Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

[Mikamaru]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

It's situational; best Convert, and Auto-Refresh is nicer than Ballad from /BRD for its "always on" nature. (Though, it is only only for yourself). Aerial Armor has marginal utility for overly eager melee type without /NIN, to boot.

taru rdm/whm i already have over 70 more MP then HP, not counting when i have some of my Zenith on..... even worse on /blm...

[Mikamaru]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

double post sry...

[Evion]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

First of all, why would RDM be able to equip the strongest swords and armors in the game and NOT be on the front line? That being said, I vote for RDM/WAR, RDM/DRK, or RDM/PLD! Also, I'm only a lv 22 RDM/WAR right now and have only a month under my belt. (have researched a lot though...)

RDM/WAR, RDM/DRK PROS:
Put your ability to equip the best attacking equipment to good use. Actually conjuer up some good attack througought your levels. Be able to put your DDs to more use. Your common PT DD is ONLY good for damage. I just can't figure out why that is good. Diversify! RDM/DRK,RDM/WAR can deal damage AND cure AND enfeeble AND occasionally nuke. +, YOU CAN SOLO BETTER THAN ALMOST ANY OTHER COMBO.

CONS: You don't get invited to PTs as often because of close-minded players... Oh, and you aren't the BEST at one particular thing

RDM/PLD PROS:
See pros above but for defense instead of attacking.

Cons: See Cons above

[Mhurron]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

First of all, why would RDM be able to equip the strongest swords and armors in the game

Excepting for Excalibur, they can't.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

First of all, why would RDM be able to equip the strongest swords and armors in the game and NOT be on the front line?

1. B rated skill in Sword, without access to most of the better damage ones. You'd be at lower base accuracy than melees using A rated weapons, and hitting for less when your swings connect.

2. B rated skill in Dagger. Unlike THF, you can't make huge spike damage with a dagger. Not even if you go /THF. Dagger DoT isn't that impressive, and you still have less accuracy and do less damage per hit than a THF, who is a real Dagger specialist.

3. Eating a sleepga or other AoE attacks isn't helpful to your party. You should be helping to wake up people hit by attacks like Dream Flowers or healing those damaged by Cursed Sphere, not be a burden on other mages.

4. Your best asset to help a party is MP. If you're not casting, you should be resting. Besides, once your duty expand fully, you'd have on your plate multiple Refresh, multiple Haste, enfeeb, crowd control, main or backup curing, status removal (if using /WHM). At that point, melee'ing becomes a unneeded distraction.

Some RDM's say they can do all that well, and still melee; I can't. If you can't either, then other duties should take priority over your low damage output from melee'ing.

5. Lv.51 and above, you should be switching between different elemental staves for different spells, all the time. You lose TP every time you switch. You lose DoT every time you auto-attack with a staff (of which you have 0 native skill) instead of sword or dagger. Your melee output will suck, a lot. Before Lv.51, you should be casting with a MND+/INT+ wand to increase spell potency. Again, the same problem, except you actually have some club skill--too bad those wands are low damage weapons, so you still lose TP and have lower damage over time.

YOU CAN SOLO BETTER THAN ALMOST ANY OTHER COMBO.

Well, if solo'ing, use whatever you like.

If in party, the best thing usually is to try to use a {Support Job} which best aid the {Support Role Job} that is a RDM. You can't go very wrong Lv.1 to 75 exp'ing on /WHM, honestly.

Of course, RDM can actually tank in very low level parties with /WAR, so if that's a party needs--and you have the gears to play that role, go for it. There are parties where DD's are so terrible that a RDM melee'ing full time is essential, but those are not the parties you want, believe me.

(My RDM was actually the top DD in one Yhoator Jungle party--it stands out in my memory as one of the worst party I've ever joined, with one memorable "DD SMN" doing less damage than the WHM, avatars included.)

Just remember, if a party which already have a tank and good DD's, then it won't need you to tank or do much damage. That includes the vast majority of parties, and you should go with /WHM (or /BLM, depending on party/camp/monster) in those.

[Murphie]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Not to be a jerk, but it tickles my funny bone that the folks suggesting all of these unusual things are always like "Hay, I'm only level 22, but I have totally read a lot of forums and sites. So I know what I'm talking about!"

[Mhurron]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Not to be a jerk, but it tickles my funny bone that the folks suggesting all of these unusual things are always like "Hay, I'm only level 22, but I have totally read a lot of forums and sites. So I know what I'm talking about!"

You forgot to add that the reason it doesn't work for them is it's everyone elses fault and they're the only ones who have been enlightened.

[Taskmage]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

I hear ya. But I used to be the same way so I bite my tongue.

[Evion]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

You all-powerful and all-knowing guys should give me some gil and tell me to shut up!

[Amele]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

/blm is good if there is a whm. about what who ever said about the /BLM enfebs, choke rasp drown ect... there not that great for normal pt's by the time u get off all your rdm enfebs then start on the blm enfebs the fight will almost be over. that and if you think you can /blm and replace a blm, your dreamin. i'm a RDM75 taru, a BLM hume can out DD me with the same Tier III spell. and i do have MaB gear to help.
/whm is overall the best choice for rdm for many reasons. 1, divine seal. it saves you 100mp when you convert. -na spells, macroing in your -na spells will save a nin's ass if he's para'd. and the -ra spells are okay to have, when ever i main heal in a pt i -ra everyone and IV the tank.

throwing my hat in the ring here for a minute.. in the abstract, rdm/blm will manage mp better than rdm/whm (caveat: someone else has the appropriate na-spells for the camp and people are ok with you not casting more than one or two protect IV's)
primarily because whitemage (main or sub) has no native mp efficiency traits. conserve MP will save you approximately 7% of your gross mp usage over time - this is comparable to auto-refresh at ~285mp/min casting rate and is better above this (and less efficient below this).

in the earlier (pre 70+ levels) rdm/blm can also be useful in some camps for fast cast escape, and having warp is convenient at all levels.

so I would be happy with a rdm/blm or /whm in most pts.

[Icemage]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

throwing my hat in the ring here for a minute.. in the abstract, rdm/blm will manage mp better than rdm/whm (caveat: someone else has the appropriate na-spells for the camp and people are ok with you not casting more than one or two protect IV's)
primarily because whitemage (main or sub) has no native mp efficiency traits. conserve MP will save you approximately 7% of your gross mp usage over time - this is comparable to auto-refresh at ~285mp/min casting rate and is better above this (and less efficient below this).
in the earlier (pre 70+ levels) rdm/blm can also be useful in some camps for fast cast escape, and having warp is convenient at all levels.
so I would be happy with a rdm/blm or /whm in most pts.

In terms of typical party efficiency, the truth is that:

/WHM vs. /BLM

(1) Divine Seal + Cure IV is an automatic savings of 88MP every 10 minutes if you're doing a regular Convert cycle and burning Divine Seal on yourself.

(2) Assuming you manage your HP/MP with Regen correctly, Auto-Regen also chips in a little extra efficiency in there for no extra effort. This becomes doubly true if you are in a high-maintenance group who take a lot of damage; sacrifice Divine Seal to tack onto the odd Curaga II and now you're at ~90-120MP saved, plus making full use of Auto-Regen at 200 extra HP every 10 minutes.

(3) Erase is worth its weight in gold when you really need it.

Conserve MP is great. However, we can talk about 7% over time, but it's inconsistent. Sometimes the savings are there in spades and you have a ton of MP left over for extra nuking (whether you need it or not), and other times it kicks in virtually never and it's like you had no trait at all. In an extended XP session, this sort of inconsistency kills XP chains.

Overall, from personal experience, for XP parties, /WHM produces much more dependable and consistent results than /BLM unless you have some ridiculously good gear at 75 (Dalmatica + Duelist's Chapeau).


Icemage

[Tekumel]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Edited cuz I've been a bad boy.

Murph, I agree with your assessment of the guy. Seems to be the pattern more often than not, and definitely the case here.

Evion, I have no gil for you, but I concur with the latter half of your statement, at least until you are sufficiently experienced (personally, not reading the experiences of others) in the subject matter on which you speak. Bigg wurdz r fun.

[Kulinkwatz]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Hi,

i restart with FFXI today and want to play a red mage.

I don't understand why nearly no one talks about the blue mage as Red Mage sub. Could someone explain me whats wrong with the blue mage? I thought his healing breeze is one of the most efficient heal spells out there. And his extra versatility sounds good, too. Also Cocoon gives the red mage an real big amount of defense. And there are a few additional buffs and debuffs too.

So whats the reason why nearly no one talks about this combination?

[Mhurron]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Hi,
i restart with FFXI today and want to play a red mage.
I don't understand why nearly no one talks about the blue mage as Red Mage sub. Could someone explain me whats wrong with the blue mage? I thought his healing breeze is one of the most efficient heal spells out there. And his extra versatility sounds good, too. Also Cocoon gives the red mage an real big amount of defense. And there are a few additional buffs and debuffs too.
So whats the reason why nearly no one talks about this combination?

Blue Mages stat boost seems to lend itself more to solo play or special events then a party sub. BLU is a good sub like DRK, BRD and NIN are good subs.

For healing brease, I don't know how linked that is to Blue Magic skill, if it's like Elemental spells then half skill from your sub would make it far less effective then it is with a BLU main.

AFAIK, some have leveled BLU as a RDM sub. I currently am, but I won't be using it in a Merit party when I do.

[Icemage]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Blue Mage offers very little for party play for Red Mages. Zero useful job traits (you can't really get access to any of the good hidden bonuses like Auto-Refresh with access to only level 37 Blue Magic spells), and Healing Breeze is inferior to Curaga/Curaga II when subbed and compared to /WHM.

Really the only use for RDM/BLU I can see is when solo against hard-hitting enemies, where you can make use of Coccoon's excellent damage mitigation when paired with Stoneskin/Phalanx/Bio II-III, or for special-case level 40ish battles like Diabolos where you might be able to do some neat thngs with Chainspell + Headbutt. For party purposes, this is never, ever a good combination.


Icemage