Fishing bots: PWNED

[PetriW]

Originally posted by Mal
Black Mages cast spells

This is what I HATE MORE THAN FREAKING ANYTHING! The notion that black mages only do one thing, nuke. It comes from other mmorpgs and it's ruining so many PTs, I want to personally strangle EVERY SINGLE blm that refuses to heal.
It's plain DISGUSTING when the blm has almost full mp while PT is waiting for whm to regen mp. If the blm had done some assist healing they'd probably be able to do 2 more mobs in chain.

There are seriously level 30+ people that don't believe chain #3+ exist! They think it ends at chain #2!

(yes folks, that's a lot of hate)

And Mal, if you're really level 20 you have so much left to experience. :sweat:

[Deedlit]

Originally posted by PetriW

Heck, back in EverQuest everyone knew the basics of partying after crushbone. In FFXI it's standard to meet extreme incompetence around level 32-35 (who haven't had a bad garliage pt...) and for some jobs (non-advanced mage jobs comes to mind) that incompetence might stretch up into the 40ies.

I'll vouch that you can still find idiotic players in the 50s...PTed with a DRK at lvl 53 that had his drk magic skill at lvl 71..."why would I use it, it never lands..." :mad:

[Loial]

That the same DRK that never used Berserk, Soul Eater and Last Resort?

And had a Scythe 10 levels old? And insisted that he'd do more damage with a one handed sword?

[PetriW]

Originally posted by Deedlit
I'll vouch that you can still find idiotic players in the 50s...PTed with a DRK at lvl 53 that had his drk magic skill at lvl 71..."why would I use it, it never lands..." :mad:

Of course, there are stupid people at every level but at 50+ at least you get into decent PTs on a consistent basis and if someone sucks usually 5 members think they suck rather than 5 members think we should live with it cause "even 300 exp an hour is exp".

[Deedlit]

Originally posted by Loial
That the same DRK that never used Berserk, Soul Eater and Last Resort?

And had a Scythe 10 levels old? And insisted that he'd do more damage with a one handed sword?

No no, two different DRKs, but they both sucked =P

Ugh, the thing that kills me is, these people are constantly with their seek flag up now, and complain about not being able to PT for weeks.

Do you THINK they would get a clue, and upgrade their armor, or go do skillups? No, they're dumb, and just sit around waiting for someone to take pity on them.

[Mal]

I find that FFXI demands more competence from the parties than other mmorpgs I've played

I want to personally strangle EVERY SINGLE blm that refuses to heal.

See what I mean? I'll give you FF11 does demand more from parties - which in essence also makes more of a "cookie cutter" sort of experience in parties ("YOU'RE THE PALADIN, SIR. YOU TAKE DAMAGE. NO NO NO, KEEP YOUR SHIELD ON. AS FOR YOU, MR. RED MAGE, YOU ARE TO ENFEEBLE, NOT FIGHT. BACKUP HEAL IF THE WHITE MAGE GETS TIRED. SPEAKING OF WHICH, WE CANNOT GO HUNT UNTIL WE HAVE A WHITE MAGE. GEE, THERE ARE NONE AROUND TODAY.") and it gets kind of tiring. I like games that give me more control over how I want to make my character, and I want that control I get to not send me in the direction of a gimped character. FF11 has basically made it so in order for parties to be efficient, there ABSOLUTELY MUST be certain precautions taken. There's no alternative. Other games may be like this, but I've noticed FF11 takes it to a new degree.

Granted, it's great that FF11 demands more teamwork, but the thing is, it's now on the players to make the game shine. Personally, I've been in a few great parties, and I've had fun. But then I've had plenty of times where I'm in very crappy parties, or parties that get nowhere because we're waiting for a hundred different factors, or just no party at all, and that is REALLY Detrimental to the game.
MMORPGs will probably always have a degree of waiting, but honestly, I should not have to chalk up a "Bad day of gaming" because I can't find/make a party in Valkurm, and hence, wasted at least an hour hoping, just to get no Experience. Or to get in a crappy party, die, and lose Experience. Maybe you say that's the way things go, but in a game I'm paying a subscription fee for, I expect to have fun whenever I play the game, not whenever there's an idle White Mage around.

And Mal, if you're really level 20 you have so much left to experience.

Oh, you're absolutely right, which is why I'm not giving up yet. I WANT to give this game a chance, and I HAVE had fun with it, despite all of my rants. I'm just saddened by a lot of elements in this game (or a lot of elements this game lacks) and I probably won't stick with FF11 forever. But I'm going to continue to try in the mean time.

[Xccoortri]

As for crafting, I don't expect much of a minigame when it comes to crafting itself, but fishing could afford to be less boring.

This is not a challenge, and I don't want to start an argument, but can you give some examples of HOW you would like it to be more interesting? People are very quick to criticize one thing, without ever giving a viable alternative.

[Icemage]

What I find odd is the comment about two almost mutually exclusive things:

(1) You want complete control over your character development

(2) You want that control to not lead you to build a "gimpy" character.

In the world of game design, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. Different is, by definition, unequal - that is why they are different. You can come close (with a LOT of work), but with many, many variables in your system, even small differences add up to big variations in the final result.

Granting the ability to control what path your character chooses means that you are equally empowered to make less optimal choices. This is not because game designers specifically want to make it this way - it is the nature of game design. The "holy grail" of a game where you can be an infinite number of different things and be equally capable as any of them simply DOES NOT EXIST. Ever wonder why chess pieces on both sides of the chessboard do the same thing? There's a reason for that - it maintains the game balance.

The true measure of how well constructed a game is, from a design standpoint, is how close to this ideal one can come while still making the game fun for your target audience.

---

Bringing this back on topic, the idea that fishing isn't fun "for you" is irrelevant. There is a reason why ice cream comes in more flavors than just vanilla. So you say you want to fish, but you'd like it to be more fun "for you"? That's great - generally speaking, I'd like it to be a bit more interactive too. That doesn't deter me from doing it, however. If you find it so boring and pointless that you don't think its a worthwhile thing to do for your $12.95 a month, there are many other things you can do for money in the game - you are always welcome to do one of those things instead. That is what those methods are there for.

Thus we come down to the whole concept of botting. People say they bot because fishing is "boring"... or because they "don't have the time"... or because "they can't make any money any other way".

I don't buy any of those reasons. They bot because they want to cheat the system - they're in a huge hurry to get money so they can do <insert whatever goal you choose> here. They have lost sight (assuming they ever had it) of the fact that one of the most rewarding aspects of playing a MMORPG is not about how cool your character is, or how much money you have, or how much you've accomplished. Those things are nice, sure. But once you finish all of that.... then what?

As with so many things, the journey (and the people you meet along the way) is more enjoyable than the destination. Those who lack the vision to see this and choose to cheat are mostly cheating themselves. In the case of a multiplayer game, this has an unfortunate side effect of cheating everyone else in the game as well.

If you want to cheat in a single player game, knock yourself out. No one else cares, their game experience isn't affected at all. In a multiplayer game, though, cheating hurts everyone, including the person who is cheating - even if they don't realize this themselves.


Icemage

[Macht]

Mal,

The intention wasn't to make it more cookie cutter. It's to make full use of all the abilities given to your character, it's really bad when you have a RNG with Sharpshot ready and they refuse to use on a WS or Barrage and it results in a miss. Same with a RNG/WAR who does use Sharpshot but refuses to use Beserk, then the WS or Barrage end up doing less damage then what they could of potentially made.

RDM's are not intended to be purely Enfeeblers, their jobs responsibilities changes frequently and they have to adapt and mold to what the current party needs to reach it's max potential. Weather it be enfeebling a monster to make it easier to hit, adding Haste to a player who's attacks are slow or lacking, helping to sustain a person's MP to last longer, healing, nuking, or in rare cases adding that extra melee damage to help defeat the monster.

You'll see when you get higher level the aspects you see that seem as just a copy of another MMORPG will start to change, there will be noticable differences that need you interact more and use more of your choices of Main/Sub to their best.

[Mal]

Breath of Fire III and Dark Cloud 2 both had fishing minigames, which are a good example of how to do fishing. So did Ocarina of Time.

I also don't see fishing bots as cheating, since the action of "fishing" is so simplified, it really doesn't matter whether there's a bot or a human behind the controller because the exact same simple action is being done for hours. There are players who have admitted to turning their chat channels off, and sitting up for hours doing the fishing thing while reading a book or watching TV, and they aren't paying attention to the game. Is the line between cheating and legitimate fishing SO THIN that it's crossed by the player not pushing the same button? What if I make my little sister do the fishing for me while I go to work? That can also be taken as botting. The bot I'm using just happens to be another human being.

And you're right, by giving me open-ended customizablility, there gives the chance of me gimping myself. However, even in this game, I'm still considered a gimp if I do my own thing, because it's considered "bad." This is both the company's fault and the players' fault - as some templates might just work, but players don't want to play with them, and others just don't work because of how SE made the game.
It's a Final Fantasy game, with the traditional Job System, and yet I'd be shunned for trying to mix Magic and Melee.

Anyway, I'm gonna cut down on the bitching now, because as it's been shown, I'm just level 20. If you guys claim things get a lot more interesting at higher levels, I'll take your word for it and try the higher levels out.

But man, being a Monk in Qufim kind of sucks. :D

[Macht]

Just being MNK at lower levels is a pain as it is. Even worse those first 18 levels without a sub XD. When MNK gets higher lvl they are very usefull against a variety of monsters, and of course are terrible against certain monsters (Just like a RNG trying to fight bones is a bad idea, but a MNK could wipe the floor with them).

EDIT:

Good example of this is my bonehead idea to help a lv. 18 MNK get a magicked skull with my lv. 30 RNG as opposed to my lv. 30 BLM. What was really bad each shot I did on those bones (being the best arrows I could get) was 5 damage under their two hits each cycle, now that's bad XD.

Numbers so you can see better each shot I did about 45 damage each hit the lv. 18 MNK did was 25 each fist for a total of 50.

[neighbortaru]

Being mnk/thf in qufim is probably making your experience worse than it should be. As is, you won't do super damage on the crabs, but you're also using a sub job that brings nothing of use to the table. At least sub WAR for the backup provoke so you are a bit more marketable to a PT.

btw, this thread really went off-topic :spin:

[Xccoortri]

It's a Final Fantasy game, with the traditional Job System, and yet I'd be shunned for trying to mix Magic and Melee.

I think stems from the inherant party system in this game. This game was designed to encourage cookie cutter combos because of the party system. The fact that everyone covers one aspect of the fight, weather it be nuking, fighting, tanking or healing, makes it so that covering two different aspects of the fight at once just makes it so that you are doing a worse job at both then you could be doing at one.

As for the line between botting and real fishing...yes it is very thin...and I'm a huge anti-bot enthusiast...but last night I was very tempted to fool around with a bot and try it out...I came so close to doing it, but I knew I'd feel bad because I always rag on other for using them. But then I came here and read this paragraph:

I don't buy any of those reasons. They bot because they want to cheat the system - they're in a huge hurry to get money so they can do <insert whatever goal you choose> here. They have lost sight (assuming they ever had it) of the fact that one of the most rewarding aspects of playing a MMORPG is not about how cool your character is, or how much money you have, or how much you've accomplished. Those things are nice, sure. But once you finish all of that.... then what?

This is 100% percent correct. I want a sense of accomplishment, not a bunch of gil handed to me. I want to be able to say to people, I fished 833 stacks of moat carp single handedly to earn lu shang's rod, and I fished 800 hours to get my level 100 fishing etc. I am in no rush to earn these things, becuase when I do earn everything I want, the game becomes useless. If you just bot and get everything handed to you you will find yourself growing tired of it VERY fast.

[Mal]

I was thinking of starting up Warrior, then being a MNK/WAR until 30 when I can use Sneak Attack with my Monk (Viable idea, guys?) Plus, I can offer back-up Provoke. So I think I'll do that.

And I'm gonna go ahead and agree with the accomplishment argument. You're right - I feel a lot better knowing I earned my crafting level rather than having picked it up over night.
Even so, I wish fishing wasn't so monotonous. At the very least, I wish they'd get rid of the code they just implemented, and not make me have to wait 30+ seconds between castings. What's the function of that, anyway? Does my character get like, really winded from standing up and holding that pole? Somebody needs to tell our characters they'd be a lot more comfortable sitting down while fishing.

[Xccoortri]

That's true...it's like square came up with the fishing system, then realized, "oh crap, they are going to be able to fish too much" and they threw in the wait time in between casts to make it so you don't catch too much... -_-