Common mobs with odd properties

[Kafeen]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

I am wondering where this theory originated.

Is it from Pankertion? The mobs you taim in Pankertion aren't the same as the mobs in the field. You can go an tame some level 80+ mob, there'll be very little difference between that and some level 1 mob, you don't get that level mob to fight with. Also as I remember it, none of the Pankretion mobs have sub jobs by default, no WAR/WARs, no BLM/BLMs.

The plates you get from there won't neccisarily be generated on the fly based on what abilities that mob, just selected from a list of available possibities the same way as item drops are.

[Callisto]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

I can't remember if non-NM pots cast AM, I'm pretty sure I've just seen T4 and -aga T3.

[Ziero]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Yes, 99% of mobs that aren't some sort of humanoid, beastman, or otherwise intelligent being clearly capable of taking on jobs are WAR/WAR. Raptors are WARs, I even tracked their DA rate once because I always perceived them as having much higher DA rate than players, but it's the same ol' 10%.
Basically, when in doubt, or when you can tell the mob DAs and doesn't exhibit traits from other jobs, just assume it's a WAR/WAR mob.

Hmmm, I guess I'll take that as a mix of good news and bad...
(long story short, I'm trying to write up a Morpher job concept and one of the ideas was that your traits would depend on the mob you used, was hoping the job classes were more varied then they seem to be)

[Armando]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

It seems there's a lower tier of worms in Uleguerand against which I could probably survive plenty of nukes (Lv.58-62) yet are still high enough to check as EPs, so I could determine their level by killing them and then try running the numbers and seeing under what conditions the formulas match up to their stats. But first and foremost, I'll check Old World/Zilaart mobs.

Regarding Pots: That's a good one. Do you know if they cast Ancient Magic?

Would it be safe to say that War is the predominant Job choice for mobs? And are there any Thf mobs? I'm not sure if Raptors have Triple Attack or that they're just attacking REALLY fast.

Yes, 99% of mobs that aren't some sort of humanoid, beastman, or otherwise intelligent being clearly capable of taking on jobs are WAR/WAR. Raptors are WARs, I even tracked their DA rate once because I always perceived them as having much higher DA rate than players, but it's the same ol' 10%.

Basically, when in doubt, or when you can tell the mob DAs and doesn't exhibit traits from other jobs, just assume it's a WAR/WAR mob.

Also, I didn't mean to ignore this.

I guess there's no evidence about it, but I've always wondered about latents on mobs like mandragoras.

For some reason their eva always seems to increase a lot when there are at around 1/4 - 1/5 or HP. It could be just a coincidence, but it happens too often to ignore. Although I don't remember their evasion check changing when that happens either.

But I think it's all in your head.

[Ziero]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Armando, I got another request for you to look at lol...
Pots have been bothering me for awhile, they act like obvious BLMs(possibly BLM/WAR, I want to say I've seen them DA), but drop RDM tests. I've been wondering that for a while.
I'm trying to think of other non-casters that have MP as well...I need to try and Aspir more crap in Nyzul, you get access to alot of mob types there(which may make it an awesome place for that Pankration jazz, time permitting. >.>)

iirc A Drk Test can be found on War and Blm Skeles. I don't think that dropping a Test is indicitive of the job the mobs posses.

[hongman]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Pots definately do DA, I was tanking these at the weekend /NIN.

[Callisto]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Armando, I got another request for you to look at lol...

Pots have been bothering me for awhile, they act like obvious BLMs(possibly BLM/WAR, I want to say I've seen them DA), but drop RDM tests. I've been wondering that for a while.

I'm trying to think of other non-casters that have MP as well...I need to try and Aspir more crap in Nyzul, you get access to alot of mob types there(which may make it an awesome place for that Pankration jazz, time permitting. >.>)

[Ziero]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

NMs aren't the only ones who have strange abilities like that. Fight the crawlers in Mount Zhayolm on fireday.

Again, a mob can still have a job/job combo while possessing a unique race specific trait (such as the crawlers with Auto-regain). This is not something new and was stated before.

You're saying mobs have a main job and a sub job just like players do but NMs work differently. How can you seriously suggest that mobs follow the rules of players more closely than NMs follow the rule of mobs and then say mobs can be WAR/WAR or BLM/BLM. Last time I checked that wasn't possible for players.
You say mobs have jobs to allow them access to spells, but they don't use all spells, and as you've mentioned sometimes mobs will cast the same debuffs when they're useless. Mobs aren't given a job to allow them access to spells, they're simply given the spells that they use. In the case of worms this is earth based spells. In the case of other black mage type mobs this is limited to higher level spells so they don't cast lower tiered spells repeatedly. The AI on FF isn't very advanced, its kept as simple as possible since the servers have so much work to do.

NMs DO work differently from everything else in this game. That's *why* they're NMs. They have unique stats, abilities and traits that no other mobs have. There are normal mobs who can 2 hour once but only NMs can *spam* a 2 hour ability. NMs are built to follow their own rule set and ignore that of *every* other system in game.

And the job/job combos help deteremine a mobs *base stat growth and traits*. Following the same system as players. It allows an easy start to building a monster as each one doesn't need it's own unique stat growth system. They're given the basics that PCs use and then added upon. It's the reason why a War/War, who gains stat growth accoriding to how PCs would gain stats if they took a Main job War and added a Sub job war's stats together, hit so hard and why Pld/Pld mobs take so little dmg.

And the fact that a normal crab can have MP and never use a spell proves that there are some mobs with spell casting jobs who don't have any spells. Meaning SE can add whatever spells, if any at all, they wish to a mob. Just like in Pankration, a Mob will not cast spells until you set it to cast spells. And it is easy to give a mob XX spell without adding YY spell.

I'm not disputing that mobs get some traites that players have access to through jobs, such as defence bonus on crabs, but these abilities or traits are not linked to specific job in the same way they are for players. The config scripts or whatever SE are using to setup the abilities for mobs simply allow them to add whatever abilities they want to any mob, like how come mobs are given access to weapon skills used by players but but most only use abilities native to their race, or some are given jobs abilities allowed to players but most don't.

It's not that they get some traits, it's that they get every trait at the same lvl as players, in the same quantities as players and gain stat boots in the same vein as players. They gain spells at the same lvls as players too, it's one of the ways you can tell that Blm mob is at least lvl 50 when it starts Freezing your ass. And the only mobs I know of with player WS are some ToAU Beastmen/Undead and a few humanoid NPC bosses and NMs. Most mobs use their own special attacks native to their race because that's all they have. But those that *can* use PC WS *do* use PC WS...and if you've ever fought a Blu Mamool you would know that.

NM's don't need to be some magical case using a completely different system to other mobs in order to work, most only have increased stats and maybe an extra ability or two

NMs are special mobs and as such are treated in a special way, with custom stats and often times custom ability and trait lists. Much like most CCGs, the rules exists and are 100% effective...until you have that one card that specifically breaks them. In games like this, there are always a basic rule set and *always* exceptions to that rule. And NMs are those exceptions.

And btw, Pankration *prooves* that every mob has a Job.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On topic

Would it be safe to say that War is the predominant Job choice for mobs? And are there any Thf mobs? I'm not sure if Raptors have Triple Attack or that they're just attacking REALLY fast.

[hongman]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

lol >.>

The ones in Uleguerand Range do have Fast Cast I swear to god >.> as in, 3-4s cast...

[Armando]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

IF mobs were equiped with jobs in the same way as players are they'd have access to all of their abilities, not only a selected few.

No. You admit that Beastmen have jobs. Beastmen don't use their abilities. Argument is invalid.

Mobs such as Morbol and Kracken have multiple limbs, therefore it makes sence for them to attack multiple times, not because they're WAR/WAR or anything like that, just because they can.

Why does a Beetle NOT Double Attack? Why does a Crab NOT Double Attack? Why is having MP and Defense Bonus traits at the same time as PLD gets them mutually exclusive with having Double Attack, when pretty much every other mob family in the game has Double Attack and Defense Bonus I?

Seriously, Kafeen, I'm getting tired of this. I generally refrain from being an ass, but I have to tell you to STFU already. I couldn't care less how much sense this makes to you, what matters is what happens in-game. Most importantly, you have nothing to support your arguments.

Today's update: Manticores
Nothing particularly special here. Perfect fit for a WAR/WAR mob with B VIT and E AGI. Enhanced movement speed and veeeery slow attacks, but anyone who's fought one already knew that. At the very least, I did figure out that their Delay is between 359 and 371 (5.98-6.18 secs.)

Im think Worms might actually be BLM/RDM (Fast Cast)

Go test the ones in Ulegrerand Range - those bitches cast Ga-3 like noone's business >.>

Kuftal Tunnel ones have slight Fast Cast too, but this is all from judging by eye, no real test data.

I doubt Original and Zilaart area Worms have Fast Cast. Fairly sure Quicksand Cave worms have standard Quake casting time. I'll double check those. But I sure as hell aren't going to test Uleguerand Range worms without a healer if they can cast Stonega 3 =P

[hongman]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Im think Worms might actually be BLM/RDM (Fast Cast)

Go test the ones in Ulegrerand Range - those bitches cast Ga-3 like noone's business >.>

Kuftal Tunnel ones have slight Fast Cast too, but this is all from judging by eye, no real test data.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

If the model predicts behavior in terms of damage taken/given, why not go with it until a better model comes along with greater explanatory power?

Maybe monsters don't really have jobs and support jobs, but until someone comes up with a better model to describe them with (supported by test data), I'll gladly pretend they do if it gives me an idea of how they take/give damage.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

I'm just looking at this from a common sense view. The way you're saying mobs work is that they have their base stats + job stats but their jobs never change. Why would you add an external element that is going to have no extra effect? I can't see why people are looking at this with such a backwards approach. IF mobs were equiped with jobs in the same way as players are they'd have access to all of their abilities, not only a selected few. Mobs such as Morbol and Kracken have multiple limbs, therefore it makes sence for them to attack multiple times, not because they're WAR/WAR or anything like that, just because they can.

You're really just taking yourself too seriously here.

This isn't even about common sense or math, this is just about plain observation. Pankration has revealed a lot of interesting data about mobs. Not only do some of these mobs have certain jobs, but the jobs you can changed them to are restricted in a fashion similar to how only certain jobs can use certain armor.

I can take a mimic and its a WAR, but I can only change its job to PLD, DRK, BST or SAM. Pretty much anything that could wear a hauby.

My goal in Pankration is still to raise the most evil creature I can devise and that's a PLD/NIN Mimic. He's not ready for his subjob yet, but he's holding his own and pissing off a lot of people with the one Feral Skill he has. I'm gonna see if I can make a pixie one for my taru.

[Kafeen]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Why are you trying to disprove this so hard? Have you seen, or done any of the math that has to do with this? I see no reason to be so skeptical about it, why in the world would it bother you for mobs to be certain jobs, with those random different cases(NM's, Ahriman, etc)?

I'm just looking at this from a common sense view. The way you're saying mobs work is that they have their base stats + job stats but their jobs never change. Why would you add an external element that is going to have no extra effect? I can't see why people are looking at this with such a backwards approach. IF mobs were equiped with jobs in the same way as players are they'd have access to all of their abilities, not only a selected few. Mobs such as Morbol and Kracken have multiple limbs, therefore it makes sence for them to attack multiple times, not because they're WAR/WAR or anything like that, just because they can.

Again, NMs are the EXCEPTION to the rule. They break *every* rule in the game, that's what makes them special. Some mobs can *spam* two hour abilities, despite job, level or race. Others can use one of a kind attacks that nothing else can use. Some NMs have *infinite* TP...you can start a fight and have them use their specials.

NMs aren't the only ones who have strange abilities like that. Fight the crawlers in Mount Zhayolm on fireday.

You're saying mobs have a main job and a sub job just like players do but NMs work differently. How can you seriously suggest that mobs follow the rules of players more closely than NMs follow the rule of mobs and then say mobs can be WAR/WAR or BLM/BLM. Last time I checked that wasn't possible for players.

You say mobs have jobs to allow them access to spells, but they don't use all spells, and as you've mentioned sometimes mobs will cast the same debuffs when they're useless. Mobs aren't given a job to allow them access to spells, they're simply given the spells that they use. In the case of worms this is earth based spells. In the case of other black mage type mobs this is limited to higher level spells so they don't cast lower tiered spells repeatedly. The AI on FF isn't very advanced, its kept as simple as possible since the servers have so much work to do.

I'm not disputing that mobs get some traites that players have access to through jobs, such as defence bonus on crabs, but these abilities or traits are not linked to specific job in the same way they are for players. The config scripts or whatever SE are using to setup the abilities for mobs simply allow them to add whatever abilities they want to any mob, like how come mobs are given access to weapon skills used by players but but most only use abilities native to their race, or some are given jobs abilities allowed to players but most don't.

NM's don't need to be some magical case using a completely different system to other mobs in order to work, most only have increased stats and maybe an extra ability or two.

[Armando]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Giving up on Goobbues for now >_> Their stats are extremely close to what they should be if they're WAR/WAR, but at some levels they're off by 1 or 2 points, and I can't figure out what the magic combination of jobs and racial stat ranks is. Had a similar problem with Hecteyes (assumed they were WAR/BLM) until I saw the Soul Plate say it's BLM/WAR. However, the Soul Plate for Goobbues isn't being much help in this instance.

I can say, though, that they're not MNKs, and they're most likely WAR/WAR. Also, they're one of the only mob families that actually attack slower than the rest. Based on the TP they give me, their Delay must fall somewhere between 309 and 321 (5.15-5.35 secs).