/RDM needed?

[Karinya]

Re: /RDM needed?

Nope. INT and MND have never made a drastic difference in resist rates. Moreover, they were beating on Lv.40 spiders and Vylia, the BST, had a Tulwar Scorpion for a pet when they tested Stoneskin. Tulwar Scorpions are Lv.53-56.
Enspell resist rates are supposed to be based on the caster's Enhancing Magic Skill. Vylia doesn't have any. That's the most likely reason. While this would strike you as odd, you do have to consider that some aspects of Enspell ARE calculated on-strike (for example, its base potency is determined at casting time but +Enspell Damage items are checked for on each strike.)

Day/weather bonuses are checked on each strike, too.

But if the spell "remembers" caster enhancing magic for calculating the base damage, why wouldn't that be applied to the resist rate calculation? It makes no sense, unless it's just a bug.

Because some things aren't set in stone based on the stats at the time of casting, it's very much possible that Vylia's non-existant Enhancing Magic Skill is being checked for Enspell accuracy when she hits.

Isn't that also the exact same thing that's rumored to happen to Rolling Thunder, making it effectively useless in nearly all situations?

There's a clear way to test this: have the SCH/RDM's partner sub SCH. (Their SCH needs to be at least level 10, but aside from that it doesn't matter if it's underleveled.) Look at resist rates without Arts or with Dark Arts (for a job with no native Enhancing, you'll have only the half-leveled D) and then look at them again with Light Arts giving the X/SCH a B Enhancing. If the recipient's skill is a factor, the difference should be huge and obvious. (Isn't it neat to be able to instantly change someone's skill by hundreds of points without going back to change subjobs or anything? Fittingly, SCH is going to help us learn more about game mechanics...) The same method would work for testing Rolling Thunder - one smn, one X/SCH - and spikes spells (both SCH/BLM's - if possible - and the SMN spikes bloodpacts).

If this *is* what's going on: SE, please change Enspell effects to lock in enhancing magic skill at time of casting (for RT, Ramuh's enhancing magic skill should be based on his level or set equal to the summoner's summoning magic skill). Stoneskin, Blink and Phalanx aren't penalized for being cast on targets without enhancing magic of their own; there's no reason enspells or spikes should be. The jobs that can put those effects on other people are both jobs that could really use some rare and useful tricks in order to find a place that would make people think "I want a SCH for this fight" (or SMN), and keep them from being imitation WHMs.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: /RDM needed?

bleh, forgot

Can't really think of many KSNMs where a Dispelga would be needed, that being the case.

[Icemage]

Re: /RDM needed?

Any of the BCNM60s with beastmen that come pre-buffed would be one case I could think of.

Dispel is level 32, so you couldn't cast it off of a /RDM sub at level 60 cap...


Icemage

[Sabaron]

Re: /RDM needed?

I just attempted to do calculations based on recipient's Magic Accuracy, but I cannot find a site that relates MAcc to the resistance grades. I know that I have seen a correlation but I cannot remember where. Does anyone know where I can find an article containing an experiment wherein the tester correlates resistances with skill or MAcc?

I might be hallucinating, but I'm sure I remember seeing something like this.

If MAcc plays a role, then what is needed to push the damage up is a Threnody, Ninja Wheel, or Ancient Magic attack. A combination of two of those would be quite useful. This is compounded by the notion that the mob could also be weak to your element. For instance, while fighting Ice-vulnerable Spider, a NIN BRD SCH center could use this combination:

SCH: Enblizzaga
NIN: Huton: Ni
BRD: Ice Threnody

to minimize resistance to the attack.

I'll see if I can get a group to go and test this on an Attercop or something when I XP next. Provided we end up with a SCH healer. SCH is unpopular as a healer because they lack Haste and Refresh, but we'll see if I get one in my next XP pt. I'm currently in Puk land which is a bit bad because Puks absorb wind magic (e.g. Huton), but at least I can stick the Threnody and we can probably pull an Attercop (right before we take a {Short Time} {Break} so the Slowga can wear off...

[Armando]

Re: /RDM needed?

Therefore, what is happening is that her associate has low INT or MND (whichever is used) and the spell is using the differential between her and the mob to calculate the spell resistance which makes sense.

Nope. INT and MND have never made a drastic difference in resist rates. Moreover, they were beating on Lv.40 spiders and Vylia, the BST, had a Tulwar Scorpion for a pet when they tested Stoneskin. Tulwar Scorpions are Lv.53-56.

Enspell resist rates are supposed to be based on the caster's Enhancing Magic Skill. Vylia doesn't have any. That's the most likely reason. While this would strike you as odd, you do have to consider that some aspects of Enspell ARE calculated on-strike (for example, its base potency is determined at casting time but +Enspell Damage items are checked for on each strike.) Because some things aren't set in stone based on the stats at the time of casting, it's very much possible that Vylia's non-existant Enhancing Magic Skill is being checked for Enspell accuracy when she hits.

[Gobo]

Re: /RDM needed?

Was just giving the basic idea. Using just any enspell with Accession would only result in 1 damage Enspell for the part members. Using the Mobs elemental weakness will result in the 1/2 resists/partial resist damage.

I can tell you now, Rolling Thunder does jack crap, usually hitting for 1 unless the target has enhancing skill. However it doesn't disprove it isn't based off the SMNs Enhancing (or Ramuh's?) since it is from the subjob.

Thats the Enspell damage formula. I guess stats play a role in resists.

En-spell: Enhancing < 150: (SQRT(Enhancing) - 1) * (1 + day bonus + weather bonus)
Enhancing >= 150: (Enhancing/20 + 5) * (1 + day bonus + weather bonus)
Correct day = +0.1, Weather = +0.1 for each "dot"
Opposite day = -0.1, Weather = -0.1 for each "dot"

[Sabaron]

Re: /RDM needed?

Just to end the debate on using Accession:
....
Keep reading through the tread for more on Enspells, since its a bit more detailed on how it works. To really boil it down, the Enspells that are used with Accession need to be the target mobs elemental weakness or the party members will only hit for 1.

That's not quite what it says...

Enspells
This seems to be based of the recipient's stats, but our testing wasn't very .... scientific? On the spiders in the desert I was hitting consistantly for 17 extra damage with enblizzard. Vylia was hitting for mostly 8's but did occasionally (rarely) get a 15. I think the formula was too complicated for us so we didn't really do much with this. Sorry. D:.

It basically says, that they couldn't figure it out from the data. Basically, what is happening is that the target is getting 50% resists. If she was getting all 1's that would basically mean that it's based on the target's skill. It is clearly not as the maximum damage with 0 skill is 1 damage. Therefore, what is happening is that her associate has low INT or MND (whichever is used) and the spell is using the differential between her and the mob to calculate the spell resistance which makes sense. This evidence rules out power based on target skill, but strongly suggests attribute-differential resistance based on the wielder.

Occasional hits for 15 are 90% resists: 17 * 0.9 = 15.3 (or 15)
50% Resist: 17 * 0.5 = 8.5 (or 8)

The numbers hold up quite well.

I think a good test for the next run would be to use it on a Summoner subbing something without Enhancing magic skill. If it is based purely on stats, then the Summoner should have a damage output comparable to the Scholar. This might result into some interesting insight on how statistics play with Enspells in general.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: /RDM needed?

I would say this is near the top of the list. An 8-minute wait on Super Dispelga using two of my precious Stratagems...and I can't at this moment think of an instance where I'm up against multiple well-buffed enemies that would warrant such an expenditure.

Any of the BCNM60s with beastmen that come pre-buffed would be one case I could think of.

[Gobo]

Re: /RDM needed?

Just to end the debate on using Accession:

SCH casting Stoneskin with Accession on the party is Based off of the SCH's Enhancing/MND, not the targets.

Kohanacat's post, middle of the page for source. (Has Phalanx testing too)

Keep reading through the tread for more on Enspells, since its a bit more detailed on how it works. To really boil it down, the Enspells that are used with Accession need to be the target mobs elemental weakness or the party members will only hit for 1.


http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/vie...sd=a&start=510

[Sabaron]

Re: /RDM needed?

Nitpick ahead. Proceed with caution.

Accession + Dispel certainly wouldn't, but Manifestation + Dispel might.

I'll have to renitpick you because II didn't reference Manifestation. She just said "Dispelga" in reference to SCH which implies Accession.

Yes, yes... quite true. Wiki does say that Manifestation works with Dispel, but wiki doesn't say how... I don't think wiki knows yet. Of course in order to get Super Dispelga like that you need to wait 8 minutes to get two Stratagems--which is certainly not bad considering that it takes 10 to get a seal. Of course, of all the things I can think of being highly situational... I would say this is near the top of the list. An 8-minute wait on Super Dispelga using two of my precious Stratagems...and I can't at this moment think of an instance where I'm up against multiple well-buffed enemies that would warrant such an expenditure.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: /RDM needed?

Are you sure Accession + Dispel functions like that? Are you sure it doesn't just apply a normal one-spell Dispel to the targets?

Nitpick ahead. Proceed with caution.

Accession + Dispel certainly wouldn't, but Manifestation + Dispel might.

[Sabaron]

Re: /RDM needed?

...Wouldn't surprise me if Accession + en-spell actually uses caster's Enhancing Magic skill and targets' INTs both, or even if it uses caster's INT and targets' Enhancing Magic skill....

I can see the Target <> Mob INT differential as a possibility (similar to Charged Enspell weapons), I cannot really fathom the logic behind using the target's Enhancing Magic--that would make me so very, very angry. No other AoE spell buff in the game works that way. Yes, you assert that Cover may use some unusual formulae, and testing may indicate that a target's VIT affects a dance--we still don't have any precedent for a buff being affected by a target's skill. If we look at Phalanx for instance, say that I cast it fully decked out and get 25 damage reduction. Now, I take off all my +Enhancing and my damage reduction goes down to 23 which makes it pointless for me to even have the +Skill equipment.

Dispel-ga which stripes every blink/copy image, and everything dispel-able. On every critter in range.

*drools*

Dispel is 320 CE and 320 VE. Would Dispel-ga gain enmity based on number of effects erased per monster? Umm... Say, puller brings a WHM type with a THF link with 4 buffs each... That would be 1280 CE + 1280 VE... That's almost like using Provke x 2.8 at the start of the fight. With each monster. Except, half of the enmity won't fade unless the critters wacks the Scholar (quite) a few times...

Are you sure Accession + Dispel functions like that? Are you sure it doesn't just apply a normal one-spell Dispel to the targets?

[Neomage]

Re: /RDM needed?

Enspells can't be in a category of their own, and should behave like any other enhancing magic... they could test Phalnx II, Protects, Shells... Or even better, Barspellna, gies a definate number on youre status screen.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: /RDM needed?

We can actually test this on RDM. If I can finagle an Enhancing Torque I'll let you know what I find out.

You can? But, Accession is SCH40...

[Patchinko]

Re: /RDM needed?

Wouldn't surprise me if Accession + en-spell actually uses caster's Enhancing Magic skill and targets' INTs both, or even if it uses caster's INT and targets' Enhancing Magic skill.

We can actually test this on RDM. If I can finagle an Enhancing Torque I'll let you know what I find out.