Some NIN/RNG logs (long)

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Rekiem
Even if it was remotely effective, it would still be subpar because you wouldnt be able to use your tanking abilities and Ranger would still outdamage you.

Who says that the goal is to outdamage a RNG? That's not very likely to happen, no matter what job you play.

And NIN/RNG can still take advantage of their ability to deal with aggro, just in a different fashion than a main tank. You never have to worry about crossing the tank's hate line (who cares if you have aggro, you're a NIN) and in THF parties, there is no need to worry about aggro change headaches... THF can just fui behind you or the tank, with no worries either way. NIN/RNG also has excellent debuffs available (better than equivalent mage debuffs).

Note that these are not primary reasons to play NIN/RNG. If NIN/RNG can't do the damage to fill a DD role, none of that matters. But those are areas in which a NIN/RNG can do things that other damage dealers cannot. If NIN/RNG can do all of the above, and put out quality damage, there is no reason it's not viable.

As a matter of fact, why not play NIN/WAR and use the same gun and bullets. You would still get Provoke, Berserk and Double Attack later on. You only lose 10 accuracy from the ranger passive trait and the accuracy special. Point is, you would keep the NIN basic tanking skills while still remaining effective with a gun.

NIN/WAR using guns is a bad joke. No ranged WS means you can't DW Archer's, because you'll need to keep a katana in main for SC purposes. So you have a net of -20.5 RACC (assuming you have Archer's in sub, otherwise it's -31), no Sharpshot, no ranged WS. What's the point? You might as well just throw shuriken instead.

Btw, S-D, why dont make that your next test? Go NIN/WAR instead of NIN/RNG and log the damage.

There are 432943 NIN/WAR users who can do this. There are not very many people willing to log NIN/RNG damage. And as I said, I don't see any point in wasting bullets with no Sharpshot, no ranged WS, and a 20+ RACC penalty.

However, if you're suggesting I compare my damage to a meleeing NIN/WAR... well, there is a NIN/WAR in the logs above, and I'm sure I'll get a chance to party with one again.

[Rekiem]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Who says that the goal is to outdamage a RNG? That's not very likely to happen, no matter what job you play.

What is your goal then? I think its just to level your subjob so you can get back to RNG without making the effort to level WAR.

Basicaly, you're just a gimped version of a RNG/NIN. Nothing more. Your ninjustu wont help since the magic debuffs are much more usufull than the Ichi line and a RNG/NIN will take attack
just as well as a NIN/WAR because only Utsusemi Ichi is available at those levels so please give me a break with your ability to deal with aggro better than a RNG

Its nothing more than a gimped version of a RNG/NIN... Nothing else to add.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Rekiem
What is your goal then?

To outdamage every DRK, MNK, DRG, and SAM I party with as a NIN/RNG. And based on the log results, so far, so good.

Your ninjustu wont help since the magic debuffs are much more usufull than the Ichi line

More useful? Being resisted more often, costing MP, and having a weaker effect is "more usufull"?

and a RNG/NIN will take attack just as well as a NIN/WAR because only Utsusemi Ichi is available at those levels

And we all know that NIN's A rank evasion doesn't matter, right? With this astounding revelation, it is obvious that RNG/NIN is precisely equal to NIN/WAR as a tank pre-37 and post-74, as long as they can hold aggro. This is why you see 74RNG/NINs soloing HNM, just like NINs, right? Because evasion, debuffs, and parry simply don't matter.

[Gryff]

Originally posted by Rekiem
What is your goal then? I think its just to level your subjob so you can get back to RNG without making the effort to level WAR.

Basicaly, you're just a gimped version of a RNG/NIN. Nothing more. Your ninjustu wont help since the magic debuffs are much more usufull than the Ichi line and a RNG/NIN will take attack
just as well as a NIN/WAR because only Utsusemi Ichi is available at those levels so please give me a break with your ability to deal with aggro better than a RNG

Its nothing more than a gimped version of a RNG/NIN... Nothing else to add.

NIN/RNG serves a different purpose to RNG/NIN

if you have whm brd blm, the nin can debuff as well as pull and do decent damage.

Also if RNG/NIN is so superior nobody should play any other DD combo?

[Narru]

Ok, I haven't commented yet on Nin/Rng so far. I've only commented on the people commenting on SpiderDan's posts... here's an an argument which I feel should have been constructed by people such as hocuspocus and Rekiem, instead of the ones they originally posted. I feel that statements such as "Nin/Rng sucks" or "I don't see Nin/Rng ever being viable" are way too generic and broad. Hey, if you're gonna argue against something, might as well do it correctly right?

A) Nin/Rng cannot exist past level 66 - One word: Heavy Shot. Rng/Nin gets it at 66, but Nin/Rng will never get it. Sure Slug Shot was nice and all, but once you get to these levels, people want to do the LVL 3 renkeis. I believe the Nin/Rng with lower level WS's won't be able to compete damage wise at these levels with other melee people who are able to contribute to the level 3's. And if you're thinking about only using Slug Shot during HNM fights, think again. Ranger's themselves have reported problems with accuracy there, so I'd imagine a Nin/Rng would have even more problems.

B) Nin/Rng cannot exist pre 22 and post 45 due to equipment issues - Since Ninjas have an E rank with Bows, I'm not even going to consider that route. Additionally since Ninjas can't use crossbows, and since bronze bullets do pidly damage, Nin/Rng cannot really exist until level 22 when they have access to Bullets. Furthermore, since the last gun a ninja can use is at level 42, I don't see much of an upgrade path past level 45ish (not to mention they can't use Silver Bullets). Thus there is a niche level range where Nin/Rng can even exist. Let's focus only on that level range for now...

C) Ranged Accuracy problem - The major items for ranged accuracy early on (for a ranger) are the: dagger(s), ranged weapon, necklace, and rings. One would think, hey if a ranger has access to that much gear, if a ninja has access to say half that gear, they can shoot well as well...not necessarily. Necklace ranged accuracy for a ranger comes from the ranger necklace, which ninjas cannot use. Additionally, the only gun that gives +ranged acc for a ninja is a Pirate's Gun+1 at level 27. Archer's knives, which are a huge part of the ranged acc boosts for a ranger (sub /war or /nin), come at level 28.

If you go back and take a look at your logs, your constantly doing about 1:1 or 1:1.2 ratio more damage than the other members of your PT until you hit 28, in which case you doubled their damage. This is probably because you equipped an archer's knife. As is proven here, you're whole basis for if Nin/Rng can exist as a damage dealer rests mainly with if you can hit it or not. As you level higher, Nin/Rng will start to have larger and larger problems with accuracy (due to gear and skill). Not to mention you''ll only be getting the level 10 Ranger Accuracy Trait (again considering levels 22-45). I'd be interested in seeing how often your ranged WS's miss (which your logs don't show), as if you miss them often, you'll be more of a hinderance to your group than a help.

Yes other gear might come along which would help with your accuracy, such as the new ones introduced in last last patch: beater's earring, gun belt, maybe a coupld of the SAM/NIN/MNK only items (Fedd Tekko comes to mind), but I feel it's delaying the inevitable.

D) Tank vs Damage Dealer - If you're sole reason for Nin/Rng is to get to level 37 Ninja faster, I'd say go Nin/War and blink tank. There should be a higher demand for capable tanks between the levels 22-45 than for damage dealers. Heck I got my ninja/war from 20 ish to 37 in a week. I don't think I could have done that with Nin/Rng due to competition from other damage dealers at that level range.

E) THF's should out damage you levels 33-45. Most people who level through this range with a thief know how much more damage they do immediately after Viper Bite and before the other classes recieve their heavy hitting WS's. Add to the fact that they don't get any hate for ther hit as well, further allowing them to do more damage. Even if you're level 37 and become the role of "I'll shoot as fast as I can while blinking whenever I get aggro", you're still spending time to cast Utsusemi, which lowers your dps.

Based on all of these issues, I feel that effectively, the Nin/Rng might excell at levels 28-33, which is a very small window to define such a job/subjob combination.

Just my $0.02.

[Rekiem]

Narru, you said it the best. Thats pretty much that Im trying to say...
(*'-')b

Only thing I want to add is that a combo like this, only available for such a small window of time, is 100% pointless.

All the time you wasted making arguments to justify the usefullness of this combo could have been spend level'ing your NIN and the open window for this job combo would have been over. Its just that ridiculous.

[laicram]

Just wanna thank Spider-Dan and Narru for providing quality data on the subject, in a civil fashion. Great read.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Narru
A) Nin/Rng cannot exist past level 66 - One word: Heavy Shot.

Actually, this only affects gun NIN/RNG. NIN/RNG itself can still exist beyond LV66... but shuriken only. You would use the katana in your main to start LV3 (e.g. Blade: Ten -> SA+TA+Cross), and equip Archer's in sub. Throwing is A rank anyway, and you can still easily get more net accuracy with shuriken than with katana. Hell, even if you equipped two katana, you can still easily get more +RACC bonuses than +ACC bonuses, with RACC rings and AF alone.

Of course, high-level shuriken are prohibitively expensive, so in practice, I'd say that you're probably correct in saying that very few people WILL be NIN/RNG at that level. But "will not" and "cannot" are two different things.

B) Nin/Rng cannot exist pre 22 and post 45 due to equipment issues

While I somewhat agree that NIN/RNG starts at 22 (you can start throwing shuriken at 20 if you really wanted to, which I did), there is no basis for arbitrarily picking 45 as the point where gun fails. It's all well and good to say that the last gun upgrade is at 42, but unless you know how much damage NIN/RNG is doing relative to other DDs at that level, you can't begin to guess when that advantage ends.

C) Ranged Accuracy problem -
[...]
If you go back and take a look at your logs, your constantly doing about 1:1 or 1:1.2 ratio more damage than the other members of your PT until you hit 28, in which case you doubled their damage. This is probably because you equipped an archer's knife.

This is true; however, dual Archer's is a focal point of gun NIN/RNG. The fact that I was outdamaging almost everyone else without them was great, but I was just hoping to stay competitive. 28 was my money level, and from the looks of things, it paid off. Double the damage of everyone else is no minor feat.

The simplest way to address the whole ranged accuracy issue is this: at any given level, how much accuracy can I have with my A rank katana as a non-/RNG, and how much can I have with my C rank gun as a /RNG? Which total is greater?

Obviously, at LV30 I have the biggest relative advantage I will get; a total accuracy advantage of +40 from Accuracy trait, dual Archer's, dual Beetle Ring +1, and Beater's Earring. In addition, I'll get five Marksmanship skill from Gun Belt. The skill difference between A and C rank at this level is 7 points, but that's cut to 2 by Gun Belt. To my knowledge, at this level there is no +ACC equipment that a NIN would use that does not add equal RACC. At this level, ranged will blow the doors off of melee, no question.

Running the comparison up to 45 (the level where you say guns become unacceptable), I still can't think of any +ACC only equipment a NIN would use, and in fact you would probably drop a bit due to the fact that you would likely replace Fed. Tekko with Ochuido. The difference in skill between A and C rank weapons at this point is... 10. Again, cut that in half because of Gun Belt. Other melee are still WAY behind gun NIN/RNG in net accuracy.

To skip ahead again, at LV60 the difference is between A and C is 13... but now I'm getting an extra +12 (+22 total) from my second /RNG Accuracy trait. Add all my RACC gear, plus NIN AF, and NIN/RNG is still way out in front when it comes to net accuracy.

The short version of all of the above is, when NIN/RNG stops using guns, it'll be for damage/skillchain reasons, not for accuracy reasons.

D) Tank vs Damage Dealer - If you're sole reason for Nin/Rng is to get to level 37 Ninja faster, [...]

It is not. I am aware that (regardless of the fact that I may do much more damage than most other DDs) I will be waiting longer for parties than if I played a tank or mage class. This is part-and-parcel of being a DD. If I wanted non-stop parties to get to LV75 with minimal gil expenditure, I'd be a BRD.

E) THF's should out damage you levels 33-45.

I'm not sure how this is a specific argument against NIN/RNG. Does this mean that all DDs take a back seat to THF at 33? No one can compete with Viper Bite for a long, long time.

I don't even really view THF as competing with the DDs for parties per se; they have a unique role that can't be copied (until 60, when THF starts to become obsolete). If you have a party where you need a THF for hate control, you can't replace them with any other DD, regardless of their damage.

[_11of8]

So, how many times does Spider Dan have to say he's not comparing the damage of a Ninja/Ranger to a Ranger/Ninja. He's comparing his damage of a Ninja/Ranger to other damage dealers.

If people would just grasp that small part of his argument, they might be able to start debating him properly. As soon as I start seeing someone comparing Ninja/Ranger equipment to any other damage dealer then a Ranger/Ninja, say a Dark, or Thief, then you'll have some basis for a debate. I've seen a bit here and there, but more in side comments then full, detailed arguments.

The whole basis for his experiments were from an earlier thread about someone asking how ninja could be a viable damage dealer rather then a blink tank.

Remember, it's non Ninja/Ranger vs. the damage of a Ranger/Ninja, it's Ninja/Ranger vs. all other damage dealers, excluding mages.

I think Narru hit the nail on the head though with the level range, even though the argument was tailored towards a rangers comparable damage, but again, not of S-D's theory.

*Well, what do you know. S-D posted before me. >.< oh well*

[Narru]

Originally posted by Rekiem
Only thing I want to add is that a combo like this, only available for such a small window of time, is 100% pointless.

All the time you wasted making arguments to justify the usefullness of this combo could have been spend level'ing your NIN and the open window for this job combo would have been over. Its just that ridiculous.

:mad: Again I don't like broad comments like these. Almost nothing is really truely 100% pointless, you just need to look at it from a different angle.

Time is not wasted. We experimented with a new combination instead of conforming to cookie cutter jobs like a majority of what everyone else does. That take courage to do, to stand in the middle of a crowd and claim that you are different. Like in this instance, say you're someone who absolutely hates to level warrior, but wants to level ninja to level 37. Instead of going the Nin/Thf way, you are provided with another option at your disposal.

[Narru]

Originally posted by _11of8
As soon as I start seeing someone comparing Ninja/Ranger equipment to any other damage dealer then a Ranger/Ninja, say a Dark, or Thief, then you'll have some basis for a debate.

/cheer! /emote points to point E of my argument

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Narru
/emote points to point E of my argument

I would encourage you to obtain a log of THF/x vs. RNG/x (and DRK/x, and MNK/x) damage at LV33 before you decide that losing to THF = gimp job.

[stray]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
NIN/WAR using guns is a bad joke. No ranged WS means you can't DW Archer's, because you'll need to keep a katana in main for SC purposes. So you have a net of -20.5 RACC (assuming you have Archer's in sub, otherwise it's -31), no Sharpshot, no ranged WS. What's the point? You might as well just throw shuriken instead.

I think Narru hit the nail on the head with all the reasons nin/rng just... isn't viable past a point. and I respect the damage comparisons... it definitely gives rangers a reason to not dread levelling their ninja, or at least gives them a viable way to survive the jungles. But a ranger levelling their sub isn't an endgame, or for that matter even mid level Ninja.

I think the above is a good example of why so many people who love and revere the ninja class are so adamantly against nin/rng. It completely detaches itself from pretty much *every* job defining Ninja skill in favor of a Ranger's, up to and including Katanas. The only thing that remains is enfeebling and element weakening ninjutsu.

[Mitsu]

Having lvl 75 NIN and having LOTS of experience throwing and shooting with my nin, Id have to say the NIN/RNG past lvl 60 will only become remotely decent if the add throw ws. YES shuriken do nice damage but even with +60 Rng Acc and +15 throw skill with prelude I missed IT golems in ruavitau like 7/10 throws. Now with Rng sub thats only 24 I had a missrate of 2/10. Following the trend of ranged ws and D of weapon , a manji or fuma would produce nice and damaging ws. combined with the fact that S-E should make barrage compatible with throw you have a nice damage dealer in NIN/RNG (NIN/WAR is good damage dealer as well if you build it a ceartain way). But for the present NIN/RNG can only be good at lower lvls hell i even went sam/rng and outdamaged all but Rng/Nin with meditate and mixture of gkatana ws and bow><
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[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by stray
I think the above is a good example of why so many people who love and revere the ninja class are so adamantly against nin/rng. It completely detaches itself from pretty much *every* job defining Ninja skill in favor of a Ranger's, up to and including Katanas. The only thing that remains is enfeebling and element weakening ninjutsu.

Uhh, what? Provoking is a "job defining" ninja skill? Berserk? Double Attack?

If you wanted to really play a textbook ninja without whoring your subjob JAs, the best solution would be /RNG and spam shurikens/ninjutsu till your wallet explodes.

The main difference between NIN/RNG and NIN/WAR is Provoke vs. Guns, neither of which are "job defining ninja skills." NIN/RNG still uses ninjutsu. It's not RNG/NIN.

Necessary disclaimer: This is NOT a "Ninjas aren't meant to tank!" post.