The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

[Mhurron]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

please. please, no, not even SE can't be that stupid.


They simply cannot have meant for it to be like that. Right? Right?

It would be a far better game environment if they had been right.

[Feba]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

SE has stated that they didn't expect linkshells to turn into a guild system at all. They honestly expected them to just be used as a disposable communications device instead of the centerpiece of any sort of long-term social structures.

please. please, no, not even SE can't be that stupid.


They simply cannot have meant for it to be like that. Right? Right?

[Pteryx]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

One problem I have is actually a long-standing, but now quieter criticism of the game.

Lack of real guild structure.

SE decided that it would be best to let the players regulate thier linkshells as they saw fit. Which is to say, SE trusted players too much. I think each time a developer makes thier first online game, they imagine us to be perfect little angels. Well, we're not, and the complete absense of an established guild structure makes things a lot more political than they have to be. That's not to say an established system couldn't be abused - it totally can - but if things like point systems were done in-game instead of externally, there's a lot less room for abuse. Bad/corrupt leaders would be spotted easier.

IIRC, SE has stated that they didn't expect linkshells to turn into a guild system at all. They honestly expected them to just be used as a disposable communications device instead of the centerpiece of any sort of long-term social structures. Which says to me that they did worse than just think we'd be angels -- human nature never crossed their minds at all.

I think there's room for both casual systems like the linkshell (which could stand some polishing to reflect the long-term aspect) and more rigid structures like you propose. A linkshell-like system would be helpful because you can just pick it up and go, while a guild-like system would have more benefits at the cost of all kinds of annoying bureaucratic hoops. For endgame purposes and other Serious Business, the latter would likely be worth it, but why force that onto the average casual shell?

Another issue is that SE doesn't really update the older content that much. OK, so we can farm diorites from Aura Statues near the Nexus, there's a rage timer and NMs can build resistances over time. Still, this doesn't prevent us from using the same tactics over and over again.

SE said it themselves several times - they'd like to encourage different party setups and strategies. This works for the "small party" concept they have, but not terribly much for meritpo or endgame. Things need to be shaken up a little here.

Since the kings are now such familiar territory and have become such simple fights, I think its time they get a bit tougher with a bit more variety in thier tactics or even tactics that might vary by thier appearance.

Are you sure they meant that with respect to endgame content? I thought they were only talking about XP -- giving the grind more variety to make it less of, well, a grind. However, that's not likely to happen until they get a better understanding of how to balance risk/reward and effort/reward.

As someone who favors the newer jobs in the game, another that stands out to me is the failure to really include the ToA/WotG jobs in the reward scheme in RoZ/CoP endgame content. Really, CoP busts your balls, I want a little more to choose from than some earrings and neck pieces. BLU got BOTH sea sets and PUP and COR got jackshit. Its clear BLU was way ahead on the drawing board than the other two.

All the same, all ToA and WotG jobs should get a shot at AF+1 sets, too. Same goes for relics, which I'm a little more understanding about SE holding back on. Given how contemporary ToA/WotG AF is in contrast to RoZ AF, it probably is somewhat difficult to reinvent these sets, and I'll also concede that Relic for WotG jobs is probably premature since other endgame sets aren't really there outside of the standard crafted and Assault gear choices

But lets look at the facts:

PUP, DNC and SCH get no abjuration gear - COR and BLU had it from day one on ToA
WotG/ToA jobs get no AF+1, just Limbus accessories and other sea accesories.
WotG/ToA jobs don't have Relic armor.
PUP, COR and BLU do have Relic weapons, but we have no idea what to do with them yet.
SCH and DNC get nothing from Salvage.
Only BLU, PUP and COR have incentive to camp HNM, and not very compelling ones.

I gripe about this only because you can't expect everyone to have a dozen jobs at 75. Two or three jobs at 75 is pretty common now, anything beyond that is going into extreme cases. I'm sitting at three with #s 4, 5 and 6 soon to follow. I think I'm going to stop there, I don't know if I can stomach a seventh.

Anyway, there will be newer players wanting to do this old content and they may end up favoring ToA/WotG jobs. There should be something there for them in this content.

Cutting out your attack on endgame players, I can see your point, particularly with AF+1 (which are, as the name implies, direct upgrades) and Salvage gear (which cover broad categories of jobs and used to cover every job in the game between them). Relic armor does, indeed, seem trickier to do, particularly finding a method of delivery for the ToAU ones since they've painted themselves into a corner that way storywise; Limbus had odd jobs out anyway (and probably could stand some attention in general due to this); and as for the rest, I can't say I have any insights.

Finally - and this is just because it really annoys me for some reason - those fucking /BRD and Barspell bots in campaign. Seriously, nerf the recast on BRD and WHM self buffs when Allied tags are applied or make it so you can only get so much EXP from Campaign. No one should be able to level up thier character by singing and not doing shit on the battlefield nor sould anyone get credit for these buffs unless they're hitting other active players. I've already made it a point to introduce Muu Buxu the Elusive to these guys a few times.

The trouble with doing that for BRD is that, as you should know, BRD buffs are almost exclusively self-targetted. The nerf you suggest would screw them over in normal, legitimate combat in Campaign. I can see making sure that you don't get credit for AoE buffs that only hit yourself, though.

And, er, there already are caps on the XP you can get from Campaign.


On the subject of storage, my own thought is this: If they want to give us more Mog House space but can't because of PS2 limitations as they say, there's an indirect way they could do it: make a seperate, home-MH-only storage space that can hold only furniiture, and allows us to deploy it in our house with the same benefits as if it were deployed from our safe. That not only frees up space in our Mog Safe, but it encourages players to make use of the Storage function (and to get "fun" furniture).

Beyond that, why is all non-event armor storage by set? For the rare/ex pieces especially, this is awkward and frustrating. Thus, I'd love to see individual rare/ex storage too -- though unlike Dranzia, I've noticed that their hard limit for a displayable storage area is 80 (not that 80 rare/ex-only slots wouldn't be awesome, mind you). For that matter, I'd love to have storage just for elemental staves; they get in the way on low jobs and non-mage jobs.

The one also sort of ties in with jobs: what's the big deal on the lack of hybrid gear S-E? Oh, and the TOTAL ABSENCE of hybrid foods (Ambrosia obviously doesn't count: it's an uber-food). Hybrid jobs can't work if you don't give them hybrid gear.

Total agreement here, especially on the foods. Just what is a BLU supposed to eat besides souls anyway? Some sweet 'n sour dhalmel for Attack plus MP would be nice. They may be starting to realize the problem, though, given the recent release of Rabbit Pie.

Another food issue that comes to mind is the lack of variety in mage foods. You have INT, you have MND, you have MP, and you have hMP. Where's the elemental MAB food? Or the MAcc food? Or heck, the hybrid MDB/Def and MDB/Eva food for tanking spell-happy mobs, or at least the elemental resist food?

Speaking of Eva, we could stand to have more Eva food too. Like, something significant that's actually stackable. -- Pteryx

[KingOfZeal]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

I know I can't be the only person who would prefer to see a guild system like it was shown in .hack//roots? A decent, multi-level room which can be furnished to great customizable details, ultimately depending on just how "rich" the guild is.

I think the idea mentioned earlier that after the shell gets to a certain size, MH's are more extensions to the shell's main gathering area. If something like this were actually put in, a linkshell bank would be easy to put in, comparatively.

Now, granted The World (R:2 in this case) is probably expanded and each guild has it's own building separate of each other, which would provide some of a problem in Vana'diel (perhaps, you could add another option when exiting to a specific area from your MH, which would send you to the gathering area of the shell that is currently equipped, and could only exit back into your room, much like the Chocobo Circuit works), but it's something that would be very nice to see.

[Asmodai]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

The Crafting system is a whole lot better than guildwars! No matter what people say there are no craft points no special sub titles for crafting.

As Far as EvE is concerned, there is alot more for lower lvl players to do In EvE. I bought the 2007 expansion and I don't think I have even touhced them yet. Still trying to lvl up to where I can hang out with the vets but it looks like its going to be a while. I haven't played enough except to just lvl.

I like Tabula Rasa's Monster attack on the city walls and everyone in the city runs out to fend the monsters off or you loose control of the city till a group comes to take it back. thats fun! alas I only played tabula rasa for a couple months. it totally lacked content. The idea was awesome for a short time. Now im here taking a break from EVE.

[Saren]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

I love the idea of being able to send things from your MH, for lazyness reasons. I really begrudge my muling time.


Linkshells:

So glad people mentioned this because it needs such an overhaul. More facilities, more features, more security. Even just the ability to administrate offline members would be a nice start.

I love the idea of having a group area, a bank system and a group armor and item store. Obviously the armour would have to be non rare/ex only and regulated. Make any donated armour non sellable/droppable/auctionable/tradable and make sure that the person who donated the armor can retrieve it at any time and get it back automatically if the ls dissolves or someone tries to server hop etc. I don't think anyone was suggesting a sort of group lotting of a drop.

If you are going to give real facilities though there need to be restrictions on pearl trading. At the moment if one of the sacs goes mad and invites hundreds of random people you can break the shell, spend 7k for a new one and it's no huge deal. If you have real features and shared facilities restarting would be more of a problem.


My next two are both from a practical side of things. Considering what Omg just said I don't think everyone will agree but honestly, the game has been going for a long time now, there are a lot of people with multi level 75 jobs, why not just go with it and make using multiple level 75 jobs less of a pain in the ass. You are not going to change people wanting more than one job at high level particularly given how endgame seems to work and how people go about CoP, merits etc.


Storage:

It would be nice if more armor was storable with NPCs or perhaps packagable in the same way that arrows are quiverable (turn a whole set of armor into a single slot package). Muling for half an hour to change your jobs over is not fun and not everyone wants to level the jobs that require the most compatible gear to whatever they consider their main. Anything that cuts down on muling time can only be a good thing.


Merits:

Someone is going to accuse me of dumbing down but meh. Leave job specific merits exactly as they are but make the non job specific merits internally swappable within each catagory (obviously limiting it so a whm couldn't have sword merits or something daft like that), possibly for a fee or with a mini quest or something. Something like this would let rdms that tank once in a while to swap over enmity merits for a fight and definitely helps people with either multiple mages or multiple DDs at 75 who are very cramped in the skill merits (I'm only on my second job and already getting a bit cramped magic skill wise). It's not like capping out your non job specific merits isn't many hours of work.

[Telera]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Utterly against the idea of "LS storage".

LS items are always potential sources of endless drama; no gear of any sort should ever belong to the LS. You have the points to lot Kirin's Osode? And wins? Yours to keep or sell, or do whatever you like.

I agree here, if you win it, it's yours.

And I can see drama-potential with someone switching servers whilst wearing a piece of the 'linkshell's' armor.

But having storage for the LS for less drama-inducing things would be good. My kinship on LotRO uses the storage chests in the Kinship House (btw, Linkshell house would be an awesome idea for XI) to put in things we don't personally need, but others in the kin might. They're essentially free-for-all. Legendary trait books/pages. Crit items for crafting. Gear/drops/etc. Even some things that could be pawned off for 20+ Gold get stuck in there. We're a very help-oriented group. And we've not had any problems or backlash yet. But that's because there is no way to 'lend' gear on LotR, either. It's either BoA or BoE.

It'd be nice to be able to have a LS storage for people to put in crafting items or something perhaps. But probably not such a good idea for expensive-ass pieces of gear. Because of the fact that it isn't bound on XI, save for rare/ex things...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

No matter how much SE could expand storage, there are always going to be players who can't handle the space they have. I'm a RNG and a COR - just how much excess do you think I have laying around in that MH?

A lot.

But then, I've also become accustomed to managing the space I have wisely. I don't level excess jobs with gear that doesn't meet the needs of my current one - with very few exceptions.

I'll use Foobar as an example - the jobs are RDM, SCH and BST.

All accessories from RDM and SCH pretty much overlap, leaving me with only body armor to change out. BST isn't compatible so much, its completely different armor, but since SCH and RDM aren't too different in terms of needs - similar to my gear needs on RNG and COR - I end up not using so much space.

For Kitten, what worked for RNG and COR, about half of that works for DNC and BLU, so with just a few subtle differences in needs, I may choose to level those as well. DNC really just gives me an excuse to round out my direct melee gear for COR, anyway, whereas my focus has almost exclusively been on ranged accuracy and attack.

Anyway, that's just how I approach the game. The downside to my approach is while having two characters that I focus so specifically, I have to repeat a lot of content, but then, I take this negative and turn it in a positive direction for the benefit of my friends having somone on missions that has been there before and also isn't wasting a space in PT.

I really love how you specify "RDM Melee," and then just plainly "SMN" in your list of issues talked about "far too often." Really says something, doesn't it?

If I didn't state it from the start, we all know where this topic would have ended up - beating a dead horse. Those discussions are things I'm tired of hearing about and if we're going to complain about something, lets at least do it while getting some new perspective instead of griping about the same old shit.

We know the game design inevitably influences social behavior in this game. SE is limited in controlling how we react to things, but with the right design choices you can lessen the problem.

Personally, I liked what SE started with Assault and Campaign because it lets the system manage you being rewarded rather letting players manage it entirely.

Just as an example, I think we more or less know that when that ToA/WotG relic comes out that players that don't even play those jobs seriously will go after them just to have a shiny instead of letting it go to players that will benefit from it. Even with the point systems we have, there will be drama inevitably in some linkshell because greed got ahead of need.

"Need before greed" is a hard-sell to players in FFXI and, really, its the only MMORPG I've played where the concept wasn't welcome from level 10 on up. I think the multi-job structure we're allowed to persue and this game being more Japanese-centric has a fair bit to do with that.

Like in Everquest, it was always need before greed. Didn't matter if it could be sold or not, it went to the people that could equip it - only they were allowed to lot. It was a pretty amazing and mature honor system, but then this was a game played almost entirely by US and EU players.

Another difference - players always sought out and go thier own replacements. No fuss, we just did it, we recognized the wide timezone gap and respected the time of others. I guess you could partly attribute this to the "refresher" jobs being a bit more combat friendly and mobs weren't so rigidly designed that it got in the way of players' melee interests. I was an enchanter, which was considered rare there, but not so much that I couldn't find someone to replace me or that we didn't have enough jobs that could root or be a manabattery.

But here's the other dimension of that - EQ at that time wasn't a franchise. WoW and FFXI are franchised MMOs and that means one other distinct difference.

Non-franchised MMOs don't really attract many kids. You get adults. Sure, they're not all perfectly functional human beings, but they're also much less self-absorbed. If I could find a linkshell that said "ages 21-35 or turned away" I'd join it in a heartbeat because I'd be more likely to find people I'm looking for.

I knew a guy who led one of WoWs biggest east coast guilds, he had a strict "21 and up" policy, if he found out you lied about your age, he kicked you without question. He told me that prior to WoW, affirming my EQ experience, there was much less drama in western MMOs and that he preferred things that way and preferred the company of adults, so he controlled the rules to prohibit kids. He only let kids in if they diplayed that "wise beyond thier years" quality and played like an adult. But mostly, he just turned them away.

[Feba]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

This is a good thing.

Sometimes, but not all the time.

LS items are always potential sources of endless drama; no gear of any sort should ever belong to the LS.

Not really. Look at EVE online, as an example-- they have corporation storage systems, but the access can be restricted and controlled very much so. For example, I joined a corporation at one point that had a fairly large stockpile of weapons and ship modules-- I was able to see what was contained inside storage, and I was able to put my own items in (so that others could use them; such as for crafting), but I wasn't able to take anything out. If I wanted to do that, I had to ask someone who did have permissions.

It sounds like a good opportunity for drama, but really it's not. Of course, EVE online approves of things like scamming (as long as you're not taking advantage of the game to do it) and stealing, but there's no reason such a system would lead to huge problems in FFXI as long as it's implemented correctly, and people aren't idiots about it.

What kind of "guild support" other than "guild storage" and "meeting place" do people want from S-E?

Well, I haven't seen anyone actually asking for it, but there are ways to get people more involved in guilds and such. One thing which is a common theme is having to have many players contribute money/EXP to a group 'fund' of some kind, and the guild benefitting when they reach a goal. For example, in some MMOs I've played, your guild 'levels up' with your characters, and you have to have your guild at a certain level to have more than x amount of players, and so on. This probably wouldn't be the greatest for FFXI, since you can belong to multiple groups, and can switch between them at the drop of a hat, but similar systems could be done.

For example, give people who are in the same LS some kind of benefit while in a party; for example, if I'm a PLD, my LS mates would have a small enmity- bonus. If I were a WHM, I might have a small % healing bonus on LS mates. This could be made to start out at nothing or extremely little, and grow to a slight but noticeable benefit; to keep people from just buying an LS and equipping it before any random event. Your linkpearl/sack/shell could earn EXP *coughmateriacough* to enhance this effect, so that your efficiency with your LS mates grows as your bonds (in principle, at least) do.

Of course, that's just one of many roads SE could take with it. They could also have a gil fund that buys a bigger LS house when it fills up (that way your mog house could just become a bedroom inside your LS house, which is shared for other things), or something I couldn't imagine. There's a lot of possibilities for it.
______________________________

Just because it'd be a pain to program a correct solution,

Actually, would it? Would it be that hard to just despawn all the dynamis mobs 5-10 minutes (however long things sit in the loot window) and deactivate the ???s before kicking people out?

As I recall, dynamis mobs despawn or stop fighting about 30-60 seconds before time is up anyway, it wouldn't be TOO big of a change.

[Tokagawa]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Rare/Ex only storage.

PLEASE

Another thing:

Who had the BRIGHT idea to make it so when you equipt items they are STILL TAKING UP INVENTORY SPACE are you serious? God its SOOOOOO annoying

[DakAttack]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

They could track "DKP" within the game, like merit points. There would have to be a lot of reworking and restructuring of the claim system, but you could potentially bid on everything that has dropped from the HNMs that you or your linkshell has killed in some central office. I think it would require allegiance to some other faction whose existence isn't threatened by drama.

[Dranzia]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Although it's not necessarily new or even possible:

Rare/Ex only storage.

(After "new" storage update quest)
Moogle >> Master! I've just returned from the moogle's hometown, and I brought you a present! Here's your new "Super Safe!"
Moogle >> This Safe can only be used to store items that are yours alone, Kupo! I hope you enjoy it!

You now have access to 200 empty storage slots for r/x items.



<Yes, please.>

[Yellow Mage]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

This thread makes sense. You got Thanked for basically this bulk part of the OP:

Another issue is that SE doesn't really update the older content that much. OK, so we can farm diorites from Aura Statues near the Nexus, there's a rage timer and NMs can build resistances over time. Still, this doesn't prevent us from using the same tactics over and over again.

SE said it themselves several times - they'd like to encourage different party setups and strategies. This works for the "small party" concept they have, but not terribly much for meritpo or endgame. Things need to be shaken up a little here.

Since the kings are now such familiar territory and have become such simple fights, I think its time they get a bit tougher with a bit more variety in thier tactics or even tactics that might vary by thier appearance.

As someone who favors the newer jobs in the game, another that stands out to me is the failure to really include the ToA/WotG jobs in the reward scheme in RoZ/CoP endgame content. Really, CoP busts your balls, I want a little more to choose from than some earrings and neck pieces. BLU got BOTH sea sets and PUP and COR got jackshit. Its clear BLU was way ahead on the drawing board than the other two.

All the same, all ToA and WotG jobs should get a shot at AF+1 sets, too. Same goes for relics, which I'm a little more understanding about SE holding back on. Given how contemporary ToA/WotG AF is in contrast to RoZ AF, it probably is somewhat difficult to reinvent these sets, and I'll also concede that Relic for WotG jobs is probably premature since other endgame sets aren't really there outside of the standard crafted and Assault gear choices

But lets look at the facts:

PUP, DNC and SCH get no abjuration gear - COR and BLU had it from day one on ToA
WotG/ToA jobs get no AF+1, just Limbus accessories and other sea accesories.
WotG/ToA jobs don't have Relic armor.
PUP, COR and BLU do have Relic weapons, but we have no idea what to do with them yet.
SCH and DNC get nothing from Salvage.
Only BLU, PUP and COR have incentive to camp HNM, and not very compelling ones.

I gripe about this only because you can't expect everyone to have a dozen jobs at 75. Two or three jobs at 75 is pretty common now, anything beyond that is going into extreme cases. I'm sitting at three with #s 4, 5 and 6 soon to follow. I think I'm going to stop there, I don't know if I can stomach a seventh.

Anyway, there will be newer players wanting to do this old content and they may end up favoring ToA/WotG jobs. There should be something there for them in this content.

People can spout off about how people should be compelled to camp these things out of being "part of the team," but lets just call bullshit on that - those people are addicts and I'm blowing three hours of valuble time camping something we might not claim on or even get a drop from (hi2u Defending Ring). There should be more incentives for more jobs from these ventures to keep it interesting for everyone.

My sentiments exactly. Although . . .

meaning RDM Melee/SMN/

I really love how you specify "RDM Melee," and then just plainly "SMN" in your list of issues talked about "far too often." Really says something, doesn't it?

But, I digress. Back on topic . . .

Um, what do I feel is important that I haven't complained about recently? Oh, yeah, magic jobs.

You know the ratio of jobs that use MP to those that don't? Keep in mind this also includes Paladin and Dark Knight in the MP group: 8:12. Look, I'm a Tarutaru, and I consider MP a very important thing to have. So why, then, do I have less than half of the jobs in the game to work with? White Mage, Black Mage, Red Mage, Paladin, Dark Knight, Summoner, Blue Mage, and Scholar. Counting Summoner as part of RoZ, that's only one token MP job per expansion containing new jobs. Looking at expansions alone, that's Samurai, Ninja, Dragoon, Corsair, Puppetmaster (which, by looking at their gearsets, I suspect was actually intended to be an MP using job . . . why couldn't they have just made the puppets magically controlled instead of "wirelessly?" Afraid of another Summoner?), and Dancer. That number alone equals the total number of Mages there are, excluding PLD and DRK.

The one also sort of ties in with jobs: what's the big deal on the lack of hybrid gear S-E? Oh, and the TOTAL ABSENCE of hybrid foods (Ambrosia obviously doesn't count: it's an uber-food). Hybrid jobs can't work if you don't give them hybrid gear. To get any more specific than that, though, might anger the OP. Let's just end at I share his anger in BLU getting both Homam AND Nashira (or, rather, BLU in general, but no more specifics, as I said).

Elemental Staves being listed as "All jobs," as opposed to "MNK/WHM/BLM/SMN/SCH." And, for that matter, their very presence in end-game indicates that resistance rates are either far too high, or far too low, depending on the situation.

And, that's all for now. Probably crossed a line I shouldn't have, but that's for the OP to bite my head off and Straw Man me over.
______________________________

This is a good thing.

Really, it all depends. If S-E had a way of differentiating signal to noise, this is a potentially bad thing.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Utterly against the idea of "LS storage".

LS items are always potential sources of endless drama; no gear of any sort should ever belong to the LS. You have the points to lot Kirin's Osode? And wins? Yours to keep or sell, or do whatever you like. Novio isn't "too valuable"; have a minimum threshold so only the most dedicated and available BLMs have a chance at lotting--and the winner get a full point wipe.

I'd grudgingly say "Yes" to LS bank, since it lets members monitor the amount of money coming in and going out, and it's too much of a pain to make leaders distribute Gil after items sold every week.

* * *

What kind of "guild support" other than "guild storage" and "meeting place" do people want from S-E? I've never played another MMO, so is rather fuzzy on the concept. All I can think of is it'd be nice to have a usable "Linkshell Community" site instead of the slow, feature poor, badly designed one we have now. Even then, a phpBB forum would likely still give a LS better control over data retention, access policy, customizations, etc.

* * *

Dynamis loot disappears upon exit. Why?! Loosing a relic armor because AFK people who fell asleep or whatever is just stupid. -_-#

Just because it'd be a pain to program a correct solution, doesn't mean it can be ignored for years and years and years...

[Mhurron]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

SE's failure to listen to the playerbase

This is a good thing.

Even a new set of GMs, that like patrol areas of high drama in units of 4 and everyone can see them o_O;

Weren't they supposed to make themselves visible more often?