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  • Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

    I making this topic in response to the many arguments of Party correct vs "Gimped" subs. Accordingly im asking those who would like to perticapate in making suitable guide This fourms Job to post the PROS and CONS of EACH sub weither it be an appropiate sub or a non appropiate sub. Also please indcate which subs you would recommend for pting, perhaps in its own section in your post. If you would like to contribute more besides the job of this fourm please visit the other job fourms. after considerable information is recorded i will begin to make a guide for the site. Credit will go to the Users of FFXIO * taking down each name of a contributer would be tedius and in-effecient but i will work out an appropiate credting title*

    The job guide would be added to ffxio database and added to the main page.

  • #2 one has posted yet.

    I know I'm not a red mage, yet, but I can post from what I've heard that works.

    RDM/BLM - Pros: can be an effective nuker, along with gaining the -aga spells. And a boost in mp and int.
    RDM/BLM - Cons: Like most mages, shyt defence.

    RDM/WHM - Pros: back up healer, also probably (if not) the best enfeebler in the game. That and rdm get a boost in mind to help healing. Along with a nice mp boost (like blm sub)
    RDM/WHM - Cons: see /blm sub

    RDM/SUM - Pros: HUGE mp Pool. Along with getting Auto-Refresh.
    RDM/SUM - Cons: Half level avatars. see /blm or /whm sub

    RDM/Bard - Pros: I'm not really sure about this, but it seems like a really really busy enfeebler, debuffer, and back up healing. Also, unlike mage and summoner sub, they don't get shyt defence, it's ok, but still not good to get hit >_<
    RDM/Bard - Cons: I'm not sure Apple Pie could probably answer this best, but. Probably the fact that duing the battle you will be doing so much, and if you aren't 100% paying attention, you could miss a turn.

    (hope I did all right)

    If the minimum wasn't acceptable it wouldn't be called the minimum. ~ The Tweezen way


    • #3
      RDM30/BLM15 - Clear mind (1 level earlier), Elemental Seal
      RDM34/BLM17 - Warp
      RDM40/BLM20 - MP conserve
      RDM58/BLM29 - Escape

      RDM30/WHM15 - Elemental Seal
      RDM50/WHM25 - Auto-regen

      RDM20/SMN10 - Max MP boost
      RDM50/SMN25 - Auto-refresh


      • #4
        Time to offer my two cents on the issue, I'm a 40RDM/20BLM for all those wondering. The list of cons will be rather short. I don't think it is right to list the pros of another class as the cons of one, such as BLM isn't good because they don't get Curaga etc. I will only list negatives or misconseptions relating directely to the sub job.

        -RDM/BLM: Pros

        With the exception of summoner, blackmage gives the highest MP boost of the 3 mage classes. BLM also receive Elemental seal which is great for landing those enfeebles. You also receive two very nice spells, drain and aspir. Since RDM main job is Enfeebling I would reccomend BLM over WHM as best enfeebler because I consider choke/rasp/burn etc. enfeebles (even though they are technicaly elementals). Bottom line is that RDM is enfeeble pro and /BLM gives the most debuffs. BLM also gives Clear mind, increased MP gained when healing, Magic Atk bonuses, and Conserve MP, which randomly cuts down on spell MP cost. (I've heard that similar skills do acctually stack, such as 2 Magic ATK boosts, however they just aren't visible in the abilities window. When my RDM hit 40 I didn't see my second ATK bonus so I think that proves it)

        -RDM/BLM: Cons

        Many people will sub BLM thinking that it will make them a better damage dealer in terms of elementals, however the INT bonus received from /BLM isn't high enough to compensate for difference in RDM to BLM intelligence. I do about 3/4 to 4/5 the damage of the BLM in my pt's, but I also have all +INT gear. With my wand out I have +14 or so INT. Also you will notice that you don't have the II's or III's like blm's. In PT's BLM's cast Water II for burst, or Fire II, and I would cast Blizzard, they out burst me by atleast 100 pts of damage. (I know have water II, but I still don't do the same damage and its even more clear on bursts)

        -RDM/BLM: Conclusion
        As far as picking a traditional PT friendly support job, BLM is the route to go. Sub BLM will give you more Debuff spells, nice passives, and a decent amount of MP.
        I give this a 4.5/5


        -RDM/WHM: Pros
        Subbing WHM is probably the most popular choice amoung RDM's. Many RDM play the role of backup healer, if not main healer, and what class to better help than WHM. WHM gives you a boost to your MND which effects healing potency, as well as access to AOE Cures ( Curaga) , AOE protections (Protectra, shell, bar-insertelmenthere), and status cures (Blindna, Viruna). The RDM/WHM is almost entirely supportave in that you really don't get any offensive bonuses in magic attack or passives. Auto Regen is nice I and can cut down on unneccissary cures after a convert. Divine Seal is probably the best thing about subbing WHM, You could phalanx/stoneskin/divine seal/ curaga and should probably last a little while for the others to build up hate.

        -RDM/WHM: Cons
        Contrary to what most people think RDM/WHM is not the best Sub if you want to be a healer. Your MND will only be a few points, maybe 3, higher than a /BLM. (this is around lvl 35ish). And even with mostly +INT gear on my RDM/BLM I am still able to heal for the full amounts for Cure I and Cure II. I have no problem playing main healer with only Cure II and Regen, so even if you don't heal full with Cure III it is not needed. More importantly you probably wouldn't heal the full amount with /WHM either. The MP you get from SMN or BLM will give you another Cure that makes up for _maybe_ not healing as much as the /WHM. Subbing WHM won't get you cure spells any faster, your RDM only gets them a few levels behind the WHM as is. The only spell that you will get in an offensive view is Banish, which you probably wouldn't use anyways, and I'm not even sure which enfeebles are WHM only if there even are such spells.

        RDM/WHM: Conclusion
        Support Class WHM gives a few "nice" adds and some nice bonus on paper, but in real game situations they aren't nearly as needed as some of the other subs. WHM doesn't give as much MP as a BLM or a SMN, and the extra MND isn't enough to make a big difference, you won't get any offensive benefits either. However you will get status cures which are very nice, and AOE buffs/cures which combined with the resistance of a RDM can be quite usefull
        I give this a 4/5

        Now it's time for a break, I'll right up my views on /SMN and a few other intresting ideas I have tomorow.


        • #5
          This fourms Job to post the PROS and CONS of EACH sub weither it be an appropiate sub or a non appropiate sub.
          Your response....

          WAR would be a good sj...right?
          Why do you think that warrior would be a good suppor job? What do you feel are the pros and cons of chosing a warrior, then think about those pros/cons vs. the pros/cons of say... SJ WHM or SJ BLM.

          The only practial reason I could see for subbing warrior would be for berserk, warcry, access to WAR/PLD/DRK only Weapon Skills (does this still work?). And the physical defense boost.

          In regards to the title of this thread, I would say that /WAR is infact a gimped sub as far as building a somewhat optimized PT. While at low levels it might seem cool to tank with a rdm (with added provoke), you probably will have alot of trouble keeping the hate post lvl 20ish. You will simply take too much damage and put out too little to keep the mob focused on you.


          • #6
            Couple of things about blm sub vs whm sub

            1). whm sub does provide a small bit more of MND, but once you hit 32 rdm/blm, you have access to Shock which lowers enemy MND. Usually you can't rely on your party's blm to cast Shock, ever(at least in my experience), and there's no guarentee that you'll even have a blm in the party, so it's nice to have your own Shock handy. Once you Shock the enemy, your enfeebles will be harder to resist, and they should be more consistantly effective(especially stuff like paralyze and silence).

            In other words, the positive benefits of having more MND for enfeebling from whm sub are easily matched by being able to Shock the enemy.

            2). whm sub provides divine seal which is on the same refresh timer as Convert. In other words . . .

            Convert, Divine Seal, Cure III self

            or IV if you like.

            whm sub also provides Erase at level . . . 66 rdm/whm I think? Having Erase AND Dispel would be kinda cool. Maybe not all that useful, but kinda cool. You'd also get some of the teleport spells at very high level, but honestly, I'd rather have Warp and Escape.

            All things considered, I'd rather have whm sub until level 32, at which point I'll be switching to blm sub. blm sub doesn't provide much other than +int and +mp until 30 or so, and I have two astral rings, so the +mp isn't much of an issue(the difference in mp boost between whm sub and blm sub is quite small for an elvaan such as myself, anyway).


            • #7
              I've yet to attain later levels, so I don't consider myself an authority yet. I will therefore stay within the bounds of my experience. However, I've an acquaintence who uses this combo at a very high level and have spoken with him about it many times. Therefore I dip into my own first-hand and second-hand experience from him. Please excuse me if you feel I am misinformed.


              The disadvantages of RDM/NIN are clear. In comparison to a /SMN, /WHM, or /BLM, the boosts to mage stats will be minimal. In addition, you'll be missing the spells that are available to these jobs.

              Compared to the /WHM sub, the most noticeable things missing here are -na spells and -ra spells. Therefore, if your PT is planning to use you as a WHM replacement, you may want to consider another PT. As a RDM/NIN, you are not there to replace a WHM, though your function as backup healer and enhancer is still in place.

              In special place here, BCNM is going to require a specific combo, so keeping your /WHM leveled to half the BCNM level at least, regardless of your normal combo, is worth it.

              As for the /BLM sub, the more noticeable problems come in the lack of stat bonuses. You'll not be getting the high MP and INT that the BLM would deliver. Another consideration is that you will not get warp, escape, aspir or drain, all of which can be quite usefully applied.

              Finally, the /SMN offers a number of advantages at higher levels. The MP boost is incredible and both INT and MND are boosted a great deal. This is in addition to being able to use the party enhancers of your avatars once you get RDM50/SMN25, which are a great addition to any PT.

              So why do /NIN in the face of all these disadvantages?

              The first reason is that, like any less than ideal race/job combo, the disadvantages inherent in RDM/NIN are counterable with good items. There are very powerful wands and even swords that will help to boost these stats, in addition to jewelry and conquest/rare gear.

              The benefits of the RDM/NIN are quite unorthodox. The most obvious is dual weild. Being able to equip both a high DMG sword and a stat-boosting wand is not something to underestimate. You can stay in melee mode, contributing damage at a low but not shameful rate, while still casting efficiently. In addition, En- spells are often scoffed at, but shouldn't be, especially when used in conjunction with dual weild. With the /NIN, you will hit more often and harder with each swing and get two swings for every one without dual weild.

              As an example from my recent playing, a swing from my sword hitting for 20DMG, my wand for 10DMG and two enchantments giving 8DMG each adds up to a total of 46DMG in one round. That's not matching huge, but it's not something to be scoffed at either.

              That said, the advantages of /NIN in regards to melee improvements are hardly a good enough reason to use it in place of a mage sub.

              However, the elemental enfeebling Ninjutsu granted by /NIN are incredible. If you don't PT with a NIN, or if your NIN doesn't usually bring 5 stacks of dust specifically for the purpose of elemental enfeebling (I've only seen one NIN who did so other than me, though it supposedly becomes more common in later levels for keeping hate, but that's for a NIN discussion ), you will be responsible for this. Used properly, the boosts to your elemental spells and magic bursts will be amazing. You can literally double the power of your elemental spells, taking proper advantage of inherent elemental weakness and emphasizing it with the proper Ninjutsu. Anyone using Black Magic in your PT will be able to take advantage of these enfeeblements as well, so the damage of your PT will increase noticeably if you have yourself and another nuker. If you keep your Ninjutsu fully leveled, the power gained by it makes up for the disadvantages of the job.

              That said, have a good set of macros for whichever Ninjutsu and Elemental spells you'll be using ready every time you go hunting.

              And that brings up the most important thing about the /NIN sub. It is not for the lazy or poor. It will cost you a great deal of money, it will take up a fair amount of you inventory, and it will require you to keep the sub fully leveled. In addition, you'll want to keep your Ninjutsu, Sword and any other weapon you'll be using fully leveled. If you're not interested in keeping your skills up to date, spending a lot of money, and filling your inventory with Ninja Tools, forget it.

              By now, I'm sure you're thinking, "Why would anyone ever sub something that has so many drawbacks and is so hard to take advantage of?" There are a number of reasons besides those listed above, novelty not withstanding, that I'm not going to go through in depth. For soloing, RDM/NIN is second to none. People who've seen you in action, hitting every magic burst in a 3 part renkei, the first with an elemental enfeeblement Ninjutsu and the second for more than a lone BLM could ever hope to hit for, will remember you, and word will spread. Yes, it takes attention, effort, and dedication to make this combo work well, but you'll be rewarded with a fun, unique and effective combo.

              I hope I don't sound like too much of a RDM/NIN fanboy. I don't say that it's a better sub than /BLM, /WHM, or even /SMN, but it's definately worthy of mention with them. I have received some random people asking me if I didn't have another sub to use, and had to ask them to trust me, but they have all been pleasantly surprised.
              There will be cake.


              • #8
                /clap Patchinko ^^ Nice post.

                Since beginning of my RDM career, i've been goin as RDM/blm, but, after much boredom and freetime, I decided to do the NIN quest and get it to dual wield, and subbed it to RDM for the hell of it. And MAN... it was nice.

                Fighting Crawlers in the Nest at lvl 37....

                Start battle with 2 solid clubs equipped, and I'd lay down my whole line of debuffs(which stick SOoo much longer than with the +10 INT and MND from the clubs), then I'd press my handy macro to whip out my Dual Centurion Swords and EnBlizzard myself.

                Next, lower mob's resistance to blizzard(which both I and the BLM in the PT Benefitted from with the Power Slash-> Viper Bite skillchain with dual MBs), and Started whackin.

                I was doing considerable Damage. Not amazing, but I out damaged the THF per hit(of COURSE excluding that once a minute Jaw Dropper..), and looked DAMN sweet while doing it.

                I feel RDM/nin is a viable combo, but throughout the PT, I casted VERY VERY few cures, to compliment the limited MP pool from sub (Hume RDM/nin, lvl 37), but it was OK, we had a great white mage. RDM/nin can be an effective combo if you don't expect to be the backup healer. A PT with a PLD, WHM, and BRD/whm can EASILY handle the healing roles in the PT, and you can be pure offensive RDM(which I love).

                And since I have a BRD in my static PT, Sword Madrigal and Ballad are my songs of choice, so I hit almost every time(besides, I have +9 accuracy with dual Ctr. Swords and Battle gloves), so i don't feel very Inadequate.

                To make a long story short, in my 1 night of RDM/nin-ness, I loved it, and may choose to pursue it. Don't let anyone get ya down... even when you /sea all RDM, all you see are mage subs, it MIGHT NOT BE THE ONLY OPTION!!!


                • #9
                  Well, I might mention that my opinion is molded by being a Taru. Our MP pulls away from the rest of the pack throughout the 30s, so perhaps it would take some adjustments in play style for another race. Like I said, items can always make up for these issues. However, I would be hard pressed to recommend the combo to a Galka or even Elvaan without a couple of Astral Rings equipped at least, if not a Silver/Electrum/Gold hairpin. One nice feature is that Ninjutsu doesn't use up MP at least, so you don't have to worry about that.

                  And you bring up a good point that I didn't mention, but perhaps should have. Being able to equip dual wands and switch to dual swords is incredibly powerful. I personally use a wand/sword pair the whole time because I've yet to do gobbiebags, and therefore would have almost no inventory space for pies or crystals if I had two extra weapons with me along with all my Ninja Tools.

                  I still act as backup healer without difficulty, but having a set PT with a blink tank and a WHM makes it relatively unnecessary (Refresh/Regen, but very little curing).

                  [For reference, my current lvl41 set-up is two Electrum Rings, Electrum Hairpin, Ryl. Sqr. Robe, New Moon Armlets, Fencing Degen, Eremite's Wand, Shaman Belt, etc... so I'm definately making up for lacking MP, MND and INT with items. However, I'd probably wear the same were I /WHM or /BLM, so in reality, magic power is still reduced.]
                  There will be cake.


                  • #10
                    Another aspect of RDM/nin I just thought of ^^

                    To add to my last post about pros of RDM/nin, I thought of a new, verrrry useful one.

                    Though I myself have not reached 40, I understand that Convert creates a LARGE amount of hate, especially since you have very low HP and make a nice bullseye for the mob to take you out in 1 hit or AoE. Therefore, some people say, "Sub WHM for divine Seal + CureIII (in noobish voice)" Let's see, what would this do? Add much much much MORE hate onto what you already have, and give the PLD a hell of a time to get it off of you.

                    So... how do you counter this?

                    Simple, my good Watson! With /nin, in a pinch midbattle. Use Utsusemi(sp?) and convert. from there, you can cure III yourself or let the WHM do his/her thing and get you up to a nice HP #. This is more effective and efficient imo(all speculation, mind you), because from advise i've read on these forums from the Great Jei explained that the best way to do a mid-fight convert is to tell mages, run away from battle, convert and cure yourself, and THEN re-enter... wasting a good bit of time. /NIN can help with the Ninjutsu, and it's only 1-2(depending on situation) per convert fight. Now... remember that I'm still lvl 38 and not experienced with convert, but.... my theory sounds good, neh?

                    However, to all of my defense against /nin.... I myself am not going to burden myself or the PT with attempting to accomplish this task... It's just too much money to keep up with. I am currently on R&R from xping because I feel bad going into a PT with lower than optimal equipment and spell book, and I'm waiting for a friend to catch up to my level... but anywho... With Refresh coming up soon, and my humeness, non taruness(grumble) I anticipate the value of MP conserving Refresh... it will heavily outweigh what /nin can offer in a PT situation. To afford the elemental ninjutsu every battle and Utsusemi whenever needed is just a strain on mah pocketbook(waves angry fist at dispel). But for soloing for experience(as opposed to simply farming), i'm certainly going to sub NIN. But overall, for OPTIMUM performance in PTs, I recommend /blm.


                    • #11
                      Question. Isn't ninjitsu a ninja only skill and therefore you would only have lvl20ish ninjitsu power as compared to if it was your main at 40? Does this effect the potency and or ability to stick the enfeebles? Also Dual weild doesn't really increase the ammount of attacks you get per turn until you get the 4 or 5 speed increases for dual weild, at lvl 20 I think ninja has only 1 (the ability itself which doesn't make you attack faster) I'm not sure if lvl 20 gives you an increased speed one. The main point of rdm using nin sub would be for items like crimson blade: 5 int, 10 mp, decent damage. Ninja is def. a cool sub job and can be fun but it still comes down to not being the best choice. Its ok to use it as long as you don't mind people criticizing you, you have to understand that by choosing nin you choose your own wants over the party's needs.

                      On the topic of RDM doing meele damage, i'm all for it. I think rdm meeleing is fine as long as you are not fighting things with aoe damage like goblins. When you are fighting these mobs you have a good chance of dieing or getting low on health and 500 hp to heal is a decent chunk of mp wasted. I meele against things like crawlers and flys because the fly's aoe is pretty weak and whm normally curagas afterwards, but when it comes to high aoe damage I stay away for time's sake.

                      If you do want a meele job though, I suggest RDM/DRK. /DRK will give you intelligence, str and mp benefits, along with enhanced attack power traits. You will also get access to drain/aspir at an earlier level. This in my opinion is the best sub job for rdm if you plan to go the meele route.

                      And finally my idea that I'm not sure if it will work. What about RDM/BRD for those boring refreshbot levels. Since RDM is basically a refresher in the lvl 41-50 area why not sub BRD and toss out accuracy bonus to the meeles while you are at it? I think ballad is at lvl 25 so at 50 you could give that to yourself and the mages to add with refresh. While it won't add a whole lot, considering that rdm are only wanted for refresh at this level, /blm /whm will only help you in terms of MP and if refreshing is all you do, mp isnt an issue so why not try /brd.


                      • #12
                        You don't melee at high lvls. Very hard to hit the mobs, total waste of time. Rdm/Nin great when you wanna solo some NM's and stuff, but sucky for partys.
                        Sucky RDM of Bismark


                        • #13
                          I think there isn't one SJ dedicated to RDM because the class is very versatile.
                          When you have a job dedicated to a very specific task like PLD you dont have much choice (in this case WAR SJ)

                          I agree with what has been said before and there is not much to add from that point of view.

                          In the end it will just depends on your PT configuration.
                          I remember doing groups with 2 RDM and no WHM, thus in this case, subbing WHM could be a good idea for the status cure and the divine seal (Convert + Divine Seal + Cure 4 is great).
                          On the other hand you could end with no BLM (but a WHM in this case). This time the elemental debuffs will be needed (shock and frost makes a big difference for melee) while elemental seal can save you, being able to quickly sleep an add, or be a great addition when MB to be sure not to get resisted.

                          Some more factors are to be taken into account like how lazy are you (warp / escape from BLM), what kind of monsters are you fighting (nothing worse than a silenced WHM or a poisoned party with WHM out of MP) and so on.

                          Considering I am in a set PT with BLM and WHM (so my job is Slow / Para / Gravity / Refresh 4 people) I am thinking about trying NIN subbed (so I can dual wield those +5 INT/MND wands while testing my elemental nukes after using debuffs) or on the other hand trying SMN subbed (to get a most efficient Convert due to the higher max MP and an interesting auto-refresh since I rarely heal because I need to keep 4 people refreshed).
                          Though in the end I think BLM is usually the most interesting, then comes WHM.


                          • #14
                            you should try bard as subjob, since you have blm and whm in your set pt. Extra 1 mp regen for all is better than subbing summoner and getting the 1mp for yourself. You should also haste all the melee since the whm should be able to handle all the heals. But bad thing about subbing ninja is you have less mp, and you don't get mp conservation. Dual wielding an extra club isn't really helpful imho. You also don't get mp conservation with bard sub, but the extra 1mp from ballad does help.
                            All depends on what you fight really. If you kill stuff with mp use blm sub so you can aspir. Since all you do is cast 4 refresh and debuffs, you feel you have alot of wasted unused mp. So perhaps nuke or haste the melee and you'll go oom soon enough.
                            Sucky RDM of Bismark


                            • #15
                              There's way too much rdm/nin promotion going on here.

                              Dual-wielding does not make you hit much more often. The best delay you're going to get, as listed here:


                              by Divine Spirit

                              is LVL 25 = (1st weapon delay + 2nd weapon delay) * 0.85

                              Nothing too impressive, especially considering the fact that rdm/nin will be whiffing most of the time against ITs anyway(just like the rest of us. Sorry, bud). EN-magic isn't going to be much more powerful in your hands because you won't be hitting that much more often. You can pile on haste gear with /equip macros, but ehh, then you're compromising yourself by taking away slots that could go for +acc gear instead(in your meleeset).

                              Dual-wielding, so far as I know, does not make you hit harder.

                              Dual-wielding a sword and a wand at the same time is a bad idea because you're only watering down your damage output with the sword to hold a wand for stat bonuses. Every time you swing, one of those hits(the wand) will likely be 0 damage, or close to it. A rdm single-wielding a sword or wand can easily swap between the two to cast spells while meleeing. Swap in wand, cast spell, swap in sword/dagger/whatever, resume attacking.

                              Dual-wielding two wands ain't all that great either. Keep in mind that a rdm/<insertmagejobhere> will likely be using one wand at least some of the time, if not all of the time. You're only gaining the advantage of one more wand, which will only barely offset the stat boost you'd otherwise get from a mage sub(and does nothing to offset the mp bonus and spells/job abilities you're missing). And, there are some fairly interesting shields out there that rdm can use which you will not get while dual-wielding wands.

                              Rdm/nin will use ninjitsu at a lower level of effectiveness than would a nin/*. Even nin mains don't do much damage or inflict much elemental vulnerability upon targets with attack ninjitsu. You won't double the effectiveness of elemental attack spells. I've had ninja mains use attack ninjitsu for my benefit as a blm and a rdm, and I noticed very little difference. If you want to improve the performance of your nukes, use the /blm sub and cast Burn. Burn rules.

                              I severely doubt that some rdm/nin will MB for more damage than a stand-alone blm could hope to do, given the fact that a blm of the same level will almost always have available offensive spells one order of magnitude higher than what a rdm would have. They also have more int AND more elemental skill.