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  • RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

    We all know RDM "could" tank well, if not better than a PLD on fights that extended over 5 minutes in length, due to the ability for RDM to cap CE faster, while maintaining high VE. Survivability through shadows and stoneskin and aquaveil and minus interupt.

    However after some pondering and research into certain things, (no hands on as of yet). /BLU is looking like a mighty fine option for tanking.

    1. Defense. (survuvability)
    A RDM/BLU can get more defense than a paladin, to the point where the pDif is nearly floored against most opponents, save the new baddest NM's. With Cocoon, the new High teirs of Phalanx (up to 34 damage reduced) Genbu shield, and that -pdt sword, we can come very close or cap at the -50% DMG taken mark.

    In addition to this we have stoneskin, and aquaveil as well as the ability to come close if not even still maintain a -102% (cap) interupt set. Also the reason I really got to thinking on this, we have Sabateur and Slow II which can essentially give us 6 minutes of up to 78% slow on a mob (slightly more if my hypothesis is correct in that slow over 50% is increased more so like haste). With a BRD we can easily double the delay of most mobs. Should there be additional RDM's around, Sabateur + Para II and Blind could prove even more useful.

    Sanguine Blade, the reason we use Sword + Shield over the traditional Estaff. This is an elemental WS which means it is highly accurate even naked, it also is boosted by our natural INT and MND stats, as well as MAB. With PDT gear readily available in many slots, a RDM can squeeze in ACC where applicable, and maintain a constant hit rate on the nm. Using this WS @ 300% netting upwards of 400 HP drained per use. This double whammy effect provides CE as well as a mana saving tool.

    2. Longevity
    A RDM tank was built on the fact it could last forever supporting itself. With Refresh II we essentially inherted a second convert, on a 7:30 timer. Add on some ballads/ and a Diablos favor we can easily break 15/MP tick refresh. This is even before we have to touch convert. Self healing RDM not only maintains hate but can do so for a long long time.

    3. Hate Control
    Sleep, Sleep II, Blind,Dispel meet Sheepsong, Sopoforic, Blank Gaze, MP Drainkiss, Stinking Gas, Geist Wall, Jettuara, while the MP required to cast goes up, the enmity production remains the same. Not only that but in some case (Jettuara) higher than some of the spells we could initially hold hate with. Head Butt is also highly useful due to the fact it is based off of our melee ACC and not magical ACC for the knock back portion which can and will interupt spells. The Stun on it however is flukey at best due to the effect being tied to Blue Magic Skill. The spells that build hate DO NOT have to land to be successful hate generating tools, they can be resisted and still provide enmity.

    While not a likely candidate for the job, it is a sound choice for fun, and makes a good case for a night without a PLD.

    I strongly feel that this is the RDM door back into tanking.

    sig courtesy tgm
    retired -08

  • #2
    Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

    Don't wanna throw sand in your vag or anything but the reason that PLD's subbed NIN was because raising enmity while mitigating damage is essential to MP conservation on behalf of the PLD and Mages, and helps the PLD keep hate in spite of spike hate from melee.

    RDM/NIN was the defacto for our job tanking because of the insane CE coupled with RDM Mag-Def and general tools we all are familiar with turned RDM into a Brick Wall with ICBMs.

    RDM/BLU blood tanking will be a huge MP sink, and subbed BLU spells, while only used for enmity and not actually hoping to land, would be a further waste of that MP. Refresh II and Composure are all well and good, and maybe I'm blowing wind out my asspipe right now, but I just know that BLU spells are a huge burden on MP.

    The only thing RDM/BLU would tank are NMs that are low-manned anyway, and it'd be a better time investment to get melees to beat on it with 2hr/Meditate and cure bomb.

    However, if your only friends are a WHM and a BRD, then by all means go for it.

    While not a likely candidate for the job, it is a sound choice for fun, and makes a good case for a night without a PLD.
    Yeah, exactly.
    The Tao of Ren
    FFXIV LowRes Benchmark - 5011

    If we don't like something, collectively, if our hatred for it throbs like an abscess beneath every thread, does that mean that they're doing something right?
    Originally posted by Kaeko
    As hard as it may be, don't take this game or your characters too seriously. I promise you - the guys that really own your account don't.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

      I don't know why you would even mention Convert in a topic about RDM blood tanking. You're not going to be Converting when you have no way to effectively stop several attacks in a row, even assuming you're not tanking something that is going to bypass shadows.

      Also, MP longevity on RDM when tanking is not an issue. Your primary enmity tools on RDM don't really use that much MP aside from Sleep II, and you're not going to be tanking without some outside sources of MP support anyhow.

      The real problem with RDM/BLU is that there's precious few things that it can tank at endgame. Anything that hits hard you'd rather have RDM/NIN for, so really you'd only opt for RDM/BLU in cases where you've got something which attacks very quickly for relatively low amounts of damage. I can't think of too many enemies that fit this criteria offhand. Also, getting hit for damage bleeds enmity like crazy.

      Now, in a small-group situation where you don't have access to other traditional tanks... sure, knock yourself out.


      Icemage

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      • #4
        Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

        Short version: RDM/BLU is still second rate RDM tank for the same reasons its always been second-rate to RDM/NIN.

        Gets hit bunches
        Still a risk to Covert if anything hits hard.
        Hemorrhages MP
        Better off on things that only tickle PLDs, but if you have a PLD you're SOL.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

          While not a likely candidate for the job, it is a sound choice for fun, and makes a good case for a night without a PLD.
          Reading is fun.

          Better off on things that only tickle PLDs, but if you have a PLD you're SOL.
          Care to elaborate please? Because I have a sneaky suspicion a RDM/BLU will take less damage than a PLD if geared properly, unless I missed an update about shield skill. Of course then again you could be refering to /NIN in which case I would have no idea, because you said PLD and that could mean /WAR, /RDM, or /NIN, or any other thing they have and feel like using at the time.
          Last edited by MrMageo; 09-12-2010, 06:08 AM.

          sig courtesy tgm
          retired -08

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

            Its a another way of saying you're no substitute for a PLD where a PLD is needed. That its just for fun, not for a serious LS function. You know, that conclusion that Wishmaster and Icemage agreed with, but you chose to insult them anyway?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

              no no I only insulted you. Wish and Ice both aknowledged the fact it was a situatonal thing, like I mentioned, however Ice is incorrect about his convert thing, but no point arguing semantics like that. You however come across as usual about knowing jack shit. With your macho ego paving a path of ignorance.... Ill ask again with the bolded part what you mean by it, and please do try and keep up.

              Better off on things that only tickle PLDs
              See that part right there, I just don't understand what you mean, are you saying a RDM/BLU with 700+ DEF -50% in PDT gear, and a 30+ damage reduction from phalanx, with 350 SS is squishy? More Squishy than a PLD with a 21 DMG phalanx, a defense of 600-700 -40% pdt and a shield isn't? Just wondering if I read that right. I could be wrong though. But looks to me like they are defensively equal with the RDM actually coming out on top slightly.

              So what you saying BBQ, that a PLD can take more hits than a RDM, or are you comparing it to PLD/NIN which everyone already knows is king shit.... please try and clarify, because Ive yet to see a PLD blood solo anything, and seen RDM/BLU do it many times, if they can take hits so well why is there no PLD/RDM solo's since convert was established?

              Again mate a little clarity, just what does this.

              Better off on things that only tickle PLDs
              Imply?

              sig courtesy tgm
              retired -08

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

                Using this WS @ 300% netting upwards of 400 HP drained per use.
                FYI you're better off using Sanguine Blade at 100% TP rather than saving to 300% TP.

                Also, kindly tone it down, there is no need to be throwing insults around.


                You have the right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be misqouted and then used against you.

                I don't have a big ego, it just has a large mouth.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

                  I only throw them at BBQ, in deserving nature. Due to his overall condesending nature on anything posted that doesn't fit is 2006 play bill, by anybody, ever since I started posting here. He has earned every bit of degrading tones, as much as I have. Not to mention his numerous erroneous comments made about pretty much everything pertaining to RDM, and the gull he has to argue till he is blue in the face, and spit his vile at anyone who disagrees with him.

                  For a reference how about searching the wonderful thread in which he name called about 15 people saying he was a poor COR and RNG for refusing to pull on those jobs.

                  Past niceties are given where they are due, and until some earn the respect of myself, I will respond to them on the level in the manner in which they have responded to myself and numerous others.


                  As for Sanguine I agree now its best used at 100% because a RDM should be able to easily use it for 600-700 on NM's. Pre ninja update though, when It was lucky for PLD's and BLU's to break 600 on IT mobs (meaning maybe a 300-400 on NM) I think 300 was the way to go as a means of chunky recovery. I did not learn about this ninja edit till last night when a BLU in abyssea used it for 960DMG, which means if a BLU can hit that high a RDM can hit higher, simply based on its mods.

                  sig courtesy tgm
                  retired -08

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

                    $sudo get popcorn
                    The Tao of Ren
                    FFXIV LowRes Benchmark - 5011

                    If we don't like something, collectively, if our hatred for it throbs like an abscess beneath every thread, does that mean that they're doing something right?
                    Originally posted by Kaeko
                    As hard as it may be, don't take this game or your characters too seriously. I promise you - the guys that really own your account don't.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

                      If you think RDM/BLU takes less damage than a reasonably well-geared PLD/NIN on pretty much... well... anything worthwhile... then you're sadly, sadly mistaken. Shield damage mitigation is much better than DEF damage mitigation against enemies that are higher level than you, since it's % based and not affected by comparative level.

                      That's not to say that RDM/BLU can't have reasonable DEF and damage-%, but unless you've got some really esoteric gear like a Defending Ring lying around, you're not coming anywhere close to what a Paladin can do for damage mitigation due to Shield Defense Bonus and Critical Defense Bonus - not to mention size 4 shields... and while we're talking about damage mitigation, let's not forget Aegis that Paladins have access to (with extreme difficulty, but it's probably the most common relic weapon alongside Gjallarhorn, all things considered). Also, it's 1000% more likely for a Paladin to have a Defending Ring than a Red Mage.

                      Otherwise, RDM/BLU even with fantastic gear is only roughly equivalent to a mediocre PLD/WAR with slightly better enmity tools. The rest of your utility abilities on RDM aren't anything to write home about when blood tanking; even defensive spells like Stoneskin are more or less impossible to cast while you're under attack. Half the reason why RDM/NIN is so good in comparison is because you can cast Stoneskin underneath your shadows to ensure that you don't get interrupted.

                      P.S. Lay off the personal attacks or I'll have to take more "official" notice of this topic. If you have beef with someone, take it to PMs.


                      Icemage

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

                        Originally posted by Icemage View Post
                        If you think RDM/BLU takes less damage than a reasonably well-geared PLD/NIN on pretty much... well... anything worthwhile... then you're sadly, sadly mistaken. Shield damage mitigation is much better than DEF damage mitigation against enemies that are higher level than you, since it's % based and not affected by comparative level.

                        That's not to say that RDM/BLU can't have reasonable DEF and damage-%, but unless you've got some really esoteric gear like a Defending Ring lying around, you're not coming anywhere close to what a Paladin can do for damage mitigation due to Shield Defense Bonus and Critical Defense Bonus - not to mention size 4 shields... and while we're talking about damage mitigation, let's not forget Aegis that Paladins have access to (with extreme difficulty, but it's probably the most common relic weapon alongside Gjallarhorn, all things considered). Also, it's 1000% more likely for a Paladin to have a Defending Ring than a Red Mage.

                        Otherwise, RDM/BLU even with fantastic gear is only roughly equivalent to a mediocre PLD/WAR with slightly better enmity tools. The rest of your utility abilities on RDM aren't anything to write home about when blood tanking; even defensive spells like Stoneskin are more or less impossible to cast while you're under attack. Half the reason why RDM/NIN is so good in comparison is because you can cast Stoneskin underneath your shadows to ensure that you don't get interrupted.

                        Icemage
                        How does endgame damage mitigation work btw?

                        My more recent experiences are from things like Campaign, and PLDs there are probably much more interested on doing dmg than in taking less themselves. But in that setting except for Aegis PLDs most PLDs would die against NMs I would survive without much troubles.

                        And before that Emnity WS was added not many could steal hate from me, much less maintain it.

                        So I kinda lost faith in PLD gameplay for regular stuff, and proof of that is my PLD is still 75 and will stay there for a very, very long time.



                        PS >
                        This is as /WAR /PLD and /DNC
                        sigpic
                        "In this world, the one who has the most fun is the winner!" C.B.
                        Prishe's Knight 2004-Forever.

                        その目だれの目。

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

                          Am I living in an alternate universe where RDM tanking can still be done with Sleep I/II, Bind, Blind and Dispel? Is this the universe where SE didn't nerf the enmity gain on those spells?

                          If I'm in that universe, let me know so that we can actually have a discussion about viable RDM tanking during end-game environments.
                          The Tao of Ren
                          FFXIV LowRes Benchmark - 5011

                          If we don't like something, collectively, if our hatred for it throbs like an abscess beneath every thread, does that mean that they're doing something right?
                          Originally posted by Kaeko
                          As hard as it may be, don't take this game or your characters too seriously. I promise you - the guys that really own your account don't.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

                            Originally posted by Raydeus View Post
                            How does endgame damage mitigation work btw?

                            My more recent experiences are from things like Campaign, and PLDs there are probably much more interested on doing dmg than in taking less themselves. But in that setting except for Aegis PLDs most PLDs would die against NMs I would survive without much troubles.

                            And before that Emnity WS was added not many could steal hate from me, much less maintain it.

                            So I kinda lost faith in PLD gameplay for regular stuff, and proof of that is my PLD is still 75 and will stay there for a very, very long time.



                            PS >
                            This is as /WAR /PLD and /DNC
                            Trying to compare a Paladin in Campaign and a Paladin doing HNMs is pretty odd, since the goals are completely different. Usually in Campaign you want to (a) deal as much damage as possible (b) stay alive and (c) try to get the enemy to focus on someone else so you can stay alive.

                            HNM and other endgame activities that actually need tanking, on the other hand, needs someone who can (a) hold the enemy's attention (b) stay alive and. Towards that end, endgame PLDs are usually kitted out with lots of -damage% gear, a good shield or an earth staff (more likely to be shield + sword these days than in the past), and will usually bring /NIN to the table for extra damage avoidance unless an enemy hits too fast for it to be worthwhile (i.e. Faust).


                            Icemage

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                            • #15
                              Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

                              I see. So endgame tanking is more about being able to survive damage spikes and generate big hate spikes, contrary to Campaign tanking where you need to survive for longer periods of time and acumulate emnity for longer periods of time.

                              And since PLDs rarely have support there they are pretty much guaranteed to go down when it becomes a war of attrition. Which is RDM's speciality.
                              sigpic
                              "In this world, the one who has the most fun is the winner!" C.B.
                              Prishe's Knight 2004-Forever.

                              その目だれの目。

                              Comment

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