Common mobs with odd properties

[Mhurron]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-...ed_programming
Learn it, love it and hate it.

This is a computer system, it has rules. Rules like Gravit ... Sorry, I got side tracked here.

Anyway when you develop a rules system, you don't throw it out when you have fringe cases. You don't have one set of things going on over here then spend the time to create another one over there that does exactly the same thing with minor differences.

Job Classes are created. When a mob instance is created it inherits properties from it. This simplifies programming and testing. However, maybe you don't want everything to be inherited. For instance, why should a beetle scare a skeleton? So you block that job trait farther down the inheritance without having to rewrite everything for every case.

class beetle inherits PLD { //main job (has a method called JobAbilites which includes UndeadKiller which class Beetle currently has)
method JobAbilites {} //overrides PLD method JobAbilites so we don't inherit here
}

You now have a beetle that has PLD as it's job with all the related stats and spells, without having the UndeadKiller trait. You don't have to rewrite all the PLD traits, abilities and whatnot, PLD changes happen to every PLD mob and player and happen once and only have to be tested once.

[Armando]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

There is no flaw. If S-E can expand a mob's spell list to include whatever they damned well please, I'm sure they can take away Undead Killer (or simply set its proc rate to 0%?) or change a mob's Evasion rank. And the stats DO match in every other case. I've yet to find a WAR mob that has D-ranked main job VIT, and also doesn't have WAR's C-ranked AGI, or a BLM mob that has BLM's F-ranked VIT, that also doesn't have BLM's C-ranked AGI.

You're trying to make mountains out of molehills when it's your theory that actually is the more dubious of the two and has the most flaws. If S-E followed the job/sub templates perfectly, then we'd have some pretty boring mobs. Mobs having odd properties that don't mesh perfectly well with what you'd expect is, well, to be expected. It's sort of what this thread is about.

And Lmnop is correct in saying that you've been doing nothing but derailing this thread, since this thread is not about the validity of whether mobs have main jobs and sub jobs. And you know what else? If what I did in this thread is just list the Evasion and Defense levels of mobs of different families at certain levels, 1) nobody would give a damn, and 2) nobody would grasp the significance of the numbers. Providing their job and sub is akin to providing a graph - it's so much easier to look at and conceptualize the trends that are going on, than just looking at the raw data.

And finally, you NEED the job and sub to be able to work the formulas. Without them, we're pretty much fucked if what we want is to predict the mob's stats.

[Kafeen]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Feenicks (maybe?), Kafeen. I'm not going to be mean. I'm not going to tell you why you're wrong.

I will, however, point out that your posts are nothing but a derailing. This thread is half as long as it should be. Armando is trying to make this thread a resource -- an encyclopedia. What you're doing is akin to promoting melee RDM in a thread dedicated to how to efficiently main heal as a RDM.

If you have issues with whether or not you should define monsters by job, I suggest spending time at Studio Gobli with Babblefish at the ready (or, to make it easier, track down translations of their stuff such as Apple Pie threads or the web page in VZX's signature). If you cannot understand what's going on when you're through with all that knowledge, if your view of FFXI is still that of "you'd think they'd go for simple," then you have no place to make claims against someone putting in as much hard work as Armando.

I wasn't trying to shoot down the work being done, merely point out that you shouldn't read more into it that you can prove, especially when it can be so easilly contradicted.

Information such as:

Hurrican Wyvern I
Tough
With 326 Attack, I got "High Defense"
With 328 Attack, no message

Sword Skill 252
No Acc Gear (and with my STR being only 60) I got HE + HD
Acc + 3, the Accuracy message was gone.

or

X = 88 Club, 53 DEX = 114
---
LEVEL 44
163 Attack High Defense
164 Attack Normal Defense
X+2-1 High Evasion
X+2 Normal Evasion
Defense: 164
Evasion: 146

is great, it gives the facts of what you can test. Especially if this can be checked for a range of mobs to help people equip themsevles with more attack or accuracy when needed.

What I don't beleve helps is then deciding absract facts based on that when other information states otherwise.

For example.
Beetles. Stated as being PLD mobs. In addition to things I've already pointed out such as the lach of PLD abilities and white magic, Armando has even stated that they don't have the Undead Killer job trait, infact no mobs have killer traits based on their job, they have them based on the area of the ecosystem they belong to. Facts such as the levels they gain defence bonus traits again is great since it can actually be tested.

I'll admit that there is a good chance that mobs could be given rating in stats such as a A in Vitality, a C in Strength, it makes sence and would allow mobs which appear at multiple levels to scale in ability at a similar rate to players

This would also appear to match things like:

Magic Pots seem to be RDM/WAR with C-ranked evasion (even though RDMs have D-ranked Evasion). Got perfect matches in Defense

better. The assigning of a job when the stats don't even match is surely proving that the theory is flawed. Just because one stat is a match for one peticular job combination it doesn't mean that everything else missing should be ignored.

[Armando]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Temporary internet access.

Wishmaster: The TP test isn't mandatory. Even I don't do it unless I notice the mob is attacking slower/faster than the norm. As a matter of fact, it's the least important test, since it'll give the same results regardless of the mob's level or stats. It's getting their Defense/Evasion checks and the right level to go with them that's crucial.

Colibri: I believe they're RDM mobs, but haven't checked them myself.

On a more serious note, how do you know if a mob is war/war or blm/blm for instance?

Some of these job combos I can see how you figure out, but how do you know if they are subbing the same job?

I can tell because of their stats. A BLM/BLM mob will have less VIT than a BLM/RDM mob, for instance.

Good news, everyone! While I was internetless at the hotel, I bit the bullet and learned how to use Excel properly. That simplified the process of crunching the numbers a lot. Thanks to that, I've been able to quickly check a bunch of different combinations for Magic Pots and Goobbues.

Goobbues seem to be WAR/WAR and the formulas match well for the higher level goobbues, but it's slightly off for the ones outside the tree. I'm thinking that the level range I got off of FFXIclopedia and Somepage might've been off. Magic Pots seem to be RDM/WAR with C-ranked evasion (even though RDMs have D-ranked Evasion). Got perfect matches in Defense, and the Evasion formulas are off for just one level of the pots I got data for. I'm going to go back and try to get the Evasion for that level of magic pot again in case I wrote it down wrong.

[eticket109]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Thank you for the hard work Armando, this is great stuff.

Thanks as well to Kafeen. Your subtle and witty satire has kept me chuckling throughout the entire thread. Good show.

[Vyuru]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

and they've been said to have both Double Attack and an MP pool

Perhaps they merited their mp?

On a more serious note, how do you know if a mob is war/war or blm/blm for instance?

Some of these job combos I can see how you figure out, but how do you know if they are subbing the same job?

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

OK. Here are partial results. I had to go back to my MH because I forgot THE GOD DAMNED NINJA TOOLS.

Hurrican Wyvern I
Tough
With 326 Attack, I got "High Defense"
With 328 Attack, no message

Sword Skill 252
No Acc Gear (and with my STR being only 60) I got HE + HD
Acc + 3, the Accuracy message was gone.

I'm on the way back so I'll try to kill one this time. Voivre is up tho, so I suppose he's going to be roaming around for a bit.

[Taskmage]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

No I'm heading there now. I planned on doing the Def test and such and TP tests, but I have to KILL IT to find out what level it was. Grendal took em down, but they didn't do Dread Shriek not once. So I doubt I'll be that lucky.

Meh, barblizzard, barpara, stack of remedy drop. If you don't wanna, I might have a go at it.

Out of curiosity, are the any mobs that are Blue Mages? That question has always been bugging my mind, because when you think about it, it's sort of a paradox . . .
Also, any Dancer/Scholar mobs released yet?

The only obviously blu mobs are mamool ja mimickers. You could make an arguement for colibri being blu since they essentially "learn" spells from us and send them back. That'd be a bit of a stretch maybe, but don't blus have nearly identical base stat growth compared to rdm?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Out of curiosity, are the any mobs that are Blue Mages? That question has always been bugging my mind, because when you think about it, it's sort of a paradox . . .

Also, any Dancer or Scholar mobs released yet?

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

No I'm heading there now. I planned on doing the Def test and such and TP tests, but I have to KILL IT to find out what level it was. Grendal took em down, but they didn't do Dread Shriek not once. So I doubt I'll be that lucky.

Edit:
I'm just going to Sleep nuke. I don't feel like taking my swords out when I might die for the sake of science, lol..

[Callisto]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

You shouldn't need to do it more than 2-3 times to test it, if you want to be really safe I suggest not engaging, just letting it whack you 3-4 times, sleeping, Cure, repeat, then once you get to 10 hits check how much TP you have, Sleep 2, logout so it despawns. It shouldn't WS right when it hits 100% if you don't have it down to low health, no chance of eating Dead Shriek/Fang Rush/Radiant Breath.
------------------------------------------
Add: If you won't be getting around to this in the next night or two I can do it, I have to go out to IC to farm a Haku eye anyways.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

I was going to get some remedies for the journey, but I'm just going to bring reraise, because I'm sure that if Dread Shriek hits me, I'm just fuckin dead.

[Lmnop]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Feenicks (maybe?), Kafeen. I'm not going to be mean. I'm not going to tell you why you're wrong.

I will, however, point out that your posts are nothing but a derailing. This thread is half as long as it should be. Armando is trying to make this thread a resource -- an encyclopedia. What you're doing is akin to promoting melee RDM in a thread dedicated to how to efficiently main heal as a RDM.

If you have issues with whether or not you should define monsters by job, I suggest spending time at Studio Gobli with Babblefish at the ready (or, to make it easier, track down translations of their stuff such as Apple Pie threads or the web page in VZX's signature). If you cannot understand what's going on when you're through with all that knowledge, if your view of FFXI is still that of "you'd think they'd go for simple," then you have no place to make claims against someone putting in as much hard work as Armando.

[Callisto]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

You're a RDM, goofball. Take a few hits, Sleep it, Cure yourself, let it wake up, take a few more, rinse, repeat.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Ok, well how about this, what tests can I do without engaging the enemy?

I can do it in two parts- I can find out the Defense and the Evasion and the Delay without taking out my weapon. But to do that I'd probably sub WAR or PLD so that I can get my defensive abilities up. I might be able to do that with NIN sub, but IDK about surviving 10 straight hits with that paper-thin def ; ;