RDM Melee? Whered they go?

[TheGrandMom]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I don't even care if he manages to cast it as soon as it wears, just so long as it gets back on in a minute or two.

You're very understanding.....I'm not. 2 minutes until you refresh me gets you a boot in the ass. You are there to do a job and if your melee'ing is getting in the way of that, then you are of no benefit to me. (There are of course situations that happen that might knock a refresh chain off the tracks and thats totally understandable and not what I'm addressing.) My experiences with melee'ing rdms has not been good. They worry about their TP and not their MP so they refuse to rest for MP even if convert isn't up for a minute or two. They pay attention more to who they can skillchain with than they do with keeping refresh/haste/debuffs up. One thing I will say about melee rdms is that, being that close to the mob, they usually are great dispellers.....if they aren't out of MP. I've been a melee rdm and I've been a backline rdm and I KNOW I do a better job as a backline rdm. My parties are more efficient and I get more exp/limit points.

[Tek(Selphiie)]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I wasn't like some people he may have partied with that scream ZZZZ the second sleep hits even though you're already in the process of casting Curaga

Lol I hate that. There are so many people who will just spam "Zzzzzzz" RIGHT as they are getting slept, im sitting here with my macro on the cure/curaga macro, like "Reallllyyyy.....??"

RDMs get swords, they can use it.
RDMs get Staves, they can use it.

Its all up to the individual RDM and what S/HE wants to do, but it is also the responsibility of that RDM to be smart enough to know when to do it, and when not to do it. Weigh the pros and cons of the situation.

Is this a situation where meleeing is acceptable?

Is this a situation where It would benefit not only me but the entire party/alliance if I sit in the back and support?

Is this a situation where I should not be in a certain radius of the mob?

Is this a situation where I am one of those Red Mage's who want to play the game the way I want to play it and don't give a damn what other's think but im still going to DD with my sword in INT gear anyway?

Like I said before, and I'll say it again.

Parsers, Situations, Screenshots, Stats, whatever, can be thrown back and forth over countless forums, over countless different threads, but it won't change anyone's mind. Well, you might convert maybe one or two people, but in the end, it is all up to the judgment of the Individual.

Theres just nothing you can do about that.

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

said stuff posted a picture

What is your point? Big whoop you broke chain 200 do you want a cookie?

Looks like you were real busy in that party. I mean no cures for a whole fight? or do you always cast Dia at the end of a mobs life to make it look like you are busy?

What does race have to do with the DD's? Im pretty sure that 2nd BRD or COR buffed them to the nuts.

Lastly were you alone in your camp? If you were then lucky you. If not than even luckier you because the other party must have sucked?

It is possible to get +200 of colibri as well if you are able to pluck a couple from down below.(or up above if at bottom)

However if your sharing the zone with one other camp, consider it no contest eventually you will kill to fast and ruin your chain.

At MJSP it is just as hard. One other group pretty well kills any chance of a high chain.

Your strawman post is redundant.

20K+/hr is 20K+/hr.

[Balfree]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Haste.


Haste.


Refresh.


Haste.


Sit.


Sit.


Sit.


Oh hey, is that a spider on the ceiling?


Sit.


Ooooh someone got hit, Cure IV.


Sit.


Haste.


Haste.


Refresh.


Haste.


Sit.


Damn the chips are kinda far, I think I can grab the bag with my feet if I stretch.


Sit.


Sit.

Cast Enfire.
Cast Haste.
Sword Hit.
Sword Hit.
Sword Hit.
Sword Hit.
Sword Miss.
Sword Hit.
Sword Hit.
Sword Miss.
Do Weapon Skill for 100 damage.
Sword Hit.
Sword Hit.
Sword Hit.
Sword Miss.

So you're saying that this is better?

Plus I don't eat chips, it ruins my diet

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

What is your point? Big whoop you broke chain 200 do you want a cookie?

Looks like you were real busy in that party. I mean no cures for a whole fight? or do you always cast Dia at the end of a mobs life to make it look like you are busy?

What does race have to do with the DD's? Im pretty sure that 2nd BRD or COR buffed them to the nuts.

Lastly were you alone in your camp? If you were then lucky you. If not than even luckier you because the other party must have sucked?

It is possible to get +200 of colibri as well if you are able to pluck a couple from down below.(or up above if at bottom)

However if your sharing the zone with one other camp, consider it no contest eventually you will kill to fast and ruin your chain.

At MJSP it is just as hard. One other group pretty well kills any chance of a high chain.

Your strawman post is redundant.

20K+/hr is 20K+/hr.

Show me a pic of a melee RDM breaking 200+ chain on MJSP. I don't think it's possible without insane amounts of luck. You can't maintain party effectiveness for that long with only one puller and/or no other support healing. Note the HP/MP totals in my pic - on chain #220 we still had basically full HP and MP across the board. Heck, I had more MP left (777) than most melee RDMs have when they haven't cast a single spell yet.

As I recall, there was one other group at MJSP that day on the south end - we were on the north end, so there were only 3 or 4 spawns being shared between us, and that only when they decided to pull Skoffins, which was basically never (I find most groups there shy away from them because they don't have the firepower to take them down without breaking chain).

I cured plenty in that party. You should know better than to assume that any party will avoid taking damage against Mamool Ja (or even Sea Puks for that matter). But I make maximum use of Regen to extend my MP resources, which leaves me with a lot more MP to keep in reserve than a melee RDM who can't possibly be bothered to take "so much time" out of their sword swinging time to cast such a long spell.

I've gotten 200+ chains against Colibri as well, but that's not nearly as hard to do aside from the inevitable overcrowding. I think I managed a chain #260ish there when Nyzul first opened up, before the masses discovered it as a camp. Colibri are soft targets, though, so that's not much of a meter stick.


Icemage

[Callisto]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

So you're saying that this is better?

Eh not really(though I do more than 100 ), I only merit on COR now because of the blahness in general that RDM in merits has become. Figure if I'm going to be a DDing support job may as well put up some bigtime #'s. That said, my melee BRD is getting hot, just need N.Feet and a Blau, lol.

Plus I don't eat chips, it ruins my diet

Substitue pretzels I guess, fatty!

[Electricity Gone Human]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Cast Enfire.
Cast Haste.
Sword Hit.
Sword Hit.
Sword Hit.
Sword Hit.
Sword Miss.
Sword Hit.
Sword Hit.
Sword Miss.
Do Weapon Skill for 100 damage.
Sword Hit.
Sword Hit.
Sword Hit.
Sword Miss.

So you're saying that this is better?

Plus I don't eat chips, it ruins my diet

Needs Moar STR+ DEX+ and ATT+ ACC+ Gear for WS

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Show me a pic of a melee RDM breaking 200+ chain on MJSP. I don't think it's possible without insane amounts of luck. You can't maintain party effectiveness for that long with only one puller and/or no other support healing. Note the HP/MP totals in my pic - on chain #220 we still had basically full HP and MP across the board. Heck, I had more MP left (777) than most melee RDMs have when they haven't cast a single spell yet.

Im sure the rest of your party did nothing to help that chain did they. Especially that BRD, and 2nd BRD or COR you had. It was all you eh.

Right and you obviously had support healing, so what is your point? I see a few MP pools their someone else has a way to cure I guarantee it. So it is ok for a backline RDM (or WHM whichever you were) to have a secondary support (which is almost needed at those camps to achieve high chains like that) but it is not ok to have a RDM melee support that same backline mage? Interesting.

We already know a RDM can provide about the same % boost to the overall effectiveness of the party so again what is your point?

You think this is some flex muscle thing about being able to do everything at once? On bird parties maybe but they are jokes.

On mamool, forget about it, even a sole back line RDM needs some type of support at those camps eventually. Get over yourself, if you can't keep up with the concept then don't run in the race.

As I recall, there was one other group at MJSP that day on the south end - we were on the north end, so there were only 3 or 4 spawns being shared between us, and that only when they decided to pull Skoffins, which was basically never (I find most groups there shy away from them because they don't have the firepower to take them down without breaking chain).

So you out pulled a party just like I said because why? you said it yourself, I even bolded it for you.

I cured plenty in that party. You should know better than to assume that any party will avoid taking damage against Mamool Ja (or even Sea Puks for that matter). But I make maximum use of Regen to extend my MP resources, which leaves me with a lot more MP to keep in reserve than a melee RDM who can't possibly be bothered to take "so much time" out of their sword swinging time to cast such a long spell.

Your right, I withdraw that assumption, regen is a great spell, I use it liberally on the front line if it is called for. (Ill tell you why in a second)

I've gotten 200+ chains against Colibri as well, but that's not nearly as hard to do aside from the inevitable overcrowding. I think I managed a chain #260ish there when Nyzul first opened up, before the masses discovered it as a camp. Colibri are soft targets, though, so that's not much of a meter stick.

Im not using it as a meter stick, you rambled some stuff about colibri groups, then tossed up a mamool SS. Clearly implying it was better. I simply was closing off that by saying it is not impossible to do it on birds. Personally it didn't ever matter where I partied, If I was able to I would melee, if not then I would back line. Either way RDM is equally as effective.

To extend on this, do you seriously think we melee RDM's go to the frontline just to swing swords? Seriously do you think that? answer here

I go to the frontlines because I can fill the void left by a 2nd BRD or COR better than any other job. I take on full dia loads, half haste loads (or in the case of SCH full) , help cure (with cures or regen), and CC. If needed I can pull and still support. If it is a WHM I can keep up a refresh full time. God knows why a single BRD has so much trouble doing it. There are some yes who go only to swing swords, but for those of us who actually succeed at it we go to fill a whole that is not always filled.

Everyone of us knows that 3DD/2SUP/1HEAL parties are more effective than a 4DD/1SUP/1HEAL. But once they start packing BRD's in a 2 for one package there is usually a whole missing. Which we can fill really well, as can BLU or DNC, or COR/WHM.

Which takes me back to this question. What is it you think we do on the front line?

Now I would like to talk about why damage records are kept.

It is not for us to say look I can do as much as an average SAM, it is because the majority of the population comes to the conclusion that damage is better. If we can show yes we can deal good damage then that takes that argument away.

This is the only reason. I could care less if I get out damaged 100% of the time. As long as I bring that constant 18-20% total damage every time, and take pressure of the main healer, I have done my job filling the role that I am there to do, and that is support the party. 2nd BRD's supplement the party with Songs to increase damage, MP longevity, and support heals. Melee RDM's have no songs to cast, so we must supplement that increased damage by physically providing it ourselves. We supplement MP longevity with Refresh, and our own spare battery. We also supplement support heals and enfeebling.

Contrary to popular belief it is not a pissing match, like I said I could care less about out hitting any job in this game. As long as I am filling the empty slot to the best of my ability. Now if I had the choice between being that 2nd support role, or main healing with 2 BRD's, bring on the MP gear.

As for a comment posted earlier, there is maybe 1% of the RDM melee population that understands this the other 99% think it needs to be all about whacking a mob. Do we give up anything by doing this type of job, not really, maybe some server respect and forum respect. But that is usually because of the larger shadow 99% casts. I for one have said it before, and I won't stop saying it until those 99% understand. Just because your swinging does not mean you get to stop casting support spells.

So um one more time. What do you think it is we actually do when we go to the front lines. By we, I mean the 1% of us that succeed in the role we have been trying to discuss for going on 4 years now.

[Tek(Selphiie)]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

One time..I was passing through Temple of Uggalepih....and I saw this 75RDM/NIN meleeing a high level magic pot, most likely helping his friend who was a 65RDM getting his testimony early.

Just to have a smartass moment (Because I normally am not a smartass at all, and I have had previous encounters with him so i can say he was an acquaintance) I told him "Dude, don't you know, people on all these different forums shun what you are doing..."

Red Mage: What?

Tek: Yeah... I don't understand, why aren't you in the back hasting or refreshing something?

Red Mage: Oh... don't you know?

Tek: ...huh?

Red Mage: People shun that too...

Tek: -The people's eyebrow- Touche....

Red Mage: So really... nobody wins...

Tek: Well... its still an ongoing debate on RDM melee.

Red Mage: Oh well... they can waste their time... I know when to melee, I know when not to melee. Its not up to them... its up to the situation. I'm smart enough to analyze the situation and know when it is appropriate whether to use my sword or my staves.

Tek: Smart man you are...

Red Mage: Plus... they can argue all they want. Post whatever they want, show me all kinds of parsers, but it all boils down to whether you are smart enough to play the job as versatile as it is. RDM has the capability to melee, so they will, when it is appropriate. RDM has the capability to support, so they will, when it is appropriate.

Tek: If only all Red Mages had your attitude...

Red Mage: Well, we can't all get laid...

By now you probably know I made that whole thing up, but I've been trying to make a point that all this arguing is pretty pointless, no ones going to win.

But, I have no place on the matter so, go right on ahead lol.

[Telera]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I want someone to photoshop that picture to say

"The Runekeeper Debate" on that dead horse.

I need to stick it up some trolls' asses.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

One time..I was passing through Temple of Uggalepih....and I saw this 75RDM/NIN meleeing a high level magic pot, most likely helping his friend who was a 65RDM getting his testimony early.

Just to have a smartass moment (Because I normally am not a smartass at all, and I have had previous encounters with him so i can say he was an acquaintance) I told him "Dude, don't you know, people on all these different forums shun what you are doing..."

Red Mage: What?

Tek: Yeah... I don't understand, why aren't you in the back hasting or refreshing something?

Red Mage: Oh... don't you know?

Tek: ...huh?

Red Mage: People shun that too...

Tek: -The people's eyebrow- Touche....

Red Mage: So really... nobody wins...

Tek: Well... its still an ongoing debate on RDM melee.

Red Mage: Oh well... they can waste their time... I know when to melee, I know when not to melee. Its not up to them... its up to the situation. I'm smart enough to analyze the situation and know when it is appropriate whether to use my sword or my staves.

Tek: Smart man you are...

Red Mage: Plus... they can argue all they want. Post whatever they want, show me all kinds of parsers, but it all boils down to whether you are smart enough to play the job as versatile as it is. RDM has the capability to melee, so they will, when it is appropriate. RDM has the capability to support, so they will, when it is appropriate.

Tek: If only all Red Mages had your attitude...

Red Mage: Well, we can't all get laid...

By now you probably know I made that whole thing up, but I've been trying to make a point that all this arguing is pretty pointless, no ones going to win.

But, I have no place on the matter so, go right on ahead lol.

Just as its beating a dead horse to debate the issue, it's just that a debate. Some people enjoy debating and some people don't. No one is forced to read the thread so there really shouldn't be an issue with allowing some people to prattle back and forth about the issue. As long as everyone plays nice, let them have their fun.

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Im sure the rest of your party did nothing to help that chain did they. Especially that BRD, and 2nd BRD or COR you had. It was all you eh.

Right and you obviously had support healing, so what is your point? I see a few MP pools their someone else has a way to cure I guarantee it.

One Bard with /WHM. The other one was /NIN. And that was almost never used aside from Blink/Stoneskin. Once in a blue moon I see a Divine Seal Curaga II bomb after an AoE or something or some support Paralynas for Dreadful Shriek, but otherwise, yeah mostly just me.

The other "MP pools" you see consisted of melees with MP merits. I don't think they're casting much on 22MP and no spells available.

So it is ok for a backline RDM (or WHM whichever you were) to have a secondary support (which is almost needed at those camps to achieve high chains like that) but it is not ok to have a RDM melee support that same backline mage? Interesting.

The difference is that the RDM melee is not main healing. You have to sacrifice one whole slot dedicated to a main healer to operate as a melee RDM. No ifs, ands, or buts. A Bard is not going to cut it. A Dancer's not going to work either. Probably not even a Paladin, unless he shows up as /WHM or something else equally strange. Maybe a Blue Mage, but those are pretty rare.

In all honesty, I can operate completely independently without any other healers in a party as a caster RDM, as long as someone is giving me at least Evoker's Roll or Mage's Ballad II most of the time. And still maintain chains, too, so long as the melees are balanced out so I'm not MP sponging off of one person who can't keep shadows up because the monsters are on them 24/7. Even at MSJP.

Im not using it as a meter stick, you rambled some stuff about colibri groups, then tossed up a mamool SS. Clearly implying it was better.

Unless you'd care to assert that Nyzul Colibri camps are as challenging as MJSP, then yes, I DO hold that 200+ chain at MJSP is clearly superior to 30+ chain at Nyzul on Colibri.

To extend on this, do you seriously think we melee RDM's go to the frontline just to swing swords? Seriously do you think that? answer here

The obvious answer is yes.

Take a look around at all the horrible melee RDMs you see. The proof is everywhere if you have eyes to look.

You even said it yourself.

there is maybe 1% of the RDM melee population that understands this the other 99% think it needs to be all about whacking a mob.

So um one more time. What do you think it is we actually do when we go to the front lines. By we, I mean the 1% of us that succeed in the role we have been trying to discuss for going on 4 years now.

There are the 99% of RDM melees who suck at it. And then there's the 1% who don't suck but are still delusional about what they actually contribute to a party.


Icemage

[Firewind]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

One time..I was passing through Temple of Uggalepih....and I saw this 75RDM/NIN meleeing a high level magic pot, most likely helping his friend who was a 65RDM getting his testimony early.

Just to have a smartass moment (Because I normally am not a smartass at all, and I have had previous encounters with him so i can say he was an acquaintance) I told him "Dude, don't you know, people on all these different forums shun what you are doing..."

Red Mage: What?

Tek: Yeah... I don't understand, why aren't you in the back hasting or refreshing something?

Red Mage: Oh... don't you know?

Tek: ...huh?

Red Mage: People shun that too...

Tek: -The people's eyebrow- Touche....

Red Mage: So really... nobody wins...

Tek: Well... its still an ongoing debate on RDM melee.

Red Mage: Oh well... they can waste their time... I know when to melee, I know when not to melee. Its not up to them... its up to the situation. I'm smart enough to analyze the situation and know when it is appropriate whether to use my sword or my staves.

Tek: Smart man you are...

Red Mage: Plus... they can argue all they want. Post whatever they want, show me all kinds of parsers, but it all boils down to whether you are smart enough to play the job as versatile as it is. RDM has the capability to melee, so they will, when it is appropriate. RDM has the capability to support, so they will, when it is appropriate.

Tek: If only all Red Mages had your attitude...

Red Mage: Well, we can't all get laid...

By now you probably know I made that whole thing up, but I've been trying to make a point that all this arguing is pretty pointless, no ones going to win.

But, I have no place on the matter so, go right on ahead lol.

This is the most sense I've heard in this thread yet. Can you be my new hero?

[Taskmage]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Red Mage: Well, we can't all get laid...

This is the part that gave you away as complete fiction. You'd think the hat was for nothing.

For my part I accept the possibility in theory that there may be a red mage out there who can perform their spellcasting role in a party post-50 while swinging a sword and perform just as well as a backlining rdm, but I have never seen it. On the other hand I have many times shared a party with another rdm holding an anelace and wearing a scorpion harness who was absolute rubbish and did practically nothing to contribute to the party whether by stabbing things or casting things. I think that's the case for most rdms who try to go melee; they thing they can slap on a couple DDish gear slots and they're good to go.

For my part, when I expect to draw a sword on something >EM (which I don't also expect to be tanking) I gear myself thusly, which I feel is pretty good though clearly not the best possible, and I still have trouble seeing my impact on the battle flow with two or more well-geared dedicated DD jobs in the mix.

In a merit party, which seems to be everyone's favorite proving ground for the concept, I find I'm more useful being able to rest extra mp in windows between refresh and haste cycles and have the situational awareness to claim and hold pops that the bard may not see or be able to reach before the competition. Both would be exceptionally cumbersome if I was engaged and locked on a mob. I'm not saying impossible but it would be quite difficult. If I feel a kill is going too slow, I've got some mp to spare before convert, or I want to make sure a Skoffin or something goes down before it does something inconvenient I can belt out a k or so in nukes and go back to my support role. I recognize that my damage ability is situational not only from party to party but from moment to moment over the course of a party as the situation changes and I feel that maximizing my mp recovery to be able to burst damage more safely and frequently is more valuable than the meager damage over time I would provide swinging joy. There's really just a host of reasons not to take out the sword in a grind party.

Red mage is a hybrid job with a small DD component. There are situations, obviously, where it can be a good idea to contribute to the party in a DD capacity, but you just have to use sense in deciding when you're in one of those situations and how to respond to it.

Sorry if that I restated things that have been said before, but I couldn't resist weighing in on this discussion for the nth time.

[Tek(Selphiie)]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

This is the most sense I've heard in this thread yet. Can you be my new hero?

That depends... will there be rice crispy treats involved... if so... count me in...

Red mage is a hybrid job with a small DD component. There are situations, obviously, where it can be a good idea to contribute to the party in a DD capacity, but you just have to use sense in deciding when you're in one of those situations and how to respond to it.

I'd offer to marry you if i wasn't already involved....






....kidding