TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

[Karinya]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

Sorry but I totally disagree. I don't see any good reason why a group of melee shouldn't be able to go out and get decent EXP without any mages (with magic users being there to optimize the EXP as opposed to being required to facilitate it.) Maybe I'm just too big of a fan of classic, offline RPGs but I don't like the concept of requiring a specific job just to earn experience (barring unique enemies like puddings and slimes).

WHM, RDM, BLU, SCH, SMN, DNC, or PUP/DNC is "a specific job"? That's over a third of the jobs in the game, including three of the most popular.

I'm not aware of any offline RPGs where a party with no magic users in it works well, outside of specific areas like the no-magic dungeon in FFIX. The idea of trying to go through something like Xenosaga (any ep), SO:TET or Persona: DDS without using magic is just funny.

Anyway... have you not been paying attention to the last 3 years of this game? The more DDs you can get into a party, the faster you kill stuff and the faster you get exp, if it doesn't kill you or give you huge downtime. If all-DD parties are possible at all they will insanely dominate over all other parties because they have more DDs in them.

That's why balanced parties were enforced with a sledgehammer - it was the only way to get non-DDs into parties at all, since they contributed so little to the kill speed.

(The alternative is WoW's approach: everything is a DD. No, really, I mean everything. Even the game's supposedly primary healing class is actually a half-healer, half-nuker hybrid.)

[Raydeus]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

I vote for RDM getting A+ GS skill while being able to use a shield at the same time.

[Vyuru]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

Because decent is in the eye of the beholder. Very few people are going to settle for a 4k/hr exp party when they can get an 8k/hr or 12k/hr or 20k/hr party.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

and adding more camps filled with weaker mobs,

I really need to bookmark that page with S-E saying that they actually thought ToAU mobs would actually be more difficult than the norm for the time. So I can quickly cite it in the future.

[Armando]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

I really need to bookmark that page with S-E saying that they actually thought ToAU mobs would actually be more difficult than the norm for the time. So I can quickly cite it in the future.

To be fair, a lot of them are. The problem is distribution; we'd be fucked if we had to level off of Soulflayers. But we don't, because there's imps and colibri everywhere.

[Lmnop]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

I imagine a 3x SAM/dnc, 3x more-melee party could kill Greater Colibri for decent exp. >.>

[Ziero]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

Forgot all about this thread till I saw it at the top earlier >_>

It'll still hit the WAR for less. You can't bring up Arhat's gear as a plus for NIN/SAM/MNK and then backpedal and say "the mob will still hit like a truck so Defender isn't a plus."That's not a plus because in any situation where it would matter, there's going to be someone stunning those things either way.

yea, I'm not talking exclusively about HNMs/IT+++ though, you were the one who first brought it up. Though to be fair, Arhat's gear will still be more useful for reducing Dmg then War Def or Shield skill.

You make it sound like Sentinel and Rampart actually gave lots of Def, and that they had good duration. Hint: the amount of Def they gave sucked, and it only stuck around for 30 secs. They just opted to take two near-useless buffs and revamp them rather than giving us more JAs with the same effect. Don't make it look like they needed to take the Def stuff we had and replace it with something useful, because that's not what happened at all. Absorbing physical damage wasn't Utsusemi's only advantage. It'll stop magic too, and that's why we were given Rampart and Fealty.

Regardless of how much Def they gave, the fact still remains that too much Def becomes a waste very quickly. If the Def they gave was useful, they could have just increased their duration. Instead they had to completely revamp the abilities from the ground up.

No, it only mitigates damage in a situation where there's no way for you to time the spell at all. Few people bank on Shield Mastery kicking in to get spells off.

Which can happen *very* frequently. Fast attacking mobs, multi-attacking mobs, and multiple mobs are all regular occurances in this game and all of them can wreak havoc on spell timing. Few people may "bank" on it, but that doesn't mean it's not immensely helpful.

Those things aren't threats. I'm talking about stuff that aren't "smaller things."

And I'm talking about everything in the game in general. As you said yourself, not getting hit is the best defense in this game, and every melee job has some way to avoid/negate dmg except War, who can do nothing but reduce it with a single ability that for all intensive purposes becomes less useful the higher you get. Stacking and piling as much Def as possible does *not* cause a significant drop in damage taken, especially at higher levels when DD gear provides ample amounts of Def. And all my examples of Drk being able to avoid and survive attacks better then a War are to show that a job who's sole focus is to do dmg have better damage reduction tools then a job that's *supposed* to be the most flexible melee class in game. A Drk/Nin can solo a campaign mob a hell of a lot better then a War/Nin can, because a Drk can use his best natural offense while using a strong defense gained from the sub and suppliment that defense with natural damage negating/avoiding abilities. With War/Nin, once shadows goes down, they have nothing but Defense, and when mobs have excessively high Dmg ratings, that pure Defense just won't cut it.

Darksteel Harness Set, Askar Gambieras, Acheron Shield. SAM/NIN/MNK aren't the only ones with access to damage reduction gear.

I never said Sam/Mnk/Nin were the only ones with Dmg reduction gear, I said that the Arhat's gear negates any advantages a War has with it's "heavy plate" (which I can only think of two sets a War can use that Drk can't). And on top of that, Sam/Nin/Drk can use all the Darksteel Harness gear as well so even that's not an advantage for War.

The "Defense does nothing" argument leads only to the conclusion that the only jobs that have ANY damage mitigation tools at all are NIN, WHM, RDM, SMN, THF (2-hour) and maybe PLD and BLM if you count Flash and Blind. After all, those are the only jobs that have any tools to avoid damage altogether. Everyone else is stuck actually taking damage, and thus being completely ineffective because the important mobs hit them for "too much" damage.

All the jobs you mentioned are all able to solo mobs FAR better then War due to their natural defensive abilities. And Thf, without the use of a 2 hour, is going to take a HELL of a lot less hits then a War on anything not IT+++. Thf can /a an EP/DC mob, go afk for 5 minutes, come back and barely be in yellow. A War will be riding the recast timers of whatever defenses his sub provides, against the same monsters, because he will be getting the crap kicked out of him. Though War may kill it faster, Thf will have a much easier time with it. And FYI, it's not because of Def.

BLM soloing wouldn't even be that risky if you took the kind of damage a WAR or PLD does when caught with shadows/buffs down. And WAR gets access to some of the best defensive gear throughout a wide range of levels. And defense bonuses. etc.

Blm Solo well because they don't get hit, if a mob gets through shadows/stoneskin, a Blm can stun, sleep, reapply, rest, go to the bathroom, get a spot of tea, come back and blow away the mob. And Drk gets access to most of the same Def gear a War does, can reach the same levels of Def a war does, but isn't considered a tank like war why? It's certainly not because of the (lol)def bonus.

The claim that DRK can take damage better than a WAR is absurd on its face. A DRK/BLM fighting skillup mobs can be raped faster than a much higher level healer can keep them alive, even with proper armor and tools like Drain and Stun. I wouldn't want to hold hate on anything without a WAR (Defense Bonus, Defender), WHM (Stoneskin, Blink, Regen, Cure), or NIN (Utsusemi) sub, and even then not for very long.

I never said Drk can take hits better, I said they can negate hits better. A Drk has more tools to suppliment their survival then a War does when combined with a proper Sub. And who the hell uses Drk/Blm?

Speaking of which, a friend and I were arguing over whether or not Haubergeon is chain or plate. I say it's plate (look at the shoulders for crying out loud) and as such NIN should seriously be removed from it in favor of DRG. Not because I like DRG better over NIN, but because it just doesn't make a lick of sense for Ninja to wear such heavy armor.

It's chainmail.

So what? That's how it should be. Doesn't matter how tough a piece of leather may be it's not going to match a plate.

Dusk gear has more Def then Adaman...because Dusk gear is made from Behemoth Leather...which is supposed to be strong. Unicorn gear has some of the best pure Def in game...because it's made from Unicorn Bone...which is supposed to be strong. But outside of certain examples, Platemail has more Def then leather gear. But some leather, well it's just tough. Still doesn't keep War alive better though.

I really need to bookmark that page with S-E saying that they actually thought ToAU mobs would actually be more difficult than the norm for the time. So I can quickly cite it in the future.

Seriously, most mobs in ToAU ARE harder then previous areas. It's just that the weaker mobs are much weaker. The weak mobs were made to exp on while the tough mobs are there to remind us that things can still kick our asses.

[Malacite]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

Thank god there are no bunnies in ToAU.

[Ziero]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

Actually PW's final and true form is a bunny.

[Lmnop]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

Seriously, most mobs in ToAU ARE harder then previous areas. It's just that the weaker mobs are much weaker. The weak mobs were made to exp on while the tough mobs are there to remind us that things can still kick our asses.

Not that this at all resembled a good idea.

Smart S-E employee comes up with Qutrub concept.

2 less intelligent employees come up with imps and colibri.

A third says "let's go through and start cutting HP off of most of these mobs."

Qutrub never get touched by players.

[Ziero]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

Yup, because SE totally didn't want people who were building EXP pts around mobs who die fast to exp on mobs who die fast?

Qutrub are there to provide a challenge when people have to deal with things Qutrub related. Colibri are there to provide easy and quick EXP to everyone playing this game. Except Blm. They got Flans.

And Imps SUCK for Exp unless they're low VT-T. IT Imps beat the snot out of people.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

The weak mobs were made to exp on while the tough mobs are there to remind us that things can still kick our asses.

I still don't get where you form this conclusion from.

I think they just keep forgetting that most of the players are tremendous pussies and by the time they realized how popular and gimped imps and colibri were, they realized that if the backlash over RNG was bad that the backlash over making colibri and imps more difficult would have been worse.

WotG mobs were designed to remind you there was shit that could still kick your ass since after missions, quests and a light smattering of endgame content, campaign is the only draw for most players. Most of them, anyway, the remaining players find quite a bit in terms of solo and PT camps.

[Callisto]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

And Imps SUCK for Exp unless they're low VT-T. IT Imps beat the snot out of people.

I'll attest to this, while they're as squisy as Colibri, noone ever seems to remember that an IT Imp actually hits like a fucking truck on top of the nukes.

[Ziero]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

...or they intentionally created low defense, high offense, quick repoping mobs to mimic the fact people were exploiting Weapons, Bones and Dhamel camps...all high offense, low defense mobs...to gain the fastest EXP on. SE *knows* that the mobs in ToAU are weak, hell they even gave Sanction and Exp bonus, refesh and increased meal duration to help people EXP there.

But WotG, which created a system where any job can "solo" 10k an hour from 60+, didn't need to offer those super squishy mobs to burn on. SE wants people to merit and Exp in ToAU zones, on super squishy mobs, and do other stuff in other zones. Yes WotG has "nothing but Campaign" in terms of Exp...but Campaign is a huge benefit to everyone who wants and needs Exp.

CoP didn't offer any real super merit spots, Sky and Krt were still two of the best zones for quick melee Exp. But they were also easily overcrowded with just 2 parties. ToAU brought TP burns to every melee and most support jobs and WotG brough solo Exp to every job. And while WotG currently only has " missions, quests and a light smattering of endgame content", all ToAU had at this point were Assaults, Besieged and Merit camps.

[Armando]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

yea, I'm not talking exclusively about HNMs/IT+++ though, you were the one who first brought it up. Though to be fair, Arhat's gear will still be more useful for reducing Dmg then War Def or Shield skill.

No, because the WAR has damage reduction gear ON TOP OF Def and Shield Skill.

Regardless of how much Def they gave, the fact still remains that too much Def becomes a waste very quickly. If the Def they gave was useful, they could have just increased their duration. Instead they had to completely revamp the abilities from the ground up.

Stop tying unrelated things together. Stop using Sentinel or Rampart as arguments for Defense not working because they're not related. Stop pretending you know what the Dev team was thinking when they changed the effects on Sentinel and Rampart because you don't.

I never said Sam/Mnk/Nin were the only ones with Dmg reduction gear, I said that the Arhat's gear negates any advantages a War has with it's "heavy plate" (which I can only think of two sets a War can use that Drk can't). And on top of that, Sam/Nin/Drk can use all the Darksteel Harness gear as well so even that's not an advantage for War.

It doesn't matter that it's not an advantage to WAR, that's a moot point you're making. Arhat's is not an advantage to SAM/MNK/NIN. That's the important point. You can't bring up "but these DDs have damage reduction gear" as if WAR didn't. They both have access to damage reduction gear so it's a point that shouldn't have been brought up in the first place.

All the jobs you mentioned are all able to solo mobs FAR better then War due to their natural defensive abilities.

No. Again, stop doing non-sequiturs. WHM and SMN do not have better natural defensive abilities than WAR. Their defensive abilities are shit. Moreover, bad soloability does not imply bad defensive abilities. PLD can't find a DC mob and go AFK for 5 minutes.

When you're getting smacked hard, a WAR lives longer than a THF. When Evasion fails, a WAR lives longer than a THF. Being able to solo T or VT better than some other job does not imply that you have better defensive abilities, it implies you have better solo abilities. Keep them separate, because they are separate notions. A RDM will never take hits like a PLD, yet a RDM can solo EP and DC much better.

This discussion is getting old quick.

~~~~~

I'll attest to this, while they're as squisy as Colibri, noone ever seems to remember that an IT Imp actually hits like a fucking truck on top of the nukes.

While there's nothing untrue about this, that's generally because people are fucking stupid and don't just settle for ITs, they settle for shit that's 4-5 levels over IT level. It's the same stupid logic we've done with crabs for ages. "Oh, they don't hit as hard as other mobs so it's ok to move to this camp 3 levels too early, our tank can take it."

I think the main problem (besides the incredibly large number and availability of these mobs) is Colibri and Imps' TP moves. They use TP, nobody gives a fuck. You get Silenced, that gets -na'd. You get Amnesia'd, carry on autoattacking. You get your TP erased, that's too bad. You get Pecking Flurried, that didn't hurt too much.

You pull a fly and everyone eats multiple 300 damage Cursed Spheres. You pull a Spider or Eruca and your tank takes massive damage from Sickle Slash and Incinerate, while DDs might even get one-shotted. People care when these mobs use TP moves, even if it's not the end of the world. An Imp could use TP twenty times before dying and the party would carry on.