Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

[Taskmage]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Head Butt sucks even in 40-capped Diabolos. The stun goes off less than 50% of the time, which is just not reliable enough for that fight. As a backup stunner, it's not a bad idea but definately take a drk to that fight.

Mostly blu is nice as a sub for Cocoon, and also provides access to Ex weaponskills for both sword and club if for some reason you want to Seraph Strike something. Auto Regen from Healing Breeze+Sheep Song isn't bad for extended farming sessions either. For parties ... yeah, no good.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Overall, from personal experience, for XP parties, /WHM produces much more dependable and consistent results than /BLM unless you have some ridiculously good gear at 75 (Dalmatica + Duelist's Chapeau).

This is just nitpicking, this statement is fair to say about ToA EXP, but EXPing in RoZ or CoP zones where RDM is not being banked upon as a main healer, I'd still say /BLM was the way to go.

EXP PTs still happen in these areas, believe it or not. I did Ro'Maeve this week. Would have been much better had the RDM not gone /WHM.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

This is just nitpicking, this statement is fair to say about ToA EXP, but EXPing in RoZ or CoP zones where RDM is not being banked upon as a main healer, I'd still say /BLM was the way to go.

It's more of a personal preference than anything, if -na, Erase, or Curaga isn't needed at all.

Otherwise, on things with AoE damages (Hi Hobgoblin), it's better for a RDM/WHM to toss out a Curaga to top off the melee than for a WHM to toss out one right after a Curaga II. Same with monster which have AoE status effects (e.g. Cockatrice, Antica). It's also nice to back up any SMN/WHM main healer with a RDM/WHM.

Frankly, if you not sure what you getting into, /WHM is the safer choice.

EXP PTs still happen in these areas, believe it or not. I did Ro'Maeve this week. Would have been much better had the RDM not gone /WHM.

Isn't Ro'Maeve a Weapons camp? Why would /WHM be bad? I'd think an extra Curaga after Whirl of Rage would be nice. Even if it's not needed, what does /BLM offer when fighting a Weapon? (And, if fighting Golems, too, wouldn't /WHM be even more desirable?)

With a NIN tank, /PLD or /DRK for Flash or Stun may be nice after Whirl of Rage, but I don't quite see the advantage of /BLM over /WHM here...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

It's more of a personal preference than anything, if -na, Erase, or Curaga isn't needed at all.

Otherwise, on things with AoE damages (Hi Hobgoblin), it's better for a RDM/WHM to toss out a Curaga to top off the melee than for a WHM to toss out one right after a Curaga II. Same with monster which have AoE status effects (e.g. Cockatrice, Antica). It's also nice to back up any SMN/WHM main healer with a RDM/WHM.

Frankly, if you not sure what you getting into, /WHM is the safer choice.

Isn't Ro'Maeve a Weapons camp? Why would /WHM be bad? I'd think an extra Curaga after Whirl of Rage would be nice. Even if it's not needed, what does /BLM offer when fighting a Weapon? (And, if fighting Golems, too, wouldn't /WHM be even more desirable?)

With a NIN tank, /PLD or /DRK for Flash or Stun may be nice after Whirl of Rage, but I don't quite see the advantage of /BLM over /WHM here...

You're nitpicking the zone. Weapons and Statues, in addition to most RoZ/CoP mobs still have higher defenses here and what is RDM all about? Right, Enfeebling. Endurance. /BLM gives you more options to do just that. You get quite a bit more than the novelties of a /PLD sub. /DRK isn't the one-trick pony PLD is.

And skillchains can come back into play, i'd rather a RDM watch for those and MB for faster kills here than continue to play Pink Mage from ToA. /BLM adds just a little push there, alibeit not a big one, but i look to RDM to MB with or without a BLM present in these areas.

At any rate, I object to the notion /BLM can only be better with [Insert Absurdy difficult-to-obtain endgame gear here]. Its not the subjob for main healing, sure, but RDM doesn't always have to be a go-to healer, I think the TP burn trend has just stereotyped it as such.

[Amele]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

In terms of typical party efficiency, the truth is that:
/WHM vs. /BLM
(1) Divine Seal + Cure IV is an automatic savings of 88MP every 10 minutes if you're doing a regular Convert cycle and burning Divine Seal on yourself.
(2) Assuming you manage your HP/MP with Regen correctly, Auto-Regen also chips in a little extra efficiency in there for no extra effort. This becomes doubly true if you are in a high-maintenance group who take a lot of damage; sacrifice Divine Seal to tack onto the odd Curaga II and now you're at ~90-120MP saved, plus making full use of Auto-Regen at 200 extra HP every 10 minutes.
(3) Erase is worth its weight in gold when you really need it.
Conserve MP is great. However, we can talk about 7% over time, but it's inconsistent. Sometimes the savings are there in spades and you have a ton of MP left over for extra nuking (whether you need it or not), and other times it kicks in virtually never and it's like you had no trait at all. In an extended XP session, this sort of inconsistency kills XP chains.
Overall, from personal experience, for XP parties, /WHM produces much more dependable and consistent results than /BLM unless you have some ridiculously good gear at 75 (Dalmatica + Duelist's Chapeau).
Icemage

(based on the way you worded this, I'm assuming you mean that there is no whm present in the pt and the rdm is either sharing the healing role with a smn/whm or solo healing) in which case I agree fully.

with a whm in the pt though, you should be getting a regen III and/or a 'better' cure from the whitemage (I get ~250 cure III's in exp on whm, assuming people leave my hp alone) and not need the DS to save 88 mp, (which, when you're alone significantly reduces the 'bonus' of conserve mp for most convert cycles)

and the whole point of extended exp is that the bonuses *do* average out over time, so assuming you're in a party that can chain 7 without putting you close to oom, then conserve mp isn't going to suddenly 'fail' at chain 37; although I had forgotten about Divine Seal in terms of gaining mp efficiency (DS+curaga II is a great way to save mp lol)

Otherwise, on things with AoE damages (Hi Hobgoblin), it's better for a RDM/WHM to toss out a Curaga to top off the melee than for a WHM to toss out one right after a Curaga II. Same with monster which have AoE status effects (e.g. Cockatrice, Antica). It's also nice to back up any SMN/WHM main healer with a RDM/WHM.

possibly nitpicking - if a curaga is all that's needed then the rdm/whm doesn't need to cast at all, the whitemage will clean it up with regens if they're not dumb as a brick. (topping people off is the biggest support healer mistake any job can make in parties that contain a whitemage.)

going /whm for supporting status effects is always a good idea though.

and yeah, I totally agree that for main/co-healing, there is only one good sub (rdm/whm)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

possibly nitpicking - if a curaga is all that's needed then the rdm/whm doesn't need to cast at all, the whitemage will clean it up with regens if they're not dumb as a brick. (topping people off is the biggest support healer mistake any job can make in parties that contain a whitemage.)

As long as you're aware that Curaga can be potentially more MP efficient than Regen. And, I didn't really mean "top off" as in fill to 100% full for everyone--poor choice of words. Just that bomb/sphere type attack can really take out a lot of HP, so you'd want the frontline jobs all in white before the next critter, and fast.

You're nitpicking the zone.

I used your example, looked up what people usually exp on there, then tried to figure out why you said you'd rather the RDM go with /BLM.

Right, Enfeebling. Endurance. /BLM gives you more options to do just that. You get quite a bit more than the novelties of a /PLD sub. /DRK isn't the one-trick pony PLD is.

And skillchains can come back into play, i'd rather a RDM watch for those and MB for faster kills here than continue to play Pink Mage from ToA. /BLM adds just a little push there, alibeit not a big one, but i look to RDM to MB with or without a BLM present in these areas.

I've used both RDM/BLM and RDM/WHM quite a it, and have to say the Conserve MP isn't very noticeable, and Aspir not very reliable. 7% saving is great, but when I toss out a Curaga, it saves both MP and time.

However much I like Aspir, it does return uninspiring net gain or even less MP than it uses pretty often. -_- We don't always get to fight monsters with MP, either--heck, most parties don't even tell me where we're going during invite, much less which monsters we're fighting.

My attitude toward backup healing is this: whatever minor things I offload from the main healer, I help them do their primary job--keeping the tank alive--better. I don't always need /WHM for that, but it comes in handy often enough to make it my favorite and default support job in exp parties.

BTW, /PLD is a two-trick pony: Auto-Refresh and Flash. MB'ing is not about the support job, but about having enough MP and time. A few points of INT from /BLM really won't help that much. If expecting long fights, I rather MB enfeebs like Paralyze instead of nukes if SC'ing at the beginning of the fight.

No question that /BLM is a great support job, with ES, Sleepga, Conserver MP, Escape, Aspir, Tractor, Drain. Its elemental enfeebs are very much complimentary to RDM's enfeebling role, too. I just find myself using the tools from /WHM more often than I do with /BLM when I'm on that combination, so it seems like /WHM is more useful overall to me.

At any rate, I object to the notion /BLM can only be better with [Insert Absurdy difficult-to-obtain endgame gear here]. Its not the subjob for main healing, sure, but RDM doesn't always have to be a go-to healer, I think the TP burn trend has just stereotyped it as such.

Don't know why you mention gears, because I sure haven't even thought about endgame gear. >_>

Where I like to use /BLM the most is with aggressive pullers where the party has two other /WHM (or WHM), and using a dangerous camp. It's the best crowd control combination, with Sleepga and Elemental Seal. Also great where Escape can potentially save a party.

RDM/BLM also pretty nice when there's another refresher plus a great WHM in party--if I don't need to cure much and can afford to blow MP on nukes, I might as well add some elemental enfeebs to keep from getting bored.

Overall, though, I still think it's mostly a matter of preference. Many RDM exp'ed to Lv.75 using only /BLM, and many only using /WHM. They both work.

[Icemage]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

If we're talking about Weapon camps in sky or Ro'Maeve, frankly I'd rather use RDM/BRD there than RDM/BLM. Horde Lullaby is a 0 MP counter to Blink, which is worth more than every spell you get from /BLM. Saves huge MP because it's one more effect you don't have to Dispel (speaking of which, Magic Finale when /BRD is 100% effective against those spell buffs Weapons use too).

I'm not saying RDM/BLM is bad. It's a decent catch-all sub, and undeniably the best RDM sub from 40-50. When you do have a dedicated WHM in the party, then by all means, knock yourself out with /BLM. It doesn't really happen often though.


Icemage

[Amele]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

As long as you're aware that Curaga can be potentially more MP efficient than Regen. And, I didn't really mean "top off" as in fill to 100% full for everyone--poor choice of words. Just that bomb/sphere type attack can really take out a lot of HP, so you'd want the frontline jobs all in white before the next critter, and fast.

had me curious about where the breaking point was (I was aware that curaga line could potentially do more but usually only in situations where literally everyone gets hit, so here's the numbers; I excluded the briault and merits from the effect and am comparing redmage curaga and curaga II with whm regen I/ II/ III (so +10% only on curaga)

Curaga 100 * people / 60 = 1.67 * people hp/mp
Curaga II 210 * people / 120 = 1.75 * people hp/mp
Regen 125 / 15 = 8.33
Regen II 240 / 36 = 6.67
Regen III 400 / 64 = 6.25
for curaga II (the most efficient redmage curaga) to be as cost effective as Regen III (the least efficient whitemage regen) you would need to hit 3.7 full bars. in a 'traditional' PT (tank DD DD support nuke healer) you won't get 3 bars. in a melee pt (DD/tank DD DD DD support healer) you can get 4 (at which point the whitemage should *still* be casting curaga II over the redmage, since whm will get an additional 10%) with the 10% gain from whitemage, you would only need to hit about 3.3 people
for Curaga II to be as efficient as regen, it'd take almost 5 people in aoe range. (which might happen on occasion for a bard/whm but rarely would for a rdm/whm)
time efficiency is, of course, a factor (and one of the key reasons that whitemages don't stop using single cures at higher levels) and a curaga/curaga II plus the extra resting time may be better mp management, but in terms of efficiency, a regen spec'd whitemage blows the socks off all competition short of dragoon healing breath.
for the record at 75, I use a mix of curaga and regen and only use single target cures when an utsu tank gets in the orange or a paladin tank gets to cure V range, excluding situations where the one-shot threshold is higher than this and when targets are too spread out to hit a sufficient number with curaga (and outside party cure targets, of course). I did not merit regen and I don't own a briault (so my numbers are as above).

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Horde Lullaby is a 0 MP counter to Blink, which is worth more than every spell you get from /BLM.

I'm sorry, this doesn't make any sense. Most weapon mobs come buffed. Why not just Dipsel/Finale off the bat? Dispel doesn't cost that much MP.

[Amele]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

I'm sorry, this doesn't make any sense. Most weapon mobs come buffed. Why not just Dipsel/Finale off the bat? Dispel doesn't cost that much MP.

x-aga is a faster and free way to wipe the shadows that the melee cares about getting stripped, and saves that first dispel/finale for a *real* buff. (like pro or stoneskin)

diaga would probably accomplish a similar goal for rdm main, pulling double duty as both dia and a shadow wipe.

(does dispel ignore shadows?)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

x-aga is a faster and free way to wipe the shadows that the melee cares about getting stripped, and saves that first dispel/finale for a *real* buff. (like pro or stoneskin)

Its going to be gone in three swipes anyway, if that's the best reason, I'd rather you did go /WHM.

(does dispel ignore shadows?)

No, it kills them.

[Taskmage]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

That's not entirely true. At least rdm dispel can go through and dispel blink, but it can also be absorbed by a shadow. If it's utsusemi, one shadow will always take the dispel.

[Amele]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

That's not entirely true. At least rdm dispel can go through and dispel blink, but it can also be absorbed by a shadow. If it's utsusemi, one shadow will always take the dispel.

so it doesn't ignore shadows (blink being a percentage throw between you and your shadows.. I wonder how different ninja would be if utsusemi *was* blink. lol )

[Icemage]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Its going to be gone in three swipes anyway, if that's the best reason, I'd rather you did go /WHM.

A lot of those Ro'Maeve weapons come in with as many as 6 buffs (Protect, Shell, Haste, Stoneskin, Blink, Aquaveil). You don't have time to cast Dispel 6 times praying to hit the one buff which is Protect.

Horde Lullaby is a guaranteed 100% wipe against Blink, which would otherwise potentially zap one of your Dispels.

No, it kills them.

Incorrect. Dispel and Magic Finale can both be absorbed by Blink, just like any other targetted attack.

The combination of Horde Lullaby + Magic Finale as a second 0 MP Dispel outweighs every other sub you can use against Weapons in Ro'Maeve. The savings in MP cost on Dispel alone make it worthwhile, and the extra kill speed when you're casting Dispel/Finale at twice the regular rate, plus Horde Lullaby to ensure you don't get blink-shadowed on Finale/Dispel means that Protect is gone much sooner than later. Also note that those two extra hits Blink might absorb could be one of your Dispels, or could otherwise be two solid melee hits.

I've used /WHM, /BLM, and /BRD there, and /BRD outperforms in spades.


Icemage

[Electricity Gone Human]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Blue Mage offers very little for party play for Red Mages. Zero useful job traits (you can't really get access to any of the good hidden bonuses like Auto-Refresh with access to only level 37 Blue Magic spells), and Healing Breeze is inferior to Curaga/Curaga II when subbed and compared to /WHM.

So Auto-Regen (from Healing Breeze + Sheep Song set together) stacked with normal Regen doesn't fill in for the very-needed Cure III after a Cure IV after Converting to get back to near-full health, while conserving MP at the same time? {Hmmm.}

As for Healing Breeze, It may not do as much as Curaga/Curaga II, but if you're in a situation where the party's not going to take a lot of damage, I say go for it and stack on some +MND and use it with a Light Staff near-end or after a battle so there won't be as much curing to go around.