So... Starcraft 2?

[Aeni]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Phoenix are air-to-air, right?

They have an ability to lift ground units to the air and destroy them that way, but yes, they are primarily AA units, much like Banshees are strictly AG units (Air to Ground)

So I skimmed some of the lively discussion and seems to be some heated words surrounding Reapers. Reapers are invaluable for harassment and distraction. For example, if you can build up a nice sizeable force of at least 8 reapers and keep them somewhere in the back of your opponent's base and them move your army out, you could possibly buy your army enough time by throwing in the reapers up to the mineral lines thus forcing your opponent to have to tear his frontline defense and focus his attention there. Hit and run, guerilla tactics, and then the army can go storming in the front. You can do this with a Thor-Dropship move as well and also Tank-Dropship across a ravine for other types of harassment. The goal here is to cause distraction and split your opponents attention into 3 parts - economy, harassment and frontline defense. You have an edge through FOW unless you aren't very good a multitasking. Remember, they can do that to you, too, so static defenses (or investing too heavily) means less mobility which opens yourself up to vulnerabilities all along your perimeters as well as your expansion.

For 2v2+ types of scenario, choke points are not in your base, but towards the center of the map. Those of you who are veterans of War Song Gulch BG (WoW PvP) know of the importance of controlling midfield. In SC2, this concept is no different and thus require tremendous coodination and communication in order to be successful. I find random teams to be difficult to engage in this manner primarily due to the lack of coordination, planning and communication.

I play primarily as 'Toss and usually go with a 2 gate push on Zeals against Zergs (force them to put out a spawning pool ahead of a 2nd hatch which throws their game off) and usually go for a more standard 6 gate/2 robo heavy ground force against Terrans and other' Toss. If you can't cheese me to death in the first 7-8 minutes then it's usually GG when an 80 supply army comes for milk and honey at your doorstep with 40 supplies worth strewing out every 80-90sec.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Phoenix are air-to-air, right?

[MrMageo]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Ya tanks are pretty strong. But against some units the are very weak in siege mode. Immortals and Roaches for example. They take less damage from a tank in siege mode. If you can get them in close to draw fire or force them to unsiege then move the rest of your force in. This is much easier for roaches to do, since they can burrow and move.

I find terran has just a great mix of units. People would say they are OP but I think the composition is just that good. Toss also have a decent grouping zealots and stalkers work well with everything just like rines and rauders. Zerg however fall behind in composition, however they make it up with sheer blobability. Since they can rebuild units so fast they can whittle the other two down.

Personally I love early push with 5-6 marines, 3-4 rauders and 2 tanks with either a raven and a medivac, or just a raven. Lets me post up just about anywhere on the map and hold out until I get my final force together.

The thing about tanks is early on the are costly, if you scout an early factory with tech you can assume they are going tanks, if they are then you can get a couple mutas, or phoenixes to blow them up.

Which is the only draw back to terran. They have such a large diversity, and a mix unit comp gives you the best resaults the only thing is you have a slightly delayed force to push with by comparison.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I hate how siege tanks are the hard counter for every single other ground unit in the game. Granted, they're particularly vulnerable from attacks from the air, but so are Marauders and they're not exactly a hard counter for anything, except maybe zerglings. I was Zerg, and going hydras, and siege tanks completely ruined my attack. Granted, my opponent had a very effective set-up. The only entrance to their bases was surrounded with siege tanks on cliffs and at the back of the entrance, with an observer clearing the fog of war for them.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Can't take the constant split decisions?

I look at an RTS like a much more complicated game of Tetris, just with more than one player :D

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Blizzard deleting 'inappropriate' StarCraft 2 user maps- Destructoid

Sad to report, but no more penis maps. Blizzard will have words with you for having them.

No word on vagina maps yet.

I wish I could actually get into Starcraft, but it seems a bit too hectic for me.

[MrMageo]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

just hit 1st in my division go me.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/...0#current-rank

apparently as i was posting someone else one. So now I am number 2 again boourns.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Haven't checked Husky yet but I was already subscribed to HDSC.

[Aeni]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Just wanted to check in here. We might start a clan with the next patch and I'll see if any of you are interested in joining. Anyway, wanted to make several points and remarks.

1. As for no LAN support, Blizzard has already said that it may get introduced in a major patch in the future, but for now, they want to see how well BNET will serve their online needs and if there was LAN support from the get go, hardly anyone would be on BNET. This will most likely make the online portion of the game lackluster and create all sorts of PR/marketing issues for them. Just give them some time and see where things go. For the most part, you don't need LAN and not sure why? In this day and age, with WiFi and tethering to unlimited data plan smart phones, who requires LAN anyway? There are LAN centers all over the place if social gaming is what you're looking for.

2. There is a mode in single player called the challenge mode. I advise new players to check it out. If you pop the help menu in these scenarios, you learn invaluable information regarding what units work better against others or are weak against. This can help you devise strategies and improve your APM (actions per minute) which is crucial for multiplayer matches. The new coop mode against AI is also fun and with a few friends and a casual afternoon (there's an in-game vent as well) you can have a great time.

3. HDStarcraft and HuskyStarcraft both have Youtube channels that you should check out. Day 9's link I've already listed in this thread (first page) The only way you can get better at the game is to practice and also watch what other players are doing. This game is unique because no matter how good you are, you can never master the game, because there's always room for improvements, no matter how marginal that increment may be.

4. There's a secret mission you can unlock in single player but you MUST NOT have started the last mission (Char) or have completed it. If either is applicable, either load a previously saved point before Char or start a new campaign. Where you need to be is in Media Blitz (mission on Korhal) I won't give away spoilers but you can replay this on casual if you want to just get it done. Google up the specific strats if you need more information.

[MrMageo]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Christ on a bun, that actually makes Nukes and DT viable vs Zerg... and it's about time. I always fucking hated how Cloaked units were basically useless against Zerg in SC1. Looks like they can't build Spore towers anymore either (I think) for AA + Detection... damn.

They are called Spore Crawlers and can detect. They are available after build an evo chamber. (Spore and Spine Crawlers Colonies are also mobile now, and can be moved anywhere there is creep.)

As far as zerg anti detection is concerned unfortunately by the time you can field DT or Ghost (or banshee) Zerg can most likely have overseers (overlord upgrade) however zerg players must now choose to do this because overseers do not have the same abilities as an overlord.

Honestly I was semi pissed about losing Medics & Bats, but since Zerg can't auto-detect off the bat anymore, that seems like a fair trade. What have the Protos lost with regards to their early game, other than Cannons being weaker now? (Or so I've read) Also holy shit @ Chrono Boost damn... that's cheap man, get an early gate and Chrono Boost fast Zealots... yeesh.

I was also pissed. But then I found the cheap and expendable hellion. As well as the huge mobility medivacs provide.

Hellion are like a vulture + firebat mix that have speed and the flame thrower with upgrade can be devestating. You can get 2-3 an just burn into a worker line and 1 shot the entire line with the upgrade.

Medivacs are medic drop ships. Excellent for taking small strike forces (or big ones) right to the enemy base. Allows for a perma stim on all units pretty near. This is also awesome for Ghost drops. Find a dark corner drop acouple ghosts and nuke some tech and production buildings. If you are lucky you can melt workers but most of the time armies and workers get moved.

Cool thing with medivacs are the ability to heal team mates bio units. (any zerg and some toss stuff). This is really useful to mix in with a partners muta or broodlord forces.

Quote:
Because of the power and flexibility of nydus worms, OL drops are
less common in SC2 than SC1. Unlike with OLs, units do not die if
the Nydus is destroyed, and if an attack is failing then you can
always retreat your units into the Nydus if it is still alive.

* Nydus can hold an infinite number of units. You can even rally
units from your hatches into your Nydus.
On top of being able to set them up anywhere you have a LoS... that's just crazy. The potential for decoys and just fucking with your opponent's mind in general in SC2 is crazy...

They can be very very powerful. If allowed to pop. They are however very weak and spit out about 2 units a second. So if they do go up then you have to hope they last long enough to move your army. Should both ends get destroyed your army is lost.

The OL drop still can be favorable because it lets you also drop creep. Which gives Zerg units an advantage. Not only can you move faster but you can also build some spine crawlers and secure a foothold right in the enemy base.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Yeah Queens are freaking insane in SC2 wow...


I just found out that Overlords NO LONGER DETECT CLOAKING BY DEFAULT! HOLY SHIT! That is a hell of a nerf to Zerg, as according to the FAQ I'm reading (I don't know what all the changes from SC1 are yet) they are apparently expensive and need to be individually upgraded....


Christ on a bun, that actually makes Nukes and DT viable vs Zerg... and it's about time. I always fucking hated how Cloaked units were basically useless against Zerg in SC1. Looks like they can't build Spore towers anymore either (I think) for AA + Detection... damn.

Dropping nukes was always my favorite thing to do in SC1. Attack the front door with a diversionary force and use Micro to keep the opponent chasing my forces while the Ghost sneaks in and obliterates the workers. Shit, I really want SC2 now!

Honestly I was semi pissed about losing Medics & Bats, but since Zerg can't auto-detect off the bat anymore, that seems like a fair trade. What have the Protos lost with regards to their early game, other than Cannons being weaker now? (Or so I've read) Also holy shit @ Chrono Boost damn... that's cheap man, get an early gate and Chrono Boost fast Zealots... yeesh.

EDIT: Just read this in the FAQ I'm reading, and now I'm truly scared of the Zerg...

Because of the power and flexibility of nydus worms, OL drops are
less common in SC2 than SC1. Unlike with OLs, units do not die if
the Nydus is destroyed, and if an attack is failing then you can
always retreat your units into the Nydus if it is still alive.

* Nydus can hold an infinite number of units. You can even rally
units from your hatches into your Nydus.

On top of being able to set them up anywhere you have a LoS... that's just crazy. The potential for decoys and just fucking with your opponent's mind in general in SC2 is crazy...

[Lmnop]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

As outlined above, the opportunity cost of going reapers is higher than any other early tier unit. You lose out on 2 marines and half of an upgrade's worth of vespene just for a single Reaper. They're definitely still cool, but they really are risky. And, while it's true they're a rush strat, you can modify it to a timing where it's still useful to send 1 reaper over and punish an opponent for not being prepared (especially if you scout a really really fast expand) and NOT destroy your own economy by doing so (unlike 6-pooling where you just leave the game if it fails) as well as having the tech lab ready to pump the ever-loved marauders.

Which brings me back to: don't use strats that rely on reapers unless you really know what you're doing.

About zerg -- I think it's worth keeping in mind this little Brood War era comparison:
-If Terran has 6 factories and 4 barracks, you can produce 6 tanks and 4 marauders at a time.
That's 10 total production facilities.
-If Zerg has 10 hatcheries, you can produce 10-30 roaches at a time. or mutalisks. Or double that number of zerglings.
10 Production facilities which can produce whatever unit you want makes for an army that can constantly change its composition. Add this to the simultaneous unit production (larvae) and you have a frightening ability to surprise and overwhelm. What's changed in SC2? Spawn larvae makes each of those hatcheries way better. If you stockpile larva, it's possible to go from complete army decimation to 200/200 in one round of production.

And this is why I have so many problems listening to any crybabies who think Z is underpowered.

(yes, their hatcheries are still 300/pop)

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

The investment in Reapers will definitely set you back, and, most importantly, you HAVE to know when to abandon it and change tactics. That's extremely important at all times, during every game. If you have intel on an enemy that suggests you're producing disadvantaged units you need to switch things up.

I don't see why you're pointing that out as it applies to any and every unit/strategy. All I'm saying is don't hate on Reapers, they are awesome for early harassment and can be a game-winner at times. Though I'll admit, given the choice, I'd rather have Medics back and even firebats; Zerglings are only a viable threat vs Terran again because Blizzard took out bats. Yeah you can make Helions now but they're higher tech and I'm fairly sure cost more.

Played some rounds of SC1 against the AI today and I'd forgotten just how insanely frustrating it is when the enemy spams Marines Bats & Medics, God damn.


I HATE Random Pick ups... my True Skill in Halo Wars took a dive from 37 to 33 because of constantly being paired up with retards in 3 v 3 unarranged. As such I only ever do 2v2 and 3v3 teams when friends are online, I'm done trying to tough it out with idiots who can't even counter properly.


As for rebuilding, it helps that Zerg are pretty cheap... Are hatcheries still 300 minerals in SC2? The Queen's spawn larvae ability is freaking awesome for ramping up production.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

The investment in Reapers will definitely set you back, and, most importantly, you HAVE to know when to abandon it and change tactics. That's extremely important at all times, during every game. If you have intel on an enemy that suggests you're producing disadvantaged units you need to switch things up.

I'm having a lot of trouble with my game. It seems like the only people I do well against quit prematurely, regardless of whether or not they can rebuild. My friend has demonstrated to me several times how easily Zerg can rebuild. He's won several games 2v1 after I've been taken out as Zerg. I recently did the same in some random 3v3. My teammates were decent, and we managed to take out two of the opposing team, but the third went Void Rays and none of us had anti-air. I was able to rebuild, and on the third rebuild I pumped out hydras and took him down.

Random pick-ups are terrible.

[MrMageo]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

It is situational and flukey, just like a 6 pool rush. Just like a canon rush. It is an all in essentially. Ya you can get lucky and ya there are good maps for it (lost temple and metolopolis are a couple). But most of the time you will get scouted and most of the time you will not have a chance to deal eco damage. Sure you can pick off a couple, but in the end the majority of the time the amount of minerals and GAS you dump in to pick of several workers or units, could better be spent on your own workers or units.

There are times when you can make it work good, there are times when you can't. It is as strong as any other rush, and most of the time a good player will counter it.