adds variety into an otherwise repetitive profession. Use it. =)

Don't have a lot to say on melee itself, because I really don't do it. I used to pull out my sword in sky, but I stopped going to sky (and in my new shell, I was always on WHM anyway) so that's fallen to the side. I've recently picked up WAR (it's at 62 right now) and it's a lot more fun melee-wise to pick up a job meant for meleeing. I love RDM, but there's a time and a place, and 95% of the game is neither that time nor that place.

Also, I will say that this thread has been really entertaining. Some of the responses had me laughing pretty damn hard.

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Just because Icemage is right and you are wrong is no reason to close a thread. Have you even noticed other RDMs tend to keep thier distance from you? There's a reason for that.

Icemage is right in terms of backline performance, I hold him in high regard on that topic. But it is evident he knows little to nothing of what RDM acctually does when it shifts into a hybrid role (and neither do you evidently).

RDM's who melee, do so to make up the lost damage from a secondary BRD or COR. We provide our 18-20% of total damage to mob to make up for the increase of the 18-20% the BRD or COR would provide otherwise. That is why we melee. If we didn't there would be little to no point inviting a second(or a) RDM to the party if there is already a dedicated healer, as other jobs can easily support a backline mage just as us. But no other job can handle haste, or refresh, or cures, or enfeebles, or CC, while doing so.

BRD's and COR's use their abilities to buff and thus support the party. We do not have an AoE buff, we must rely on our personal level of melee to match the boost a 2nd BRD or COR provides, and we must rely on our spells to assist the party.

Icemage clearly stated as I have in the past in order to obtain high octane parties even a sole backline RDM needs some type of support, even if it is occasional DS-Curagas to sustain indefinite chains. Why there is some type of link between a RDM doing it all while meleeing I do not know. It is possible on colibri as /DNC or /BLU but your not going to see 25K parties that way.

This is totally wrong and followed by more wrongness, so I'll just focus on this.

Right because you have the experience of it, lets see some numbers BBQ? How much does double minuet boost a DD's potential, I reckon somewhere in the area of 15-20% (I know for a fact it is 20% on birds). A good RDM can do that same 20% increase.

You are not anything like or remotely similar to a BRD or a COR. They enhance the PT, you help the PT endure. Vast difference.

An additional COR or BRD for the love of god learn to read. An additional COR or BRD best be /WHM or they are going to be taking a quick walk back to WG and lfg. They are there to support everything, including the mage, helping the mage to endure with evokers, ballad, and cures.

BRD and COR do not come with a large MP pool (unless they're just morons that don't value things like +skill/CHR or, in COR's case, AGI and Ranged accuracy), they don't come with cures natively. BRD only has a a handful of enfeebles, COR can only enhance white and black magic enfeebles with Quick Draw, they don't have enfeebles natively at all.

Whats your point? Are you trying to make my case for me? See above in regards to Additional BRD's or COR.

Sure, BRDs give a form of Haste, but both they can COR boost a ton of stats that RDM can't even begin to touch. COR's go so far to be inspired by job traits/elements or merit categories.

Like what attack and accuracy? If you have to waste time increasing ACC then perhaps you should find new melee, or a whole new group all together. +ATK is already covered the most a BRD can provide is +66 which is about 20% on colibri, Irconically enough that is the average amount of damage a RDM will do by the end of the party. COR can do some neat tricks I wont lie, but they are inferior to BRD, and RDM can do anything a 2ND BRD can do.

Finally, I'd like to see a RDM or BRD equip a Joyeuse to feed Slugshot. Not only would RDM have to sub RNG for Sidewinder, thier Archery doesn't come close to COR's Marksmanship. A melee RDM without would have to use nukes to compete and would eventually run out of MP. Reason COR melee works better than BRD or RDM melee is because our buffs are not as frequently needed and have a superior duration to what BRD and RDM generally buff people with. That gives COR more time to melee than the other two.

Again what is your point? I have seen lots of good COR drop some nice numbers. But that is from the backline in a BRD+COR party. Your beating around the bush, your implying that 2ND BRDS or COR are always available, which they are not. RDM fills that void very well, equally to BRD, and Better than COR. But I will say it again, If I had the option of being in a group with 2 BRDS or BRD+COR as a backline job, or being in a group with 1 BRD and 1 Healer as RDN/NIN, I would take the MP gear over the sword 9/10. Not because EXP is any better, but because I like to be lazy, and we all know how pathetic merits are with that type of setup, pop in a movie, eat some popcorn and ram those macro buttons.

A melee RDM without would have to use nukes to compete and would eventually run out of MP.

? you sure about that? my average 700 (600 or so on mamool) eviscerations would have to disagree. My average 22 damage enspell (28*.80) would like to disagree. I seldom nuke unless the off chance a SC is made. Nuking takes a backseat everywhere we go, unless we go to specifically nuke something. Contrary to your opinion a few pages ago, this includes backlining.

Seriously BBQ what level is your RDM at now? What kind of merits do you have if it is 75? Do you know anyone that has merited themselves to be a hybrid RDM? Did you fail reading class?

For the last time, RDM melee is used to supplement the missing 2nd BRD or COR, we can provide the same support they can, this is why RDM melee is used in EXP, its not to stroke an epeen, its to provide the party with the best exp possible, if a BRD or COR is available for that slot, then take them, if not RDM Hybrid will work just fine. Seriously fuck learn to read.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

RDM has three strengths. MP recovery. Enfeebling. Enhancing.

My "preferred" play style takes advantage of all three.

Melee RDMs ignore them all in favor of something that RDM doesn't do all that well, which is melee.

I actually only have one issue with your post. Whichever line a Red Mage is on should have no bearing on their performance in these "strengths" you list (which I don't argue against, either). If they are ignoring them at all, whether they are on the front-line meleeing or on the back-line healing, they're just a bad Red Mage.

(Another thing I take issue with: buffs like Haste and Refresh don't last very long at all, like 'kitten said, and is annoying at the very least. I mean, at 71 a Summoner can actually Hastega much more efficient than us, and until then a White Mage can share the Hasting duties, but, still, the fact that it's an issue at all kinda sucks. And Bard songs are just silly . . .)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

MrMageo, if posting numbers were actually needed to refute you, I would easily win because you make up your numbers and can't do math.

Additionally, your attitude is my RDM needs to be 75 to know the dynamics of RDM at 75. You're saying this to someone who has now levelled four jobs to 75 and has been playing for almost five years.

• SCH has all the Tier I enfeebles RDM has under RDM sub.
• SCH cures, buffs the PT, nukes respectably.
• I've managed Haste cycles and Refresh cycles as RDM in IT++ PTs.
• BRD does have some enfeebling, knowing when to use Threnody and Elegy is important.
• COR has to watch for Paralyze, Dia, Slow, etc and decide which effect to maximize with Quick Draw.
• Oh, then there's RNG. Acid Bolts, Blind Bolts, Demon Arrows, Holy Bolts, Bloody Bolts. Yeah, totally nothing to do with enfeebling or magic damage there, no gear knowledge required - I'm just some dumb DD that's lower on the tiers than NIN

Also, I'm not a RDM just coming up from nowhere, I was out levelling RDM when you were in your diapers in West Sarutabaruta. I just stopped playing before ToA because, well, I got burned hard on a static and then didn't like what EXPing turned into for RDMs in ToA. I didn't bitch about the situation, I just chose not to partake in it.

So, like I always have with various jobs, I waited for the opportunity to play RDM on my terms again. This update not only lets me play RDM and BRD on my terms again, but also gives my DRG, BST, THF and DNC have excellent levelling opportunities at any level. Before this update, I thought RDM, BRD and DRG would be shelved for good, but now I'll find time to level them. Hell, now BST PTs just got a lot easier to make and we might finally get some data on Beast and Puppet Rolls.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I'd offer to marry you if i wasn't already involved....






....kidding

I think his wife and VERY ADORABLE new baby might have something to say about that!




fyi, I think the baby can take you...

Icemage isn't a hater, just elitist. So am I, there's a difference between hating something and being an efficiency whore. We happen to skew to jobs that are, in fact, very focused on being efficient.

Whoooooa there! I agree with most of what Icemage says (don't pass out IM!) but I don't consider myself an elitest. I prefer to think of it as........BEING GOD DAMN SENSIBLE! Seriously, if people would just stop, clear their minds, and use the brain god gave them they could understand both points. While I agree that there is a VERY FUCKING SMALL group of rdms that can have it all, the point is the group is VERY SMALL. That small group is trying to get the rest of us to accept ALL melee rdms just so they can feel the love. So they are expecting me to 99 out of 100 times that I party with a melee rdm to endure a SUCK ASS PARTY. Then that 1 time that I do actually get a well geared rdm that cares about doing his job effieciently and correctly, I will fall down on my knees and kiss his royal ass. {Thanks for the offer but I'll have to pass.} I prefer every party to be efficient and for people to do their jobs in a way that makes the party flow smoothly. If I want to make 30k exp and you want to make 30k exp with a melee rdm in those 99 other parties, then after an hour I'll be off doing other things like sipping margaritas by the pool while you're still stuck in game for 2 more hours making the rest of that 30k.

If they are ignoring them at all, whether they are on the front-line meleeing or on the back-line healing, they're just a bad Red Mage.

And at least 90% of them do.









/em beats on several dead horses!

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Right BBQ I forgot you've had experience riding chain 150+ being the lone mage trying to keep MP use under control, in enough time to convert. I imagine knowing when to drop spells equates to when/when not to fire gil at a mob with status bolts.

I can see how you can have an opinion on RDM being a hybrid in a party with your extensive knowledge on how to spend your merits.... oh wait you don't, and you can't without hurting your other jobs.

I leveled RDM and RDM alone (well DNC too but its like a RDM as far as general merits go) for the sole reason of the shit I can do with a swap of a sub, and different gear. Im not saying, backline is teh suck nor am I saying frontline is the best. If it comes off like that its because your head is in the clouds.

RDM is versatile, more so then BRD/COR/SCH/RNG so you don't know jack.

You know your jobs, I know mine I do not come into your BRD or COR or RNG or SCH pages and say lulz you do this and that, because I do not play them at 75 and do not know how they work there. I could easily say.

Well im like a BRD I carry buff cycles and CC, and use some enfeebs
Im like a COR I can buff and range attack an enemy
Im like a RNG I know how to enfeeble with the right things, and I can shootz ma bow
Im like a SCH I know how to cast spells and such.

Thing is I don't because the way jobs are played changes at 75 in merits (you should know this having leveled 4)

TGM:

I don't think it is an appeal to have all melee RDM's accepted, I don't think it ever was. (not for me anyway). It is an appeal to show what we are capable of, and how we can best roll with what we got. There are some good things that come from a RDM Hybrid, such as filling that 2nd BRD or COR slot when none are seeking. The argument always comes to 99/100 times the guy sucks. How are they supposed to get any better when the information sources get bogged down, and misinformed by people on the other side of the coin. (ie. BBQ saying RDM does not support a party as well as a 2nd BRD, or icemage saying hybrids don't worry about MP recovery, enfeebling or enhancing.) That is why people still are poor at it, they come to these sites to find info on it and watch for 8 pages as 2-3 people try to explain how it works, and 15 people say no no no, post dead horses, and stupid comments.

In contrast I have seen many many many piss poor backline RDM. I had one in my group about a month ago that would not cast haste, or -na spells as /WHM. I was /NIN carrying haste/dia/cures on mamool. After about 20 minutes of him sucking I told leader to boot him and either find another RDM WHM or SCH and we keep going or a BRD, COR, DNC, BLU, DD PLD and Ill go /WHM. We ended up getting a SCH to come out and got our 20K/hr.

It is just more apparent when a Hybrid RDM sucks because they fail at doing 2 key things.

1. Suplementing damage
2. Supporting the party

Its not a gripe to get you guys to accept joe-bow the errant gear melee RDM, its going to be done anyway, so it should be done in a way that helps the group. Take a look around the forums and see how many times people ask about back line work you will be suprised how often things like /blm or /whm come up. Or do I need to haste the tank etc etc. We answer those questions, without hesitation, and when it comes to melee when someone asks, what is the best way I can do it. We get the answer don't. So they go out and suck.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I truly respect the person that takes the extra time to go out earn the equips and read up on how to play their job optimally. That goes for EVERY job. I know I fall into the average joe catagory on my jobs because I just don't have the time for this type of research and dedication. And thats my point, most players fall into the average catagory and can't and/or won't be able to achieve the standards that a good melee rdm would need to. Therefore it doesn't matter if there is an entire forums dedicated to the melee rdm and how to play the job perfectly every time, the majority of people will not read it or will and not be able to do what it suggests. So we'll still have that 1%.

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

It doesn't just revolve around gear. When I started I ran off the AH, I had a miser, SH, Chiv Chain, Woodsman rings, all stuff that is easily obtained via farming for a couple hours a day. The average joes I was refering to are the ones who do not even attempt to make an effort in being effective.

I am quite sure if you went and decided hey im going to try out this hybrid business, you would get some melee gear. The trouble is most RDM's who melee do not, and they give those of us that are willing to even get the minimal amounts of gear a terrible name.

I mean of course the ones you see swinging a fencers degen (or whatever our AF sword was) while wearing errants and MP rings, those are the bad ones and those are the ones that are remembered.

A good RDM goes un-noticed even if they are playing hybrid. I don't know how many times Ive been told wow I forgot you were even here, in both backline and frontline. The RDM's who are noticed are usually noticed because they are doing something wrong or not doing anything at all, to be perfectly honest I know alot more bad backline RDM's then frontline ones. Mostly because instead of saying things like you newb put down the sword, I offer them advice on how to make them better.

But then there is the people who don't care which probably comprises a good 75% of the class as a whole. Id imagine the majority of RDM's in this game are 75 for one reason. Merit Parties, the same reason people chose to level BRD(and I have seen alot of terrible BRD's as well). This collection of "Im a RDM or BRD I can do what I want cuz Ill get an invite anyway" are the true shitty players. Not the guy who is swinging a martial annelace in Wise gear, because he is at least making an attempt. It is not the mage who casts in a vermy, because he understands the importance of MP. It is the ones who just don't care either way who put forth no effort, or give up on the class because they don't like how it is played, yet try to tell others how to play it (im looking at you bbq). That are the schmucks and newbs.

If you put in effort people will respect that, people don't expect you to have xxx peice of gear all the time unless they are an elitist prick (im looking at you icemage) the majority of this game is average, and if average is equal to average then and average RDM can work with that. But you have to put in some effort to reap the reward, otherwise you can end up like a guy I know who sits in WG all day LFP asking if he can rep you. His name is Fumahnchoo and he is an example of bad RDM in all areas. Don't be like fumahnchoo, put some effort in, people respect that much.