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RDM Melee? Whered they go?

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  • Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

    I was almost drawn into a tit for tat reply, but decided to restrain myself into quoting that communicating badly and then acting smug when you're misunderstood is not cleverness.
    lagolakshmi on Guildwork :: Lago Aletheia on Lodestone

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    • Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

      Sleep it
      k, slept
      And if you're the sole puller of the PT (which a RDM may sometimes try to be), you'll quickly come to see like so many other things I've said - there's an art to it. Its not so simple as sleeping one thing and being done with it, lining them up to be killed in succession and keep chains high is the real heart of the matter.

      Comment


      • Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

        No shit? you've done it before then? Ive had to resleep alot of mobs in my career that BRD's pull what is your point? Is it an art yes, do those who are good at it need help, no. So now we are back at square one, if your party is meh, whats the point of trying? If your party is decent but does not have an insurance sleep. Or extra puller who can sleep, why bother. It happens all the time, so why is it now an issue when describing the nature of a hybrid RDM? Does the 4th DD provide any sort of help to the party in this regard...no. So here we are debating over semantics about pulling, pullers, sleeping mobs, and lining them up. I ask again what is your point?

        Lets look at this a little closer shall we.

        You claim RDM hybrid can not provide the damage that a second Bard can bring.
        - I provide a basic example of 3 DD's being buffed by a BRD, the damage differences a BRD provides and show how a RDM can match those demands. (since second BRD is = COR we can easily assume RDM is = COR as well)

        You Claim RDM hybrid will lose DoT when having to help the puller.
        - This is true to an extent, If by help you mean run over gods green earth pulling then yes. If I am able to line up mobs close to camp, I.E. within range of bows and/or spells then No.

        Now for the whole purpose of this line of debate, Inviting a Hybrid RDM to a party when a 2nd BRD or COR is unavailable over a 4th DD.

        4th DD offers
        -damage supplement higher than that of RDM

        What it does not offer.
        - Backline support through refresh, haste, cures, enfeebles
        - Pulling assistance, as they can not sleep the mob (reliably in the case of DRK) it is an ineffective way to go about things.

        What RDM offers

        - Damage Supplement equivelent to that which a 2nd bard provides
        - Backline support with haste, cures, enfeebles, refresh
        - Ability to pull and sleep mobs in close range.

        What it does not offer

        - Direct melee attack buffs
        - slightly less damage if needed to pull outside the 19' spell radius

        So lets see, based on your arguements against RDM and what is needed in a spot like this.

        RDM wins over any other DD to fill this slot. Regardless if it does 15% less damage, it matches that of what the BRD or COR would provide in its place, as well as offers the ability to assist the backline, like a BRD or COR would in its place, as well as offers some assistance to the puller by grabbing close mobs or sleeping the ones the puller has left at camp if they are not ready to die.

        Like I said before, If I had the choice between a second BRD or COR to fill this spot I would take it, but they are not always flocking around in pairs, therefore the next most logical replacement is to use a RDM hybrid as it can cover very well everything these two jobs can do.

        This should be a closed case now, BRD=COR=RDM in that second support role spot, that is the spot we play for, and that is the spot we are best at filling. The case is not against BRD's or COR's it is against inviting a 4th DD that offers nothing outside of damage, in this case RDM>random DD.

        Unless you are incredibly lucky to have 2 BRDS hanging off your balls, then RDM is a perfectly capable replacement for these jobs. Fin.

        sig courtesy tgm
        retired -08

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        • Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

          Why might I ask did you get caught up so much in the SAM stuff?
          Because a good friend of mine was a Samurai and we frequently discussed gear, food, merit, and play styles for his Samurai. I happen to know quite a bit about it.
          I did not include my WS for the sake of keeping things a little more even.
          You created bias highly in your favor then, gearsets are everything to Samurai, possibly more so than they are to Thiefs.

          As I do not know what SAM's Weaponskill in. (I even wrote that)
          Then do some research before posting about damage that they should do.

          We have the same merits. 5STR, Max weapons, 4/4 CRIT
          Good to know, say so next time though.

          I did not include any job specific merits as it has no real bearing on what a BRD supplies.
          Using your numbers:

          SAM WS no Minuet

          WSD = (( 40 + 8 + 89*.75) * 1.5625) * 1.41
          WSD = 252.80*1.41 = 356.44

          SAM WS Minuet

          WSD= ((40+8+89*.75)*1.5625)*1.69 =
          WSD= 303.01*1.69 = 512
          The delta between a Sam WS with Min and without is 512 - 356 (rounded down) = 156

          Using your numbers, with full Overwhelm merits for +19% WS damage, with Min and without:

          356.44 x 1.19 = 424
          512 x 1.19 = 609

          The delta between them is now 185.

          Again:

          The delta without Min and Overwhelm merits: 156
          The delta with Min and Overwhelm merits: 185

          Using a GKatana with a higher damage will yield a larger delta. Better gear will also yield a higher delta. You are seriously mistaken that Overwhelm merits have no bearing on this discussion. Meditate merits also have a very large impact on a Samurai's performance. With the right gear swapped in it has the potential to be almost 2 full free WS every 2:30.

          As far as I know 6 hit is only possible with meditate and jumps so um ya.
          Then you should learn how sTP works.

          sTP JT: +25, Usukane Haramaki, Usukane Sune-Ate, Brutal Earring, Cchain, Rajas Ring, Hachiman Kote.

          Total sTP: 25 + 6 + 7 + 1 + 1 + 5 + 8 = 53sTP.

          Hagun gets 11.5 TP/hit.

          11.5 x 1.53 = 17.59 TP/hit, rounded down to 17 TP to make things easy.

          And I'm feeling free to give a Sam Salvage gear if you are.

          100/17 = 5.88 = 6 hits to reach 100% TP, without Meditate or Jumps. There are other gear combinations to reach that rate of TP growth, but just tossing something together quickly there you go. 5 hit combinations are supposed to be possible, but I don't know much about those.

          4) What weaponskill would you use? Your preachy about the game here and you have to ask questions. Sam is using wither tachi Kasha, or Tachi Gekko, RDM is Using Evis, both at 100% (just like all good TP burners)
          I ask because traditionally Soboro using Samurai went /Rng for spamming Barrage/Sidewinder. From my experience it's unusual to see a non Sam/Rng Soboro user, and I was under the impression that it's frowned on in general due to the weak WS that the Soboro offers. So yes, it is VERY odd to see a Drg/Sam using a Soboro, and since Sam doesn't have native access to Sidewinder I have to ask just what WS is he using?

          5) Because its a rare drop that took me 6 months to get, and 99% of them do not have it.
          And 99% of all Rdm are lacking it, so again, why should you gain an advantage that you deny your hypothetical opponent? The same reasoning applies to you.

          6) Semantics you guys love them BFD, you want to calculate with a hagun be my guest, I imagine that the BRD won't change that to much.
          Actually it is a serious point of discussion, or was, on the Samurai forums awhile ago. Using a Hagun alone will boost damage from a 1.5625 multiplier to a 1.875 multiplier, then there is the extra damage and attack that the weapon gets for being a higher base damage than the Soboro. And yes, the Brd will drastically change that.

          You've just gone from being within a hit or an extra critical hit of damage from matching the Sam to being put into the approaching 85%-90% of the Samurai's damage just with gear changes alone, I haven't even seriously looked at optimizing a Sam build yet, I haven't even looked at making a WS set for a Sam yet. Both of those will blast your weak melee out of the water and you will not have the chance to even compete with a Samurai.

          So yes, you know nothing about melee, and shouldn't be making comparisons between Samurai and Red Mage.
          Last edited by Vyuru; 09-21-2008, 09:17 AM.


          You have the right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be misqouted and then used against you.

          I don't have a big ego, it just has a large mouth.

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          • Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

            FYI I doubt using Soboro without /RNG isn't frowned upon. Assuming Soboro averages two hits per attack round, it's doubling your number of WS yet your base damage won't really be halved since a good deal of it comes from fSTR and WSC.

            Had a party with a Soboro SAM at 75 a couple of weeks back on Trolls. That was some good damage he put up.

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            • Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

              I am not comparing samurai and RDM I am comparing Minuet x2 to RDM which is why I ran off the differences with an without it. If I just did the SAM's damage one would out damage me. But as it stands 3 of them with minuet manage about 50 damage more (80 if you wish to include overwhelm which I do not object to.) Which Based on my DPS is one attack round, which is easily made up depending on the nature of the party.

              The Vbelt argument I will concede, however with the rest of the sams gear he would receive a whoping 1% from it. But still 69-70% haste is pretty decent.

              SAM damage and gear aside, the fact is BRD only increases the damage by an attainable amount. This is the arguement I was making. I am not comparing my damage to a SAM nor to any other top DD (by top DD I mean well geared). We can not catch them and if we did catch them I believe it was callisto that said:

              I would boot that DD for leeching.

              Average geared DD we can catch but that is besides the point.

              You said A RDM can not supplement the boost of damage by a BRD, that is wrong.

              sig courtesy tgm
              retired -08

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              • Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

                Originally posted by MrMageo View Post
                No shit? you've done it before then? Ive had to resleep alot of mobs in my career that BRD's pull what is your point? Is it an art yes, do those who are good at it need help, no. So now we are back at square one, if your party is meh, whats the point of trying? If your party is decent but does not have an insurance sleep. Or extra puller who can sleep, why bother. It happens all the time, so why is it now an issue when describing the nature of a hybrid RDM? Does the 4th DD provide any sort of help to the party in this regard...no. So here we are debating over semantics about pulling, pullers, sleeping mobs, and lining them up. I ask again what is your point?

                My point - which you have completely missed, along with the points of many others - is that you just plain choose to ignore that there are other things that will override and diminish your DPS numbers.

                You post numbers, trying to "prove" what a RDM can do and don't account for things like pulling, sleeping, buffing, curing, haste/refresh cycle.

                The point is that there are so many other factors a RDM has to deal with per minute that it would signifigantly diminish your DPS numbers. You choose to ignore this fact.

                How many times and how many people will it take to point that out to you?

                Lets look at this a little closer shall we.

                You claim RDM hybrid can not provide the damage that a second Bard can bring.
                - I provide a basic example of 3 DD's being buffed by a BRD, the damage differences a BRD provides and show how a RDM can match those demands. (since second BRD is = COR we can easily assume RDM is = COR as well)
                Wrong, wrong, wrong.

                No one invites a RDM with the intention of receiving Attack, Accuracy, Double Attack, Store TP or any stat boosts other than Haste/Refresh/Dispel/Sleep. That is the only ground where you share any ground between BRD and COR. BRD's March's come in two tiers and generally aren't used together unless in specific setups where everyone will benefit, COR doesn't have a haste at all. BRDs and CORs get Light Based sleeps with high accuracy, RDM has Dark Based sleep. Finale is Light, Dark Shot and Dispel are the opposite, all are hardly ever resisted.

                You Claim RDM hybrid will lose DoT when having to help the puller.
                - This is true to an extent, If by help you mean run over gods green earth pulling then yes. If I am able to line up mobs close to camp, I.E. within range of bows and/or spells then No
                If you are a dedicated puller and chaining right, you will never see your sword touch the mob, period. BRDs don't have the time, CORs could weasel it in, but with the extra charge added to QD, they have less reason to. RDM is dead even with BRD in that they're frequently casting, so you will not contribute signifigant damage to the fights.

                Full-time pulling means all melee damage for all three jobs drops completely off the radar.

                Now for the whole purpose of this line of debate, Inviting a Hybrid RDM to a party when a 2nd BRD or COR is unavailable over a 4th DD.

                4th DD offers
                -damage supplement higher than that of RDM

                What it does not offer.
                - Backline support through refresh, haste, cures, enfeebles
                - Pulling assistance, as they can not sleep the mob (reliably in the case of DRK) it is an ineffective way to go about things.

                What RDM offers

                - Damage Supplement equivelent to that which a 2nd bard provides
                - Backline support with haste, cures, enfeebles, refresh
                - Ability to pull and sleep mobs in close range.

                What it does not offer

                - Direct melee attack buffs
                - slightly less damage if needed to pull outside the 19' spell radius
                What are you using as a basis for "Damage Supplement Equivalent to that which a 2nd BRD provides?" Sounds like weasel words to me.

                So lets see, based on your arguements against RDM and what is needed in a spot like this.

                RDM wins over any other DD to fill this slot. Regardless if it does 15% less damage, it matches that of what the BRD or COR would provide in its place, as well as offers the ability to assist the backline, like a BRD or COR would in its place, as well as offers some assistance to the puller by grabbing close mobs or sleeping the ones the puller has left at camp if they are not ready to die.
                OK, so you're telling me the buffs of a 2nd BRD or the Buffs and DD of a COR are not equal to that of a DD RDM?

                Excuse me, I need to drive out a ways so the laughter doesn't disturb my neighbors.

                OK, I'm back.

                You're gonna have me believe that going in there with BD and Joytoy offhand is going to compete with single-wielding Joyeuse to feed my Coffinmaker or Martial gun for Slug Shot or Detonator.

                Please, make me laugh again.

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                • Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

                  ^

                  How is DDx3 + Melee RDM + Healer + Support "situational"? It is the norm for melee RDM - in fact, it's the optimal party build for it.

                  Same goes for DD x 3 + caster RDM + 2xSupport.

                  Before you play the elitism card here, I would think that any RDM with the resources to get the gear necessary to really perform well at melee is going to have enough friends at level 75 to construct the sort of party they really want at least half the time. I know I do - I get DDx3 + RDM + Supportx2 better than half the time.

                  Not to mention the fact that even on the occasions when I end up with DD x 3 + caster RDM + Support + Healer, I end up being a part time puller on RDM, which doesn't affect my numbers in any significant fashion, since we're still looking at 2 pullers versus 1, and thus more consistent chains - and more consistent XP.


                  Icemage

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                  • Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

                    Where did I say they were not equal to a RDM BBQ? hmmm? I don't get where you find this stuff.

                    I said (A) RDM=BRD=COR in the 2nd support slot. RDM > random 4th DD, therefore if A is true then BRD and COR are also > random 4th DD.

                    I do not dispute the fact excessive pulling or casting hurts our DPS, however we should not have to do it excessively in either case. Just as the 2nd BRD or COR should not have to excessively do it. None of these jobs should be responsible for large amounts of casting, or pulling. Helping with it fine. But not in the amount you are trying to pass of as normal.

                    I never need cast more than once every 3 swings, because the backline mage is doing their job. I help with haste, dia, cures but I am only helping, just as a BRD who drops some paralyna or cures would do. I never need to run out of melee range to help pull. I can cast or range pull mobs in range, just like a 2nd BRD or COR would do.

                    Unless I am specifically called into pull my sword never leaves the mobs face, unless a mob pops on top of us or in grasping distance. Unless I am specifically called into heal my cures will sit in my pocket until needed. But if it was my job to do these thing we wouldn't need to have a discussion about this.

                    The thing is you are there to support the party in this sense, does that mean you have to pull and heal and haste etc etc yes, but it is support, it is not being the main person for the task. Get that through your head, it is support.

                    sig courtesy tgm
                    retired -08

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                    • Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

                      Originally posted by Icemage View Post
                      ^

                      How is DDx3 + Melee RDM + Healer + Support "situational"? It is the norm for melee RDM - in fact, it's the optimal party build for it.
                      Dunno if that was for me or Mageo, but I'll bite.

                      You're always have access to that that situation because you merit with your LS exclusively. That scenario never happens in pick-up merit groups. No one goes, "let's get a RDM to melee and a WHM to heal." They just get the RDM to heal and that's why and the WHMs and RDMs QQ about Pink Magery.

                      Same goes for DD x 3 + caster RDM + 2xSupport.
                      For me, this isn't situational, as a BRD or COR, its actually the norm in LS PTs and pick-ups. Especially so on COR, this actually makes me the 4th DD. I don't have to melee at the expense of other gear to do my job. But as I've said, I don't place as high a priority on meritting as others might, because my merits are streamlined to compliment my jobs and BRD, SCH, RNG and COR give me a lot of freedom in how I merit.

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                      • Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

                        If it was directed at me Ice mage I am in the same boat

                        In LS parties we always have 2 BRDs or a BRD and COR and I happily supply the heals to that. Unfortunately I can not always play with my LS, in which case I often see 4DD 1 BRD 1 RDM parties or in more increasing cases 3DD 1BRD 1 other support (BLU,DNC,PLD,RDM) and 1 healer.

                        I personally don't care how the coins fall into place as long as I am getting exp, and I consistently see better returns in the 3/2/1 set up regardless if it is double bard, bard + cor, or Bard + other support class.

                        Which is why I make the case to that format because it really is the better exp set-up. Since this is in the RDM forum I focus on RDM doing the second support role, if it was the Blue Mgae forum it would focus on them. All of the ones I listed are capable of filling that additional slot, imho RDM comes out ahead due to its already greater support role, and the fact that all 4 are basically outputting the same damage to fill in for minuet or cor buffs.

                        sig courtesy tgm
                        retired -08

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                        • Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

                          Originally posted by MrMageo View Post
                          If it was directed at me Ice mage I am in the same boat

                          In LS parties we always have 2 BRDs or a BRD and COR and I happily supply the heals to that. Unfortunately I can not always play with my LS, in which case I often see 4DD 1 BRD 1 RDM parties or in more increasing cases 3DD 1BRD 1 other support (BLU,DNC,PLD,RDM) and 1 healer.

                          I personally don't care how the coins fall into place as long as I am getting exp, and I consistently see better returns in the 3/2/1 set up regardless if it is double bard, bard + cor, or Bard + other support class.

                          Which is why I make the case to that format because it really is the better exp set-up. Since this is in the RDM forum I focus on RDM doing the second support role, if it was the Blue Mgae forum it would focus on them. All of the ones I listed are capable of filling that additional slot, imho RDM comes out ahead due to its already greater support role, and the fact that all 4 are basically outputting the same damage to fill in for minuet or cor buffs.
                          It was directed at you, yes.

                          If you're in a BRDx2 or BRD+COR setup, you're running as a pink mage or you aren't chaining much (exception: Maybe OK on Colibri, depending on the relative quality of your melees... but they're Colibri - you can do pretty much anything at that camp and make it sort of work, like DRGx6).

                          I always see better XP returns on DDx3 + RDM + 2xSupport setups. It's not possible for everyone, but it's by far the most consistent and efficient setup I've seen. I've yet to see any other party setup that can peak above 25K per hour even with optimal gear and playing skills, and DD DD DD BRD COR RDM can do over 30K per hour under good conditions, consistently (I'm betting BBQ can agree with that assessment) assuming there are enough available spawns to support the kill speed.


                          Icemage

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                          • Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

                            I am not denying that fact, (note how I have said multiple times I would rather have a 2 BRD or BRD+COR configuration) all I am saying is RDM hybrid makes a good replacement when those two jobs are not available. Which is very often outside of statics and LS parties.

                            sig courtesy tgm
                            retired -08

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                            • Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

                              Thanks for such an entertaining thread everyone

                              Seems like it's winding down to a close though....

                              I think the OP's question has been answered: 99% died a horrible death, 1% are alive and kicking.
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