Game Balance and User Frustration

[Malacite]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I think we're all just sick and tired of SE half-assing various aspects of all the jobs. In RDM's case, the melee side.

Only the really retarded players (i.e. most of the official forum goers good LORD some of 'em are total mouth breathers) are clamoring for RDM to become a tier 1 melee job.

The rest of us, would simply like SE to level the playing field and put it's melee capability on par with BLU, which is where it really ought to have been from day 1. Is it really asking so much to make RDM melee a viable (but not optimal) option, instead of a last measure of desperation?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

PLD gets nothing, because PLD is not wanted by the players
RDM gets only mage stat related gear, because RDM is to be a caster
NIN has been the player favorite for so long, they get basically anything they need to be able to solo anything.
The DD jobs aren't any different from one another, so they don't really get anything different. They're all interchangeable, unless you need to proc red, in which case they're all equally useless compared to a WAR.

What's hilarious is how accurate this ended up being to the Manifesto.

And by hilarious I mean sad.

[Ketaru]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Well, that is the kind of the problem, to assume that I'm not on the mage side of things just because I like to talk about melee. Like I said, when I go to events, and indeed a lot of helping out LS members, I do backline RDM most of the time. There are few times when I will show up with weapons and melee gear though and I do appreciate that, for the most part, people trust that I know what I'm doing. Makes for an interesting question for you to answer though. In your view, am I backline RDM because I am backline in events? Or am I a frontline RDM because I go to things in-between meleeing?

I do think there are honest, legitimate answers to any given question about RDM. And that includes questions about what kind of options RDM has when it comes to meleeing. Like earlier in the thread where we were discussing how the job has and hasn't been modernized to meet new standards in FFXI. No grandstanding like meleetards on the Official forum. Just a legitimate list of what I think is relevant gear.

We're currently doing Einherjar because we're anticipating updates to gear that can be gotten from it. On the side, I asked if Iota Ring is still a worthwhile ring. The answer to that question is either "Yes" or "No". What I wasn't expecting was a douchie response from one guy who said, "Level a different job", which is kind of what prompted me to suddenly speak up about this.

I see where you were coming from in your post, but in such ways, I do not consider the far opposite side of the spectrum to be somehow more beneficial to the game. Yes, there is a brutal answer to what the most efficient way to play this game is. The douchie guy I mentioned above is how I see such a player. One of our members asked in LS, "What's good to merit for BST?" The answer to that question is not, and should never have been, "BST is a waste of time. Don't level it." If the most extreme of efficiency advocates had their way, this game would be nothing but Ninjas and mages. I'm sure you've already figured out where I'm coming from, especially given my past rantings about the subject in the Pet Peeves thread. But I truly do blame the pure efficiency advocates for my inability to join groups as a BST years ago.

Which is to say don't get me wrong. I've seen the type of players you describe. I watched a PUG fighting Melo Melo and, among them, was a RDM/WHM with a Sword and full Teal gear trying to hit it. Miraculously, they didn't wipe. They were, however, fighting it for about an hour. Those kinds of people can't be reasoned with. But if somebody were to ever ask me what they could do to make their melee on RDM better, I don't think the right answer would be, "Don't bother."

[cidbahamut]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

You could ask, "What kind of gear can RDM use to cap gear Haste?" And somebody else will read into it: "OMG I WANNA MELEEZ BIG NASTY WYRM AND BE TOTALLY AWESOME LIKE MELEE MAGE SEPHIROTH IN VII!"

See, I would just as soon look at that and go "Oh, someone's putting together a recast build for Utsusemi and stuff". You know, unless there was some context.

But yes, I know what you mean about mentioning RDM melee and the knee jerk reactions. I think it's fueled in part by the participants on both sides being opposite ends of the spectrum in more than just that one area of the game.

There seem to be very few people who have a solid understanding of the game mechanics, know what not to melee on (read: OMGWTFIRDEADAVSTYLEHNMs), and are humble enough to hold a simple and civil conversation about it. More often what you get are scrubs wanting to swing their sword butting heads with more experienced veterans who want to skin them alive for sucking so bad at the job in general(both mage and melee aspects). But then there's always that one guy who's on the melee side who's also a veteran and for the most part knows his stuff, but is also totally stubborn and easily offended by anything other than total acceptance of his love of swords, and it all just degenerates into a clusterfuck from there.

In case that was at all ambiguous, I am not referring to anyone who frequents this forum, as we seem to all be capable of holding civil discussions whenever the topic comes up.

On the Go Away Melee side of the fence I think there is a deep seated fear that the constant yammering for more melee stuff will catch root with the devs and that RDM's mage side will be neglected as SE shifts focus to melee, while the melee side has been so thoroughly malnourished over the years that it simply ends with RDM becoming more of a lolJob than all the others put together. Banished to the mog house for all eternity simply because some people wanted to swing their swords and couldn't take the time to see what Red Mage's real strengths were.

I've spent time on both sides of the issue but I've settled into the mage camp. Nothing wrong with melee, I just don't want to see the job destroyed by the loud people who want to swing their swords in full teal gear.

The Red Mage of FFXI is not the Red Mage of other FF games, and it drives me up a wall how many people refuse to come to terms with it.

[Ketaru]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Well, I got Goading Belt, so now I have capped Haste on RDM. More weird stuff for SCH, Cidbahamut!

Scholar

* Vision
Students in the art of war who employ stratagems to alter the tide of battle along with elemental magic to support their allies and annihilate their foes.

We wish for scholars to further their education in order to become absolute masters of their art, and the latter stages of their research will produce skills comparable to those of a white or black mage whose spells may take time to cast, but compensate with both the bliss and destruction they beget.

* Example Adjustments
o Adding spells which gradually reduce an enemy's TP or status enhancements.
o Adding a spell that can be cast while under the effect of Tabula Rasa.

Uh huh....

Some readers not paying attention to the discussion at hand aside...

Just my 2 cents so take it for what it's worth, but at what point does RDM melee reach the level of "acceptable"? Or any of a RDM's roles really?

...

I don't think anything will allow RDM to melee unless the job is completely redesigned such that meleeing is necessary to accomplish the things the job is invited for. That's a damned tall order.

...


I think for rdm to get accepted as melee, melee would have to be given some new utility other than just damage.

You know, I really don't think RDM needs anything else and, after the recent announcement of the direction they're going to take the job in, we do have other things to look forward. Then again, they could always muck it up again, making some HNMs outright immune to debuffs they don't want people landing on them. Because Paralyze II, comparatively, is oh so overpowered for its ability to make mobs occasionally miss attack rounds or spells compared to a certain spell in the game that makes single target attacks unquestionably miss you. Strange fact: Merciless Matriarch atma and nearly 280 MND and somehow I still can't land Paralyze II on Rani...weird.

Still, I do have a problem with the greater playerbase perception as far as the melee end is concerned. And that is that you can't even really discuss it without a suspicious eye on you. If you discuss gear availability, you include disclaimers like:
- Oh, but I would never do this on a mob that matters.
- Oh, but I just think it's fun to outdamage pickup meleers.
- Oh, but I know it's not the best, but I still enjoy it.
Lest you not be taken seriously on your merits as a player.

You could ask, "What kind of gear can RDM use to cap gear Haste?" And somebody else will read into it: "OMG I WANNA MELEEZ BIG NASTY WYRM AND BE TOTALLY AWESOME LIKE MELEE MAGE SEPHIROTH IN VII!" I guess people have varying degrees on what mobs matter and what mobs don't, but it is an unfortunate kneejerk reaction that some people have that, if you show up as RDM/NIN, you're inevitably going to muck things up as opposed to killing mobs faster. Personally, I do have a murky cut off point I can't specify. Surely, I'd never get close to something like Alfard (despite the hyperbolic sensationalism that would lead some people to think I want to), but I really think people would give somewhat lesser NMs like Bukhis or Ovni far too much credit.

That's really why I can't discuss this on places like Alla or the Official Forums in any great detail because I'll inevitably get associated with people who seriously think the job can match toe to toe with other more dedicated jobs. Simply admitting that I like to do it, and what I can do it against, and how to maximize it if I want to? I'd like to able to talk about those things without having attach an apology to it every time. RDM is my favorite job. It's the job I like to play the most. It's the job I like to get gear for the most. It's the job I like to talk about the most. Surely I can talk about this particular aspect of it without bearing the mark of n00b?

[Elwynn]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Also this...

I think it's all the JA juggling coupled with the job being less than straight forward what with all its weather effects...

What JA juggling?! RDM has a grand total of three abilities.

You want juggling, play SCH PUP or DNC.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

What JA juggling?! RDM has a grand total of three abilities.


You want juggling, play SCH PUP or DNC.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Read what's being posted or get the fuck out of the thread and don't come back.

[Taskmage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

What JA juggling?! RDM has a grand total of three abilities.


You want juggling, play SCH PUP or DNC.

TRY READING THE FUCKING POST!

SCH

Scholar

JESUS I MEAN BASIC READING COMPREHENSION HERE!

[Malacite]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I think it's all the JA juggling coupled with the job being less than straight forward what with all its weather effects and quirky mechanics.

What JA juggling?! RDM has a grand total of three abilities.


You want juggling, play SCH PUP or DNC.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I think it's all the JA juggling coupled with the job being less than straight forward what with all its weather effects and quirky mechanics. The addition of a bunch of weirder and weirder stuff post 75 did not help its appeal. If anything all the new stuff turned me off from the job even more. The macro palettes for playing Scholar properly must be an absolute nightmare to navigate.

[Ketaru]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I'm going to be honest, for all this talk about RDM, I may really wish they would give RDM the gear availability it always had. But I'm really not too worried about the job's future.

Earlier, SCH was brought into the discussion. It's SCH I'm worried about. Now more than ever even. Of course, job-ism has always existed in this game. But I felt the contemptible sting of it last night when somebody who was formerly a SCH said he quit the job because he thought it was useless, even though he openly admits it's fun.

The census shows that SCH hasn't fared well as far as people playing the job is concerned. You may blame it on lack of procs, but the fact is this is not all that different from prior to the Abyssea explosion. There was even a time when it was demonstrated that SCH was possibly a superior nuker to BLM, when it's ability to AoE status cure was the ire of WHMs. And even ignoring those, it is still a mage through and through, at a time when the mage jobs were played like hotcakes. They still are, in fact.

And yet, SCH never seems to have caught on with the playerbase. Why?

[Taskmage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Don't forget mobs like freakin Glavoid where an accidental skillchain can heal back as much life as your weaponskill did damage. Somewhere along the line skillchains went from just not being worth it to something you should actively avoid.

[Ketaru]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Skillchains are a bad thing, yo!

I actually brought my RDM to melee in an EXP party yesterday and there was a SAM using Tachi: Gekko. It wasn't intentional, but I was closing with Evisceration and doing Darkness skillchains which resulted in Ruby lights. Not that Ruby lights are as terrible as people make of it, but somebody got pretty mad at me.

The omission of Red Lotus Blade and Seraph Blade, barring specific subjobs, has always confused me

But I will never forgive them for not letting RDM use Sanguine Blade natively since, of the Sword jobs, RDM is clearly the one that can use it to its best potential and could probably be considered a very solid Weaponskill outside of Abyssea (or even inside if your intent is on building Amber lights, or just plain not having to heal yourself). Good God. Our Empyrean gear is actually very well suited for dealing damage with that weaponskill.

[Taskmage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I don't think anything will allow RDM to melee unless the job is completely redesigned such that meleeing is necessary to accomplish the things the job is invited for. That's a damned tall order.

I think for rdm to get accepted as melee, melee would have to be given some new utility other than just damage. Sword procs would have been one way to do it, but it wasn't in the cards since rdm doesn't natively get RLB or Seraph Blade. (What's up with that btw? The one sword user with magic attack bonus doesn't get access to the good magical sword WSes?) A few years ago I would have said to give rdm abilities that allow them to debuff with melee, but that slice of design pie got eaten by dnc. Death Blossom was an awesome idea imo, opening for light and darkness skillchains and prepping the mob to take full damage from the chain and any MBs, but it was a bit late in coming considering tactical skillchains had long been abandoned.

I dunno. I think the right balance for rdm is somewhere in the middle of dnc, blu and sch, but it would take a brilliant design to get it into that position without screwing other jobs or overpowering the job.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Is SE that paranoid of melee RDM suddenly overtaking the game and everyone just does 18 RDM in an alliance?

To be fair, this has been a fantasy of mine ever since I figured out just how amazing Chainspell is.

I don't think anything will allow RDM to melee unless the job is completely redesigned such that meleeing is necessary to accomplish the things the job is invited for. That's a damned tall order.

But I'm not a RDM. I don't have years of insight on endgame tendencies and the job's inner workings.

Nah, you're pretty spot on.