Game Balance and User Frustration

[Firewind]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I think the problem there is that the majority of Red Mages are confused about what class they are actually playing. And by that I of course mean 99% of RDM melee players are pants-on-head-retarded and refuse to accept the reality that the iconic image of Red Mage does not match the Red Mage as it has evolved in FFXI, nor will it ever.

Really you hit the nail on the head there Drjones. The majority of RDMs should really be playing another class.

Honestly, a lion's share of the whiners about the RDM class would really be best off playing a Scholar. SCHs are a very versatile class that can switch roles on the fly if they are forced to but they won't be better than a BLM or WHM at nuking or healing respectively.

A lot of the other whiners would probably be better off just rolling a DD class. All abysses parties will welcome a MNK, NIN, THF or DNC. If you want to DD and support then they might be better off playing COR or DNC since they offer great support and offensive abilities. If you want to nuke then BLM, and SCH are there.

The concept behind being a "Jack of All Trades, Master of None" is exactly what it says on the tin. You can do everything well but you will never be the best at it. Yes elitists and idiots will shun you for not being the best at a role but that does not make you the worst either. A smart party leader will realise that a RDM can fill in a large variety of roles and will use RDMs to cover what a party's backline (or even front line) is lacking.

My best cure heals about 600 hp. That's not even a third of my black mage's hp total in abyssea. So if a mob TPs or has a particularly good round and takes out half a melee's HP, it's going to take me at least 4 spells to get that one person back on his feet. If it was an AoE we've got a big problem. It basically feels like trying to main heal in Valkurm without Cure II. If you're fighting anything serious in abyssea, you want a whm, period, and a whm is a strong enough healer than it doesn't really need a rdm to back it up.

I actually feel VERY comfortable with a RDM beside me. Why? Okay I will get this out of the way and say I would be lying if I said I did not like the idea of a safety net for any of my screw ups. I like having a RDM around because a healer RDM backing me up quite simply just makes me more efficient. I can focus on healing and buffing those who need it while a RDM can basically ensure that the alliance's support is running nice and tight.

Basically it's like an engine running with fresh oil. Sure an engine can run fine with old oil for a while but if you want everything toe be perfect you're going to need fresh oil. Melee classes love having Bards around since they boost their performance. I like having a RDM to back me up for the very same reason.

Does this mean I think that a RDM is currently resigned to the "WHM'/BLM's bitch" role right now? Unfortunately yes it seems that way if we look at just Abyssea Parties. Do I want the class like that? No. No class should have that role.

IMHO, RDMs don't need a class changing update or even spells from another class. That needs changing is the playerbase's conceptions towards the class. A lot of people unfortunately see RDMs being relegated to "Bitch Class" as a sort of catharsis from the ToAU era. I know a lot of WHMs who still taunt RDMs about not having the Premier Healer role anymore. Other people see the RDM not having a specialisation as a weakness when it's in fact a major strength of the RDM.

Basically the challenge with getting RDMs more invites lies in the following:

1) Not making the class more powerful or as powerful as a specialist. This is actually the reason why I'm Anti-"Give RDM Cure V"

2) Changing the playerbase's current conception about the class (AKA the "lolDRG Syndrome") while sticking to the above point.

[Neverslip]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Ah... I misunderstood where you were asking the question despite the quote right above your text. Me so sweeeeepy.

[Taskmage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Oh, I know how it works. PDT+Cocoon up, pull mobs, AoE Sleep, Enervation, Sound Blast, Memento Mori, pile on as much dex and MAB as you can, Whisker and 1-shot everything. Pearl anything still on its feet.

[Neverslip]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

How are you gearing for it? Whisker is rather counter-intuitively dependent on DEX rather than INT.

Pretty sure it starts with Physical Damage down gear for the pulling. Then they switch a bunch of sh!t, do a lil dance, make a little love, and mobs get down tonight. I'll ask someone to post on our LS guildwork page a walkthrough or something. I know they were all a lil annoyed I lotted and won my Aias Bonnet (-20 Hp, STR/DEX +8, Acc +5 ... great WS piece for my THF or DNC).

I just googled Charged Whisker setup and there were many hits. Couldn't look at them at work but perused them a bit on my phone. Looks complicated. I'm just gonna ask my LS.

[Taskmage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I think the problem there is that the majority of Red Mages are confused about what class they are actually playing. And by that I of course mean 99% of RDM melee players are pants-on-head-retarded and refuse to accept the reality that the iconic image of Red Mage does not match the Red Mage as it has evolved in FFXI, nor will it ever.

I don't think the rdm community has more pants-on-head retarded people than the rest of the playerbase, it's just that retarded rdms stick out a lot more. I mean if you invited a retarded DD to an old meripo, you'd just have one guy doing less damage. Invite a retarded rdm and ALL the DDs are doing 15% less damage, people are dying right and left to pecking flurry because the cures aren't coming fast enough or because these colibris are using tier III nukes somehow and you're fighting multiple mobs at once because of a <bt> in a certain Dia macro. Rdm is not just easy to fuck up, it is easy to fuck up big time stylee.

With the RDM, one thing it does bring to the table is versatility. It will never be the best at anything unless Squeenix wants to break the class but it can fit neatly into a number of roles. I think the majority of the RDM community really lack the understanding of what a generalist class is. If you want to be the best at something, go and play a specialist. Most RDMs would be best off just switching to SCh of they want to be a mage that can take on multiple roles.

Imo, rdm was best balanced in the CoP era, when a rdm could be invited to take the place of either a blm or a whm, but the specialist was usually preferred. That was back when parties still had dedicated tanks, rested between chains and magic bursted, targeted high-VT/low-IT mobs that are actually worth enfeebling, and a variety of jobs in the party setup was actually a good thing. Iirc the community considered rdm to be underpowered back then, because we never got picked for those good parties in Onzozo where you needed Stona. But I digress.

Adequate at many roles but not preferred at any is, imo, the correct balance of power for rdm. Having a niche in the enfeebling department was nice, too, and it worked out because it was something we could excel at that didn't let us eclipse any other job in traditional party roles. When rdm actually became preferred over whm that was obviously a big screw-up on SE's part and it's a good thing that's no longer the case. What's happened now, though, is that rdm is no longer even adequate at any of the roles it performs.

My best cure heals about 600 hp. That's not even a third of my black mage's hp total in abyssea. So if a mob TPs or has a particularly good round and takes out half a melee's HP, it's going to take me at least 4 spells to get that one person back on his feet. If it was an AoE we've got a big problem. It basically feels like trying to main heal in Valkurm without Cure II. If you're fighting anything serious in abyssea, you want a whm, period, and a whm is a strong enough healer than it doesn't really need a rdm to back it up. Likewise for nuking. A rdm can drop a very decent tier IV and our empyrean set supports that quite well, but damage is secondary to being able to proc yellow, which practically requires a blm. All the proc spells a rdm gets are covered by the blm, so once the blm arrives there's really no point in the rdm.

---------- Post added at 05:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:06 PM ----------

I'm still not having much luck with that, but I think am still pretty weak on gear and the correct atmas. It's frustrating, because I am already lol enough. ;/

How are you gearing for it? Whisker is rather counter-intuitively dependent on DEX rather than INT. Are you prepping the mobs with Sound Blast and Enervation?

[Murphie]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I'm still not having much luck with that, but I think am still pretty weak on gear and the correct atmas. It's frustrating, because I am already lol enough. ;/

[Neverslip]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I bet my blu could do it better once I finish it

Do you hear that?

... it's the wind whispering to you... "Charged Whisker... Burn. Charged Whisker... Burn"

[cidbahamut]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I sometimes take my RDM out to solo farm gold chests for KIs and random stuff because I can do all my own lights.

I've tried to do this a number of times in Konschtat for Dark Rings, but it always ends badly. Partially because my melee set is pretty subpar, but mostly because I simply do not have the patience to farm lights other than Azure.

---------- Post added at 05:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:08 PM ----------

I wasn't aiming this post at anyone on here so the RDMs here should not take this personally, but if you read other forums, the RDM community has probably been the whiniest community I've seen in an MMO. No matter what Squeenix adds to RDMs, it is never enough. I'd love my WHM to be able to solo melee Shinryu while healing everyone solo and nuking for over nine thousand damage too but the fact is this: If the RDM was great at everything, what would be the point in playing any other class?

I think the problem there is that the majority of Red Mages are confused about what class they are actually playing. And by that I of course mean 99% of RDM melee players are pants-on-head-retarded and refuse to accept the reality that the iconic image of Red Mage does not match the Red Mage as it has evolved in FFXI, nor will it ever.

[Firewind]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I can solo farm fine on my WHM though once my DNC is finished I think I'll mostly be on that for full time soloing.

With the RDM, one thing it does bring to the table is versatility. It will never be the best at anything unless Squeenix wants to break the class but it can fit neatly into a number of roles. I think the majority of the RDM community really lack the understanding of what a generalist class is. If you want to be the best at something, go and play a specialist. Most RDMs would be best off just switching to SCh of they want to be a mage that can take on multiple roles.

I wasn't aiming this post at anyone on here so the RDMs here should not take this personally, but if you read other forums, the RDM community has probably been the whiniest community I've seen in an MMO. No matter what Squeenix adds to RDMs, it is never enough. I'd love my WHM to be able to solo melee Shinryu while healing everyone solo and nuking for over nine thousand damage too but the fact is this: If the RDM was great at everything, what would be the point in playing any other class?

[Taskmage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I sometimes take my RDM out to solo farm gold chests for KIs and random stuff because I can do all my own lights.

That's fair. I've thought about doing the same but I bet my blu could do it better once I finish it, so I work on that instead. I've sortof dug my rdm's grave with the other jobs I've chosen to level. Might as well level whm after I top off my pld and put the last nail in it.

I'm not really as angry about this as my fatalism seems to suggest but, well, these things are true.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

That's almost certainly true, but I wouldn't call it "greatly expanded melee at endgame" any more than I would a 75rdm meleeing Serket two years ago.

Well, we got a handful of good gear for it since 75, but then a lot of it was pretty much blown out of the water by everybody else's AF3.

[Cotners]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I sometimes take my RDM out to solo farm gold chests for KIs and random stuff because I can do all my own lights.

[Mhurron]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Ya, I love the active hate for debuffs SE has developed.

[Taskmage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I think I misunderstood you before. You mean that the content that was "endgame" when we were 75 is so much easier now that we're 90 that a rdm could melee it. That's almost certainly true, but I wouldn't call it "greatly expanded melee at endgame" any more than I would a 75rdm meleeing Serket two years ago.

Bringing a rdm for enfeebling has its caveats, too. There are now mobs like Vetehinen, Sisyphus and Itzpapalotl that are in the sweet spot of being strong enough to be worth enfeebling and weak enough to reliably land spells on, but will actively punish you for debuffing them in one way or another.

[Icemage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

In general you're not going to melee most NMs anyhow (unless said NMs are 15+ levels below you). When I say that melee is a more viable option, it's because virtually everything released before the level caps were raised above 75 is now trivial to the point where it's no longer certifiably insane to melee. Of course, you're "probably" better off just nuking it down since RDM actually has some tier 4 nukes with teeth, but the option is there.

Also with the expanded level caps, virtually everything released pre-80+ cap can be solo'd by RDM with melee aside from a small fraction of NMs.

Only the most recently released content for level 80+ is bad to melee, and sometimes not even then (see: Abyssea where no one really seems to care ). I'd rather have a RDM attempting to contribute than a DRK sitting around on auto-attack. It does beg the question of why you want to play RDM at all at endgame, however. Refresh II just isn't enough reason to bring RDMs any more. Enfeebling spells would be a better excuse, but there you're basically just window dressing beyond that, and you only ever need 1.


Icemage