Fishing bots: PWNED

[Paiku]

Just responded accordingly to an equally rude comment:

More there just to entertain you like a kid with his rattler

Yeah, remember that one?

Coding in mini games and other things for crafting is a huge amount of code? Funny, they didn't seem to have any trouble creating 6.5 gigs worth of game data, graphics, music, and everything else, making this one of the largest, if not THE largest MMORPG in terms of disk space used. Square Enix is not some tiny little development team, so save the excuses.

Oh, and spare me, the excuses about concentrating on story and fighting. The core fighting engine remains the same as it always has, with slight changes every once in awhile like the TP repeated-hits nerf. Yeah, and we ALL know how deep and engrossing FFXI's story is, that's why there's so many discussions about it, and it's at the forefront of players minds.

Never ceases to amaze me how people can defend a game's flaws by reaching for anything they can grab. "Oh, they don't have the time to develop all those features you're talking about." Oh really? Maybe I don't have the time to play this game anymore. "Oh, they don't need to make this feature fun, it's trying to emulate real life." Well maybe I should not fork over $12.95 a month and just do the real thing. "FINE! JUST QUIT THEN! LESS LAG FOR ME!" OK.

And addressing the next person:

I don't know about you guys, but if it isn't fun then I'm not going to bitch and whine about how it could be sooo much better, I just won't bother doing it. Plenty of other things to do in the game.

Yet you take the time to swing on by and read these kinds of posts, huh. Apparently the game wasn't enthralling enough to keep you away from threads like these.

How about this. I'll continue making posts so that Square Enix sees them (and rest assured, game companies DO look at gaming boards, particularly MMORPG developers) and perhaps will address issues that I talk about at some point, and you go back to your alchemy that you're content with.

Change doesn't happen without voicing your opinion. You're content with inaction, we're not. D-d-d-deal with it?

[Macht]

That point I made was in relation to a defense of the attack of the system being of the 80's type games on Atari and such.

I did a little research about that True Fantasy Live Online. There is a huge difference between these two games, some of it's aspects are intresting but seems like they'll have problems (Probably explains it's 2 year delay to just beta test is what I gathered).

This games design is not focused around battles or co-ordinating attacks to produce stronger attacks or even an elemental system that integrates spells/WS bassed on that elements gaining/lossing power. It's battle system was more simplified because it's focus is crafts. This is more of a SIMs meets Fantasy type game were the focus is mainly on the craft you choose to do. It appears to follow the same basics of being stuck to the job you choose and unable to change it like Lineage and Lineage II does.

That's the penalty though, a more complex battle system and simplified crafts or more complex crafts and simplified battle system. There is a trade-off occuring here were it appears the game can be played solo but won't have much to say in battle strategies or methods. So if you really enjoy a complex crafting system over a complex battle system then it seems TFLO is what you should really be playing then, because crafts is what it's focus is on.

The one thing about the game I did see as intresting is the characters features actually changing as it progresses, but the trade off for that is if you want more defined 3D models or if you want the cartoony models. I myself prefer the more defined 3D models more.

Just going threw the Interview with Akihiro Hino relates to that very same thing.

[Nodoka]

Ummm...

There are Synth bots. There are crawler bots. I've even seen orc bots (run around beating up orcs for gil). There are the ever popular NM bots. There are AH bots (buying items people sell for less accedently). Tons of bots out there.

[Mal]

And Actually fishing is exactly like that if you ever go fishing at a pier that is basically what you do.

Except when I go fishing in real life, I can sit there, and fish as often as I want, and not pull my line back in automatically because "YOU DIDN'T CATCH ANYTHING" then have to wait an unspecified amount of time before I'm allowed to cast my line again.
I also don't spend $12.95 a month to go fishing, either. I'm playing an online RPG, so I expect the things I do on the side to be fun. I don't accept the solution of "Don't like it? Don't do it." It WANT to get into fishing, as I hear it's profitable. But I want it to be fun.

Cast out the line, sit the rod somewere secure, and go back to check it once in a while to make sure the line doesn't tangle

WAIT, WAIT!! Isn't that BOTTING?? So if I sit the rod somewhere and walk away, will I have to worry about some armor-clad guy turning my fishing rod around and throwing me in jail?

Basic fishing isn't throwing out the line move the rod left and right till something bites.

Basic Getting-killed-by-a-wild-animal isn't falling to the ground without a visible scratch on your body, and waiting an hour for somebody to revive you. Nor is Basic Getting-killed-by-a-wild-animal as simple as disappearing and reappearing at the last place you "Bound" to. Guess Square should implement Permadeath to make the game more realistic, right?

Also, when I go fishing IRL, I do not recall typing "/fish" on a keyboard to cast my line. And for the life of me, I can't find any foldable bamboo fishing rods ANYWHERE.

Hell when I go fishing the basic things I bring with me IRL besides the fishing gear and all is a good book or a friend to talk to.

But when I play a video game, I do not like to bring books with me or other activities, because I want to PLAY THE GAME.
I imagine other people want to do that, as well, otherwise, they'll go read a book while they have a program automate the boring aspects of the game (fishing, that is) for them.

Sitting up reading a book while pressing Enter every so often, and sitting in another room reading a book while a bot does it for you isn't really that drastic of a difference.

[SorrowFool]

I think making it so you have to zone is retarded. I wouldn't care about having to turn myself 45 degrees or whatever but having to run all the way to a zone would be annoying.

And people really shouldn't try and compare fishing in game to fishing in RL. Most people go fish to relax and chill w/ friends or by themselves. You can have a "bad" day of fishing and still have enjoyed your time there. (Like that saying "A bad day of fishing is better than a good day of work") Fishing in the game is totally different. In game you fish to catch fish. If you don't catch any fish then you wasted your time. In the game, I don't fish to relax, I don't fish for fun, I fish to catch fish. A bad day of fishing in game is a waste of my time.

[Paiku]

The game isn't even out yet and you seem to already know what the battle system in TFLO is going to be like. Where can I invest in one of these "what-games-are-going-to-be-like-before-they-even-are-out" psychics that are apparently in abundance?

And, once again, you fail to address the fact that there is room for improvement in Final Fantasy XI. Don't give me this crap about sacrificing one good thing for the other. It is more than possible to have both crafting AND combat be fun, it's a question of whether game developers are willing, because they very much are able.

When TFLO finally releases, I will play it and I will draw conclusions then. And if the battle system is lackluster, I'll make my complaints accordingly. It's really simple... each MMORPG release tries to do what a previous release failed to do, or at least aim somewhere around that. The only way things will ever improve, whether it be a current game or a future game, is if the problems are made known.

And that's my last bit in this thread.

[Mal]

The problem with FF11 is they didn't try to make it unique at all. I read a while ago, when FF11 was still being made, that Sakaguchi was a big Everquest fan. You can tell (assuming he's the guy who headed this game) as this game rips a lot off from it, as well as other MMORPGs.

And that's what makes me angry about SE this time around. They didn't try for an innovative fun game like they do with the other Final Fantasies, instead they just went for what's already successful to make a quick buck (so it seems, at least.)

The battle system in this game could have EASILY been a transition of Final Fantasy's traditional Active Time Battle, as it's a turn-based battle system that runs in real time. Did they do that? No, instead they implemented a "new" battle system where you hit a button and your character continues to attack until you tell him to cast a spell or disengage. In essence, battles were dummied down to average MMORPG faire. I expect more from a Final Fantasy game.

Crafting operates on the same page as most everything else in this game: Something to sink time into. Many MMORPGs are successful because the players that become addicted to the games are wasting time doing pseudo-fun tasks that consume more time than they should - in doing so, it takes them longer to get things done in the game, hence they're playing longer, and keeping their subscription. Granted, this HAS TO be done to keep an MMORPG running, but there comes a time when a company making one of these games has to decide to break the mold and start giving players more fun for their buck. Square Enix is a company I'd imagine would do just that, but they did not.

In Ultima Onlina, I could go fishing by standing by a pier, holding a poll, and repeating the fishing command over and over. THAT WAS A LONG TIME AGO. Why are we still doing it in a current MMORPG? And why are we paying money to fund a staff that's spending time doing things like implementing code to make fishing even MORE tedious and boring? They put it under the guise of "Well, if you guys weren't botting, these steps wouldn't have to be taken." Hi, guys! If you'd put more of a thought into things like fishing in this game, maybe the botters would want to PLAY the game instead of letting an external program do the tedious chores while they sleep, so they can come back and enjoy the rest of the game they're paying for.

Why, in a Final Fantasy game, am I still doing lame fetch quests? Why in a current MMORPG, am I running into a plethora of other characters that look exactly like my own, be it in outfit, appearance, or both? Why is it all bats look alike, all goblins look alike, all worms look alike, etc? Why am I paying for a game that requires me to plant my ass down somewhere and wait for a White Mage? Why am I given such freedom to choose which Job combination I wnat to use, when over half of them make me perform horribly and hence, require me to plant my ass down even LONGER because nobody likes me and would rather take a player who has a more viable combination?

These questions, among many others, are reasons why I'll be moving onto games like True Fantasy Live and Worlds of Warcraft. Even Everquest II sounds like it's taking a larger step towards innovation than FF11 is. And yet, this game costs nearly an arm and a leg (in comparison to other MMORPGs, also in regard to what you get for your money. ie. ONE character initially) for less. Even games like Asheron's Call 2 and Star Wars Galaxies, which are loaded with faults, are getting ironed out and are having newer and newer things added to them to make the games more attractive. I'd be willing to go back to those games eventually. Why? Because despite how crappy they were, they had some pretty good ideas. If a company adds onto a crappy game with good ideas, it eventually becomes a pretty good game (in theory.) FF11 is a stable game with terrible ideas, and will only continue being that way in expansions to come.

And believe me, I'd love to be wrong. I'd love to wake up tomorrow and read online somewhere that the new expansion will make fishing more of a minigame and add more armor/monster models, among other things. But I doubt that will happen.

[Johnnybigone]

Funny, I thought this topic was just about how this guy found out that SE made people turn a certain amount after long periods of fishing. Now its made FFXI sound like a huge downer.

[Mal]

I think what they should've done instead, as far as quick fixes go, is make it so your character just turns around after he finishes fishing. I mean, I want them to do a lot more than that, but hey, it's better that they just make you have to turn around between castings instead of running around like a moron wondering where and when the bite rate is going to pick up again.

EDIT: Then again, botters could easily remedy that. Nevermind.

[Xccoortri]

I think this turn around thing is more of a glitch then anything to do with attacking botters...I have fished more then 7 hours in the last 2 days and not been turned around once...I think it is totally unrelated to botting and is not fixing anything...:confused:

[PetriW]

Turning around is more likelly related to where you're standing rather than a GM. For example, if you want to turn a lot:
1) Fish on the stairs on the boat, will turn quite often in the middle of the stairs.
2) Fish in Bastok Markets on one of the bridges, in some spots you'll turn on EVERY cast.

[Macht]

Originally posted by Paiku
The game isn't even out yet and you seem to already know what the battle system in TFLO is going to be like. Where can I invest in one of these "what-games-are-going-to-be-like-before-they-even-are-out" psychics that are apparently in abundance?

And, once again, you fail to address the fact that there is room for improvement in Final Fantasy XI. Don't give me this crap about sacrificing one good thing for the other. It is more than possible to have both crafting AND combat be fun, it's a question of whether game developers are willing, because they very much are able.

When TFLO finally releases, I will play it and I will draw conclusions then. And if the battle system is lackluster, I'll make my complaints accordingly. It's really simple... each MMORPG release tries to do what a previous release failed to do, or at least aim somewhere around that. The only way things will ever improve, whether it be a current game or a future game, is if the problems are made known.

And that's my last bit in this thread.

I am by no means a phsycic, that was my analsis by reviewing the Interview and what came out of that, observation from movie clips with the battle system in-effect, data I could gather about spells/combat skills, and the overall focus in the game. Even during the Interview the only aspects that Akihiro Hino wanted to talk about was the systems character custumizability and the crafting, every mention to the battle system he tried guiding the subject to a different route (Again emphasizing character custumization and crafts).

The game itself has a reported meager 70 spells were FFXI has around almost 200 - 300 spells (WHM, BLM, Songs, Ninjitsu, and Summons) and when it was being developed had a reported of over 150 spells. The only thing they would mention as far combat skills is that which you get are bassed off your crafts and job, so I couldn't make a huge enough assesment there. However, by the statement of skills being based from crafts and job as opposed to weapons and job is another pointer that the game is being more developed around crafting and less to battles.

The last part that leads to the battle system being more simplified is in the Interview itself were Akihiro Hino practically said that they are trying to get away from the fighting aspect as having any focus. That is how I drew my conclusion of the battle system being more simplistic and less of a focus.

Adding in a complex interactive crafting system to everything that already loads in this game would be to much for a server side control to properly maintain. This means that S-E would end up having to yield more delicate controls to the Client side which would leave an opening for a hack or other problems.

[Xccoortri]

Exactly what I said, while it might have some awesome crafting system, that just means that some other aspect of the game will not be as well developed as one in FFXI. And perosnally I'd play a game like harvest moon or legend of the river king if I wanted to be playing a crafting game.

[Mal]

What exactly does FF11 have that's "Developed?" The battle system is just about as simple as any other MMORPG. You do the same thing with every monster. Fighters attack it, Black Mages cast spells, White Mages heal people. Then the monster goes after a mage, and the Warrior taunts it back. There are a few variations, like Weapon Skills (Limit Breaks, essentially) and Sneak Attack, but overall, in my experience, each battle was just like the last. I'd like more interaction in my battles.

As for crafting, I don't expect much of a minigame when it comes to crafting itself, but fishing could afford to be less boring.

As for True Fantasy Live, there has to be SOME sort of emphasis on combat. I mean, what's the purpose of being a Blacksmith if there's really not much of a use for weapons and armor? Additionally, crafting takes resources, most of which are achieved by hunting monsters I'd imagine. Even if it came down to picking up a pickaxe and extracting some chunks of ore somewhere, leaving resource patches laying about wouldn't be very challenging if there wasn't any work getting to it.

I'm sure TFL will have enough combat-related stuff in it to make things interesting. I have a feeling that the crafting system, however, is what the game's claim to fame will be, which is why it's getting discussed the most.

[PetriW]

Originally posted by Mal
What exactly does FF11 have that's "Developed?" The battle system is just about as simple as any other MMORPG. You do the same thing with every monster. Fighters attack it, Black Mages cast spells, White Mages heal people. Then the monster goes after a mage, and the Warrior taunts it back. There are a few variations, like Weapon Skills (Limit Breaks, essentially) and Sneak Attack, but overall, in my experience, each battle was just like the last. I'd like more interaction in my battles.

I find that FFXI demands more competence from the parties than other mmorpgs I've played (EQ, AC2, EvE), you may argue that it's simple but if you want to get the most exp out of a PT (We're not talking about 2k/hour being good here) it has to be competent, work well together and utilize all those weapons skills, sneak/tricks, songs, downtime management etc in an efficient manner.
To me a good pt is a pt that gets over 3k exp an hour, a really good pt is over 5k exp an hour and those are freaking rare.

Heck, back in EverQuest everyone knew the basics of partying after crushbone. In FFXI it's standard to meet extreme incompetence around level 32-35 (who haven't had a bad garliage pt...) and for some jobs (non-advanced mage jobs comes to mind) that incompetence might stretch up into the 40ies.
Heck, nothing is more painful than a PT where the tank and thf can't cooperate to do a fuidama in the beginning and the 3rd melee whines about getting hit and asking the thf not to use it. This is pretty common in the level 40-50 range...