Some NIN/RNG logs (long)

[Rekiem]

Re: Clarification

Originally posted by DrSerpico
Dear Rekiem
Allow me to once more try to reach your attentionspan:



It has been stated more than twice that playing rng instead will NOT give you levels/exp for nin job. Which part of this do you NOT understand after levelling a character to level 75?

We've acknowledged that rng main WILL produce higher damage. There is no doubt about it. Even tho that is nice and dandy, it isn't the point of this discussion!

I plead you to reread everything, and don't skip the posts that aren't yours!

This is like playing a BLM/WHM and use him as a main healer. Sure its possible, but WHM/BLM will always be better at it don't you think?

So now, the player make his character and he wants to be a main healer when he plays. Is he going to make a WHM/BLM or a BLM/WHM? Im pretty damn sure he will make a White Mage.

So this thread is the same as suggesting a player who wants to start a DD job combo to be a NIN/RNG instead of a RNG/NIN. Its just that wrong.

This thread was started by a player who doesn't have his WAR job level'ed and play RNG/NIN as a main job. He decided to go NIN/RNG to level his sub so he could go back to his main. Its not about NIN/RNG being a DD. Its just some kind of justification for not playing NIN/WAR. Because anyone smart who wants to play a DD role would go RNG/NIN otherwise if he wanted to spend alot of money on a job and be the best at it.

This combo is not viable at higher level. Because Shurikens have no WS and are simply too expensive to use and theres no gun available while Ninja is also limited to a level 22 ammo. Eventually, you will get outdamaged by dual Katana.

Ok, so NIN/RNG is effective at low levels, what are you arguing about? Dan didn't come here and say 'OMG! NIN/RNG is t3h 1337z0r and better than NIN/WAR all the time omfglolz!' he provided logs that said NIN/RNG was effective at low levels. There are always a couple of topics in NIN forums about people whining about Blink tanking in these levels, and Dan gave them an alternative. (albeit a drastically more expensive one)

The problem is this. Theres no one that makes DD log and start a whole debate because of lowbie job combo. Simply because, they become totally irrivelent very quickly. Mostly when its just a combo for players that are RNG/NIN as main and want to go level NIN/RNG.

This thread is not for Ninja who wants to take this job and to a higher level and play it as a main. It should be in a Ranger forum. Because its nothing more than a alternative way of level'ing your sub.

[stray]

I know a few whm that sub summoner cuz they just can't stand levelling blm. nuke, nuke, nuke, rest. I think that's a good comparison tho... post 22 blm can be main healer in a pinch... I met a whm when I was in the jungle last week levelling blm sub that was happy to play main healer... I was just like... really? are you sure?

btw rekiem i think i saw you on seek the other day >< hit me up if you do AF3 o_O.

Back on topic tho. I respect why some people would want an alternate levelling path from 1-37. In all honesty I subbed thf up until I got utsusemi at almost 18 or so when my Thief was just a broke 30something pup. But in the dunes... even more when you're getting powerlevelled... just about anything goes really.

That nin/rng can be a kickass dmg dealer in the lowbie levels with pretty good gil thrown at it (Dan quoted 240k I believe?) is great but... past 30 and into the 40's and up there's no real shortage of damage dealers in comparison to tanks. Warriors just don't cut it like they used to, Samurai, Dragoon, and Drk can't really tank in a pinch, and, as has been stated countless times already ranged attacking ninjas are going to suffer with sub-par equipment in comparison to actual rangers.

In Dan's first post, he prefaced his logs with something along the lines of... "and don't tell me lowbie levels don't count!" I'm not saying they don't per se but I'm with Rekiem. I and alot of others are just saying don't get it twisted, that's not what a Ninja is and/or has to be in higher levels. And if you want to be a Nina... why would you possibly equip everything a ranger would and in essense... be a ranger. with black AF instead of green and unable to use high end bows, ammo, etc.?

For a Ranger with 300k to blow on levelling their sub thru the 20's it's probably great however.

As an aside I do have a fully levelled thief sub until the cap hits 125-130 (since nin/thf used to be the popular nin/war... alternative) and aside from flee'ing thru town with AF boots on I hate it. No double attack... no triple attack... just swing, swing, wait. swing, swing, wait. swing, swing, wait.

/sigh

[Maogin]

Maybe doing a log after lvl 40+ would be better

I think low lvls is too early to say who can deal dmg and who can not. Maybe NIN/RNG is good at low lvls, but at lvl 40+ i dont think they can work out

My log shows a pt of lvl 44-42:

http://home.earthlink.net/~nmemek/Fight.rtf

Nin/War
Drg/whm
Thf/nin
Rdm/blm
Blm/whm
WHm/blm

since Drg/whm couldnt really do dmg for the most part, i had to do something to keep up the chains, so spammed my NI spells to do some dmg, although, i know that most nin/war wouldnt do this since it costs a lot of money. But i did have haste spell on so it made it easier for me to spam my spells. If you dont like tanking, than i would think spamming your Ni spells would do more dmg than a NIN/RNG doing rng atk but you would prolly get all the hate =P

this was an old log and i dont the original log, i saved only this one because this is my highest dmg i did that day, but i got close to it on many occasions. This was a s/c fight, but log didnt parse my mb correctly, i mb'd twice for 102 dmg each than continue with my other spells

[Spider-Dan]

Re: Re: Clarification

Originally posted by Rekiem
This is like playing a BLM/WHM and use him as a main healer. Sure its possible, but WHM/BLM will always be better at it don't you think?

BLM has no native healing skill, while NIN does have native Marksmanship, native Throwing, etc.

So this thread is the same as suggesting a player who wants to start a DD job combo to be a NIN/RNG instead of a RNG/NIN. Its just that wrong.

Why play MNK/x instead of RNG/x? You will just do less damage.

Why play WAR/NIN instead of NIN/WAR? You will just have less shadows.

This thread was started by a player who doesn't have his WAR job level'ed and play RNG/NIN as a main job. He decided to go NIN/RNG to level his sub so he could go back to his main.

Let's suppose that you were accurate about my WAR job not being leveled. Does this have anything to do with the logs that I posted?

Its not about NIN/RNG being a DD. Its just some kind of justification for not playing NIN/WAR.

Yeah, and the justification is that I want to play NIN as a DD, and I'm trying to find an effective way to do it. So far, it's worked extremely well. But it's not allowed to try to find a way to make NIN a DD, regardless of its effectiveness, right?

Because anyone smart who wants to play a DD role would go RNG/NIN otherwise if he wanted to spend alot of money on a job and be the best at it.

Not if he wanted to be a ninja.

This combo is not viable at higher level. Because Shurikens have no WS and are simply too expensive to use and theres no gun available while Ninja is also limited to a level 22 ammo. Eventually, you will get outdamaged by dual Katana.

Like I said, we'll have to see some actual testing to see the point where NIN/RNG stops working. According to people like you, it never would have worked in the first place, and that's clearly wrong.

Not one of the people currently bashing NIN/RNG in this thread would have even considered admitting that NIN/RNG is perfectly viable for leveling a NIN sub to 37. I have no doubt that my logs will eventually prove that NIN/RNG is one of the best DDs in these levels.

The results of these logs have actually made me start to think about another subject... is /WAR even the best sub pre-37? Is a NIN tank more valuable without Utsu: Ni than a NIN DD with a gun? That's another question that log results like these will bring up. Right now, based on logs I'd have to take a NIN/RNG + other tank over a NIN/WAR + other DD, pre-37. (Let the violent cursing and shouting commence!)

[Rekiem]

I would take a NIN/WAR + RNG/NIN + THF/NIN and leave that NIN/RNG seeking PT :D

[hocuspocus]

nin/rng sucks.

[MMan530]

Originally posted by Narru
A) Nin/Rng cannot exist past level 66
B) Nin/Rng cannot exist pre 22 and post 45 due to equipment issues
If you go back and take a look at your logs, your constantly doing about 1:1 or 1:1.2 ratio more damage than the other members of your PT until you hit 28, in which case you doubled their damage.

Based on all of these issues, I feel that effectively, the Nin/Rng might excell at levels 28-33, which is a very small window to define such a job/subjob combination.

I quoted one of the few posts against Dan that bears mentioning. It holds a few points that cannot be ignored and also references a few recurring points. The parts of the post that I quoted cover what I'd call "recurring points."

Here's the claim: there's a niche for Nin/Rng as a DD.
Here's the argument against it (one of a couple, quoted above): You can only be a major DD from 22-45.
Here's why that argument fails (and something Dan has been trying to say): Not every DD class can be the best DD for their whole career. Does that mean they should just quit and choose the highest damage dealing class? No. I don't even think that Dan is suggesting Nin/Rng to be an endgame combo. The fact that Nin can do very respectable damage from 22-45 qualifies Nin/Rng. Guess what- thieves aren't damage dealers until level 33- should thieves just quit? Nins can't tank at all before they get Utsusemi:Ichi- should they just stop and let Paladins take over? No, of course not. That logic is silly. On the other side, Nin/Rng can't deal damage post 45? Okay, at that point- switch subs and become a tank. Subs aren't permanent. The fact still remains that Nins can deal reliable dmg via guns from level 22-45'ish. I've still yet to see that be accurately disputed.

The other major recurring argument is that Rng/Nin damage is greater than a Nin/Rng. I'm sure it is, but when your Rng hits level 60 and your Nin sub is level 22, you can switch to Nin/Rng and be a DD until level 37 if you so choose. This is just one of many avenues.

Rekeim, I'm also going to call out your analogy on black mages being the main healer. For this analogy to work, you should use a class that has some capability to heal, such as nin using a gun has capability to do dmg. I can tell you firsthand that red mages are able to be main healers. With the exception of certain cases, they cannot beat a whm at main healer, but they can indeed perform the role if no whm is available. It is in this way that a Nin can very easily be a damage dealer if the need arises. They may/may not be able to compete directly with the jobs designed to be damage dealers, but they can certainly perform the role.

Why is it that a Nin cannot be prepared for both tanking and DD? As a level 22 Nin, I'd recommend being prepared to tank or deal damage, as the party needs. Note in your search comment that you can sub War and Blink tank or you can sub Rng and deal damage. Versatility will only lead to more invites.

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by hocuspocus
nin/rng sucks.

Do you have anything else to say, or are you just going to continue making yourself look incapable of having an intelligent conversation?

Personally I think that post-37 ninja should be tank, and nothing else, because there are better damage dealers than nin/rng, but there is no better tank than nin/war.

From 22-36 though, nin/rng does seem pretty good. Even with the best possible gear, I still found myself frustrated at being main tank at these levels (utsu:ichi alone is not enough); so playing a damage dealer role instead of a half-a-tank role might be logical. Especially when you can outdamage most of the other 'dedicated' DD melees.

[Rekiem]

Originally posted by MMan530


Rekeim, I'm also going to call out your analogy on black mages being the main healer. For this analogy to work, you should use a class that has some capability to heal, such as nin using a gun has capability to do dmg.

A player using BLM/WHM has the capability to heal. Cure I, Cure II and Cure III. If your saying that they don't because BLM are not born with the Healing skill, thats really stupid
At your level, you should know that Cure is hardly dependent on the Healing Skill level because of the hard cap placed on it. Its much more based on MP, atleast during EXP parties.

Anyway, pretty much everyone agree that NIN/RNG is not something for higher levels. I made my point and prooved it. Now you guys can all log on your NIN/RNG and go play while it last. Then once you get out of Kazham, go level WAR

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Rekiem
A player using BLM/WHM has the capability to heal. Cure I, Cure II and Cure III. If your saying that they don't because BLM are not born with the Healing skill, thats really stupid
At your level, you should know that Cure is hardly dependent on the Healing Skill level because of the hard cap placed on it. Its much more based on MP, atleast during EXP parties.

Then why doesn't BLM/WHM work as main healer? You're arguing against your own position, now.

Not only do BLMs not have any healing skill, they don't get any healing spells, party buffs, status removal, etc. That means that every tool you get to heal is directly from your half-level subjob. For healing purposes, you function exactly as a WHM half your level, just with more MP and better equipment.

Furthermore, this is a horrible analogy to make anyway; if you are going to try to perform any role based solely on your half-level subjob, healing is it. (see: SMN/WHM) The actions of a healer don't have to go through a target check; your party members won't resist your Cures because your skill is too low.

The equivalent analogy would be a PLD/RNG; PLD gets no native ranged skill to begin with, so every aspect of his ranged damage comes directly from his subjob. NINs have their own ranged skill ratings to draw from. /RNG just enhances them.

[MMan530]

Originally posted by Rekiem
A player using BLM/WHM has the capability to heal. Cure I, Cure II and Cure III. If your saying that they don't because BLM are not born with the Healing skill, thats really stupid
At your level, you should know that Cure is hardly dependent on the Healing Skill level because of the hard cap placed on it. Its much more based on MP, atleast during EXP parties.

I'm not disputing that a BLM/WHM can heal.

However- you should at least make an equal comparison.
-Ninjas have a Marksmanship skill and Guns. Rangers have a Marksmanship skill and Guns.
-White mages have a Healing skill and Curative magics. Black mages do not have a healing skill or Curative magics.
-White mages have a Healing skill and Curative magics. Red mages have a healing skill and Curative magics.
If you ignore this based on the assumption that the healing skill plays no factor, you're just presenting sloppy arguments. Why not accept a direct comparison between two classes capable of doing marksmanship damage without a sub and two classes capable of healing without a sub? Don't try to dodge this. I am well aware that if you make this direct comparison, it only detracts from the rooting that your argument has.

Black mages make inefficient healers, and you're trying to mislead people into thinking that your comparison holds accuracy. You aren't factoring in that black mages don't get Cure II until level 22 and Cure III until level 42, which has an effect on their curing effieciency. In addition, as Dan mentions above, healing from subjobs is nowhere near trying to deal damage from subjobs. You may as well be comparing Nin/Rng to an Everquest class.

I'm happy for you if you feel as though you've won an invisible battle against the crowds shouting for Nin/Rng at level 75. I don't recall Spider Dan ever claiming the Nin/Rng potency at higher levels. As a matter of fact, he cites that he will not be taking Nin farther than level 37 and questions its potency as early as level 35. Amazing what reading comprehension can do, huh?

[John Doe III]

Any Ninja before 37 is pretty much not by all means better than Pally or War in my opinion. I mean, what's the point? Once shi2 comes along then sub warrior, till then as long as you do damage and have good equip to help with your odd subjob, then do what you want. Dont go by some Bard who keeps rambling on about how this isn't good job combo later levels and how he just likes more posts to go to his account...>.>. When in fact this was only talking about 24-28. Even though you should have gotten the same number of fights for each job Spider :sweat:

do not limit yourself to one job combo ><

[Apple Pie]

The results of these logs have actually made me start to think about another subject... is /WAR even the best sub pre-37? Is a NIN tank more valuable without Utsu: Ni than a NIN DD with a gun?

Spider, the role of NIN/RNG and NIN/WAR is different as we already know. We invite NIN/WAR because we want a tank. We invite NIN/RNG because we want an attacker. Am I correct?

Well, I don't think of any better tanks than 2*NIN/WARs (provoke each other) below LV40 (WHMs get Haste and a single NIN/WAR tank starts to work here). WAR24+/NIN12+ can do the same as we see a lot of WAR74/NIN37.

A single NIN/WAR tank needs someone to provoke while waiting for a recast of Utsusemi:Ichi but it is still better than regular WAR/MNK, I think. This is how I'm feeling while leveling my subs, especially WHM. I have "auto-pineapple juice" but it isn't realy necessary when my PT consists of 2 tanks with Utsusemi. Less heal = less downtime = more chains and XP. We already know that.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Apple Pie
Spider, the role of NIN/RNG and NIN/WAR is different as we already know. We invite NIN/WAR because we want a tank. We invite NIN/RNG because we want an attacker. Am I correct?

That's correct, but in exactly the same way that we can say that NIN/WAR is better than NIN/RNG at higher levels (even though they have totally different roles), we could potentially say that NIN/RNG is better than NIN/WAR at lower levels.

Specifically, the idea suggested by these log results is: would you gain faster exp by subbing RNG and letting your party get a different tank, or by subbing WAR and letting your party get a different DD? NIN/WAR is certainly not an outstanding tank before 37 (they are simply adequate), but NIN/RNG appears to be an excellent DD.

I would think that a two NIN/WAR party (pre-37) would have a serious lack of damage.

[MMan530]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
I would think that a two NIN/WAR party (pre-37) would have a serious lack of damage.

Nin, Nin, DD, DD, Whm, Support (or Nin, Nin, DD, DD, DD, RDM in some cases). I don't see any reason for concern.