So... Starcraft 2?

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

So, basically, Blizz eliminated lurkers and defilers and introduced a low-tech counter to ultras because terran ground wasn't overpowered enough in BW and they wanted to make it even more of an I WIN button?

Sounds like graphics win, gameplay fail to me.

Yea, the balanced isn't exactly even. Although, as I was saying earlier, Marines aren't the hot shit everybody believes them to be. They'll be the first units on the field with a ranged attack, so you've got to be wary of that, but there are plenty of counters later in the game. Colossi absolutely rape them.

[Karinya]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

While this is true Marines and Marauder counter pretty well everything, its not overly fair for a tech 1 unit to be honest

So, basically, Blizz eliminated lurkers and defilers and introduced a low-tech counter to ultras because terran ground wasn't overpowered enough in BW and they wanted to make it even more of an I WIN button?

Sounds like graphics win, gameplay fail to me.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I don't see why you keep wanting to argue this point. It's not making either of us any smarter. The counter challenges say "hey, sometimes you have to lead with a unit you didn't want to because that's what you still had when his next wave of units comes along." Just because you scouted that he has a bunch of barracks with tech labs doesn't mean it's nothing but marauders that are popping out of there. Learn to cope with the marines.

Or if you're really quick on the draw, you can stim and high-tail it the hell out of there :D

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I wouldn't say Void rays are overpowered as they are, now. But they're certainly so good that they keep gravitating towards being the backbone of protoss play. I hate them.

Dak and counters: yes, it's true that if you have a mutalisk, I need something which can hit it. Does that make Sentries a counter to mutalisks? I certainly hope not. What you keep missing is that you cannot always have the perfect unit for the situation at hand. I can try to have a good mix of units to come up against your good mix of units, but sometimes your marauders end up shooting my marines instead of my tanks.

Imagine this scenario: you're T and I'm P. You have a mass of marines to fight off my early void rays while I built a bunch of gateways. Now I come in with Zealots. Your marines are still good against them. They're marines, they're cool like that. But I have warpgates. My whole next wave of units is High Templars. Your marine balls are very NOT good against psionic storm. You're not going to GG just because you're lacking tanks in siege mode to pick them off or banshees to snipe them, are you? You're going to Stim forward and take the losses.

I don't see why you keep wanting to argue this point. It's not making either of us any smarter. The counter challenges say "hey, sometimes you have to lead with a unit you didn't want to because that's what you still had when his next wave of units comes along." Just because you scouted that he has a bunch of barracks with tech labs doesn't mean it's nothing but marauders that are popping out of there. Learn to cope with the marines.

Sorry, I'm not even sure why I'm arguing.

All I'm saying is that, while you do make with what you have, countering is all about adapting. If I'm playing Terran I'll always push out Marines and Marauders, because they're great for both offense and defense. Eventually, I will use them. I wont let them be because I've got something else I can use that works better. They'll definitely maneuver in some way or another and find the enemy's base or expansions.

Also, pushing your defense into a group of enemies they don't necessarily counter still isn't the best idea. If you're playing 1v1, hopefully you have an expansion that you can continue to build your army with. If you're playing on team, you're better off losing your base and keeping your force, with the goal of combining forces with your teammate(s). This goes double for air units, since they can be hid very easily in the corners and sides of the map. Even if you have only four Mutalisks to your name, you can harass while your friend acts as a diversion. This can very easily make or break the game for you.

[Lmnop]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I wouldn't say Void rays are overpowered as they are, now. But they're certainly so good that they keep gravitating towards being the backbone of protoss play. I hate them.

Dak and counters: yes, it's true that if you have a mutalisk, I need something which can hit it. Does that make Sentries a counter to mutalisks? I certainly hope not. What you keep missing is that you cannot always have the perfect unit for the situation at hand. I can try to have a good mix of units to come up against your good mix of units, but sometimes your marauders end up shooting my marines instead of my tanks.

Imagine this scenario: you're T and I'm P. You have a mass of marines to fight off my early void rays while I built a bunch of gateways. Now I come in with Zealots. Your marines are still good against them. They're marines, they're cool like that. But I have warpgates. My whole next wave of units is High Templars. Your marine balls are very NOT good against psionic storm. You're not going to GG just because you're lacking tanks in siege mode to pick them off or banshees to snipe them, are you? You're going to Stim forward and take the losses.

I don't see why you keep wanting to argue this point. It's not making either of us any smarter. The counter challenges say "hey, sometimes you have to lead with a unit you didn't want to because that's what you still had when his next wave of units comes along." Just because you scouted that he has a bunch of barracks with tech labs doesn't mean it's nothing but marauders that are popping out of there. Learn to cope with the marines.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Why are Void Rays the end-all-be-all unit? Nobody has been able to counter mine, yet, even if they've had credible intel and tech'd specifically to counter. I've used Void Rays to decimate armies of Vikings, Marines, Hydralisks, and Mutalisks. I think only the Hydras were close to defeating me. The charging rays don't dissipate between targets, and there's maybe only half a second spent between targets where the ray isn't firing. Micro'ing these units might be good against larger targets, but against smaller units they're better off picking their own targets.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Command & Conquer can go either way in terms of Swarmy really, especially when you get some of the really nasty super units out.


But in general swarming is just a natural aspect of RTS. You have opposing armies for crying out loud. It's pretty much unavoidable 90% of the time. However not all RTS are micro-fests like Star Craft.

Civilization is turn based and thus not an RTS. As far as console gaming goes, Halo Wars is still by far and above the best RTS ever, and even ranks way up there with PC games IMO and not just because it's Halo. It's actually a very underrated and well made game. Makes me sad that Ensemble went under and just a while back Robot passed it on to freaking Halo Waypoint... who have done nothing with it. I doubt there will ever be a title update 5 or new DLC.

EDIT: http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/10/gl...rize-money-th/

holy crap...

[MrMageo]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

You can't just have the counter, you have to scout and make the counter. Besides, that doesn't even occur until after the rush phase.

While this is true Marines and Marauder counter pretty well everything, its not overly fair for a tech 1 unit to be honest

Marine Counters
Mostly all air units (save broodlords)
Immortals


Marauder Counters
Ultralisk
Any toss gateway unit
Most terran mech (save siege tank in siege mode)
Roaches

Counters to MMM
Colosus
Templar
Banelings

So if you are terran an MMM ball can counter 90% of what your opponent can throw at you. Not only that but they are cheap tech 1 units by comparison. Leaving money to add in a few tanks to pretty well counter any combination of troops. Save colosi, which can be countered with several low cost fast produced vikings.

Kind of imbalanced to the terran side counter wise. But they have always been the defensive minded race. Also they are the only non-mass race, a zerg or toss can replace their armies much faster than a terran so I guess it is kind of balanced.

---------- Post added at 09:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 AM ----------

Also, are there any RTS that are less "swarmy" than Starcraft? From what I've been reading, I've seen some people say Warcraft III strove for a better balance. I did once play a turn-based version of Age of Empires on the DS and rather enjoyed it, is Civilization similar to that in an RTS context?

Civilization is weird, as it is an RTS, but it is also an ecconomic, and diplomatic simulator. Where you have to keep your economy going well to continue to make units, you need to provide food or your cities will revolt. You can make treaties and alliances, or you can simply take on the whole world. It is turn based, limited by the amount of units you have. once all your units have acted you are then done your turn.

If you liked Ag of Empires, Empire Earth is a good game, now it is not turn based but it is quite interesting, and can be a long drawn out game.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I have the gold medal on all 9 challenges. The only problem I had was thors vs carriers. That said, I don't remember using stalkers vs hellions. I remember using colossi behind force fields.

As for counters, you make it sound like paper/rock/scissors. If I have roaches, your zealots will die IF I micro them away from you. If I let them sit, zealots technically aren't the best solution by-cost but it's still damn close. If a zerg player throws up a spire and I'm protoss, I cannot instantly have a squad of phoenixes to eat the mutalisks that can and will pop out in droves. Phoenixes may be the perfect anti-muta, but damnit, I'll use my sentries/stalkers. I was probably going Templar tech anyway. Psi storm isn't as effective vs mutas as it was in BW but I'll try. And I'll make archons as they run out of energy -- despite them being a lot weaker than in BW, as well. This game isn't won by having the absolute perfect counter to every situation. You try your best to have as many of the right units as you can. The rest is scrapping.

You can't just have the counter, you have to scout and make the counter. Besides, that doesn't even occur until after the rush phase.

I had a match last night where it was my partner and I against two zerg players; my partner and I being zerg and terran respectively. Of course my first thought is to wall, but the ramp is too wide to cover it in time, so I start building from both sides and my friend sticks zerglings in the middle. Those zerglings made for an effective wall, as my marines were able to fire past them without taking any damage.

We also faced another team of both zerg, who 12 pooled and managed to pump out two dozen speedlings each. By that time I was beginning to make roaches while my friend tech'd to air. That was an interesting replay to watch.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

dunno, its been that way for a bit now, some sites will embed, such as Gametrailers, but it doesn't seem that Youtube does anymore.

Also, are there any RTS that are less "swarmy" than Starcraft? From what I've been reading, I've seen some people say Warcraft III strove for a better balance. I did once play a turn-based version of Age of Empires on the DS and rather enjoyed it, is Civilization similar to that in an RTS context?

[Taskmage]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Not as awesome as the [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5NgS7UPsjc"]YouTube- ‪The 1000th Commentary (Epic Dual Planetary Fortress Rush with montage)‬‎[/nomedia] (skip to 4:11)

---------- Post added at 12:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 AM ----------

christ, what is the forum doing to youtube urls now, eh?

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHT6cjr-bJ8&playnext=1&videos=1I2IpaaZVr8"]YouTube- ‪Shortest Game Ever?‬‎[/nomedia]

SCV rush lmao

[Aeni]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

That was epic but it actually wasn't TLO, if we're thinking of the same game.

YouTube- ‪HD Starcraft 2 IdrA v DrunkBobby p1/1‬‎

Ooh .. yeah, I'm thinking of another match, but DrunkBobby was the one I meant to refer to. There was some other match in which TLO used blinking very well but DrunkBobby was epic. Thanks for the link.

[Taskmage]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

That was epic but it actually wasn't TLO, if we're thinking of the same game.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pETcAm82vXU"]YouTube- ‪HD Starcraft 2 IdrA v DrunkBobby p1/1‬‎[/nomedia]

[Aeni]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Are you even playing?

This game is pretty ridiculous. The challenges are plainly RETARDED. Stalkers are NOT counters to Hellions. Nothing ground is going to be a counter for Hellions, ESPECIALLY Stalkers, since their blink ability causes them to clump together allowing the Hellion's attacks to be more effective. Carriers are NOT counters to Thors, they're not really counters to anything. Void Rays would be the preferred counter if you're playing Protoss.

I tried using the zealots in the challenge, their AI was horrible. Terrible. They, literally, ran around the Marauders doing NOTHING but running. So useless. So fucking useless.

You blink the "red" colored units to the rear There was a neat match in which TLO beat his opponent on pure micromanaging, down to blinking away near dead units.

---------- Post added at 03:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:09 PM ----------

I have the gold medal on all 9 challenges. The only problem I had was thors vs carriers. That said, I don't remember using stalkers vs hellions. I remember using colossi behind force fields.

As for counters, you make it sound like paper/rock/scissors. If I have roaches, your zealots will die IF I micro them away from you. If I let them sit, zealots technically aren't the best solution by-cost but it's still damn close. If a zerg player throws up a spire and I'm protoss, I cannot instantly have a squad of phoenixes to eat the mutalisks that can and will pop out in droves. Phoenixes may be the perfect anti-muta, but damnit, I'll use my sentries/stalkers. I was probably going Templar tech anyway. Psi storm isn't as effective vs mutas as it was in BW but I'll try. And I'll make archons as they run out of energy -- despite them being a lot weaker than in BW, as well. This game isn't won by having the absolute perfect counter to every situation. You try your best to have as many of the right units as you can. The rest is scrapping.

You're correct. Basically having a good mix of covering your weaknesses and exploiting your opponent's weakness is the way to go. I don't go for hard counters. Instead, I try to keep a mobile defense that can be converted into a decent counteroffense on the fly. Having a maze of pylon as an obstacle to my mineral lines is also something I've learn to adapt to and helps to "buy" some time for recovery. I think while being the first to draw blood will usually swing a momentum to that side, it's how hard you can counterattack which usually ends the game in favor of the other side. I've been in some 2v3 matches (with someone leaving right at the beginning) and macro harder than some of my zerg oppponents in order to churn out units faster than the other base can swallow them.

Edit:

My composition normally includes a healthy ratio of 1:1 stalkers and zealots and then a few of each of sentries, immortals and colossi. Depending on what I'm dealing with, once the initial "jab" is thrown at me and I successfully survive that, I'll use what I have and then build upon what more I need. In the case of multiplayer, though, I tend to macro hard, going for a fast zealot first (it's not defense for my own base) and then rapidly converting into a macro game for the next 10 minutes. Once I have 6 gateways, 2 factories, 2 expos up, I dot the map with pylons in crucial chokepoints and tend to either rapidly respond to an advancement or be able to get a massive counterattack in just seconds and hit at expos to dry their resources up. Usually the worst choices any player can make is waiting for too long to get an expansion. For every minute you wait to expand beyond a comfortable point in the game, the further you fall behind your opponent two-fold.