Monks CAN TANK! (hear me out)

[Atis]

Originally posted by Aneyeisuponyou



While tanking as a monk you'll most likely have defender on, I know I do. And it greatly reduces the damage dealt.

Exactley. Because of the formula used in h2h damage, a monk will take a bigger damage hit than a war or drk while using defender. Reason being that Wars/Drk's using 2handed weapons have the damage of their weapon to help punch through the defense, so the lost of attack is not as signicifcant. Monks on the other hand rely more heavily on that attack to get through the defense.

With my Gaxe I could still hit It's for 50-75 Damage with Defender on, where as a Galka monk had his damage drop from 35-45 per hit to about 15.

[modnar]

(slowly walking into the discussion, trying not to make any sudden moves...)

Hi! Original poster her! :sweat:


Let me just bring into attention an other detail from what I originaly said:

"Monks! GO TRAIN!!"

I think that most monks out there are not at (or anywhere near) their full potential because they do not train. Our skills are not developed to where they should be because most monks try to NEVER tank... or do anything other than deal out damage in a party...

And let me just ask 1 more thing: Counter Attack... ever thought that maybe its a skill that needs to be developed as well? I mean, we never see it as a statistic in th Skills, but I thought that it might need to be developed as well. It does not go up as a "skill" as the monk levels automaticaly, but needs to be used for the monk to be better at using it... Is that a true statement?

Anyways... Monks! GO TRAIN!!

(runs for cover!)

[Thark601]

how the hell are we suppose to train when our gaurd goes up .1 skill every 10 fights even tanking?
sure i could solo but that maybe doubles the amount it goes up and if your not farming gil it's a ridiculous waste of time

and hi topic poster here
i beleive anyone that knows what there talking about has already disproved your theory in this thread

[laicram]

I think the whole concept is missed because no new player picks Mnk and thinks, "I'm gonna tank til lvl 38!"

No, most new Mnks muddle their way to 30 and miss their opportunity to train guard and be more useful in general.

For example, at early lvls Mnks cry cuz they do minimal damage to clips/pugs. They equip expensive str and dex items and see minimal results. Wouldn't it be WAY more useful tanking in a full set of cotton gi (only 1 less def than lizard), and 2 leather rings? Or beetle armor/vit+2 ring from 21-27?

I would go as far to say, that Mnk/War is SUPPOSED to tank at low levels, to make use of their high HP and to compensate for such a weak attack vs high defense mobs.

[modnar]

Well, I am not too worried about my theory being "disproved", I was more interested in it being discussed and explored by other fellow monks with experience and opinion.

I still do believe that monks, being a relatively simple class to play, has more potential than what is being demonstrated by the general monk population. It is an easy ride for most monks because they are not required, as a norm, to do anything more than swing to gain experience with a party. The monk can be alot more interesting than that in my opinion.

(In a more selfing viewpoint: Simply put, I don't like simply standing there and swinging my fists... I do believe that a monk can amount to more.)

Tanking happens to be one of those things that gets overlooked by most monks, sometimes simply because of the "popular facts" rather than the core truths. And since its not only popular, but also less "problematic" to NOT tank in a party, the full potential of both the monk as a class and his/her ability to tank are not fully explored.

I am not sure if anybody noticed, but I avoided mentioning any subjobs or races in my argument because I wanted to see how far the discussion would go without those elements. I wanted to discuss ONLY the monk attributes.

That being said, imagine what can be done with a monk WITH a subjob that works towards something other than simple damage dealing...

In this particular post, the variable in question is TANKING. And what has been accomplished in this thread is the understanding that, perhaps tanking is a dish the monk can try to spice up his life every now and then...

A little variety in both food and gameplay, goes a long way.

[Cali]

Originally posted by TMPikachu
to sum it up

the point of this thread is "Monks can take hits, if needed (with proper equipment, of course"

not "Move over Paladin, 'cause Monk is makin' you his bitch!"

Disproved the theory.... It's called a debate.... >.>;

I totally agreed with TMPikachu... I didn't read anyone saying MNK are the born-tank, they just said MNK can tank if they have to... hense that *points at quote*

I am now taking my MNK to 75, Chakra is fun... and no, as a MNK, I choose stat-bonus over DEF, so my equips are mostly 10+ levels under my current level... so tanking isn't fun at 39, but I can still tank, if I really have to... though if there is a PLD, NIN or whatever better in team, i will leave them with tank duty... and rarely will you see a PLD/DRK... so I usually don't have to tank now, just a scapegoat for THF, because no one seems to want to be a scapegoat...

Leveling combat skill isn't a waste of time, it's boring, but it's worth it, I don't know how much anyone knows about the game, but to me, I think combat skills are important, be that weapon or defensive skills..... But yes, leveling defensive skill is much easier said than to be done

[Taoist]

yeah a little off topic.... ok WAY off topic but can anyone tell

me a good method of training my Combat Skills because at lvl 35

I'd rather not take aggro away from PLD that works so hard at

what he does...

and training off EASY PREY's actually only raises

".1 guard skill every 10 fights."

[Atis]

Oh I fully agree that a monk can take some hits when needed *much rather see a monk take a hit than a whm*, I'm just saying that as a main tank they are less efficient than a Pld/War/Nin.

[Thark601]

Originally posted by Taoist
yeah a little off topic.... ok WAY off topic but can anyone tell

me a good method of training my Combat Skills because at lvl 35

I'd rather not take aggro away from PLD that works so hard at

what he does...

and training off EASY PREY's actually only raises

".1 guard skill every 10 fights."

dunno what to tell ya... i cap my evasion and h2h every lvl, did the majority of the tanking till 30, and my gaurds nowhere near capped...

the only thing you should really worry about anyways is evasion and to do that you should still be tanking enuff per lvl to at least 40 to keep it capped...

[Taoist]

okay yeah i shoulda asked for tips on "guard" rather than H2H skills and evasion because those are always capped for me as well.

[modnar]

Well, here is what I tried doing, and it worked to an extent. See how it works for you.

-Put on your worst subjob (like a lvl1 BMG, etc).
-Take off everything! Go fight "naked" to make your DEF the lowest you can. If you happen to have something that adds to INT (or anything non-melee) and lowers something useful for melee, equip it.

The idea being to make you worst at damage dealing so that you do not kill the enemy too fast, and make you worst at defending and evading, so that your "guard" skill has a better chance of being used.

Start with the easiest of the easiest and work your way up. A good way to know what you should be fighting is to look at your guard skill and see what it has reached, goto

http://www.ausystem.org/~aushacho/gbox/ff/skill-e.html

(or any other skill chart website) and see what job level the skill you have corresponds to. Then try to remember what you used to fight as an "even match" or "decent challenge" or even "tough" as that job level.

Fight in a manner so that you make the battle last as long as possible so that your gaurd is used more.

Remember, gaurd will have more trouble working if the mob is too strong in comparison to its level. If your guard is somewhere in the 20-30 (which correspond to lvl 7-9), it will not work often against a mob that is lvl 30+...


At least that is what I am doing, and I ask my fellow Monks to correct me if I am wrong.

(btw: this is how I train!)

[Aneyeisuponyou]

This thread is starting to annoy me. Monks =/= a main tank. Now be queit and worry about your sub job instead of your 2 points of guard.

[modnar]

Aneyeisuponyou, I know you might disagree or have a seperate opinion, but please don't be annoyed. Its a discussion, and your input is realy valuable! Just don't let the different opinions or discussion annoy you... enjoy the forum!

In any case, Aneyeisuponyou does make the point of concentrating of your subjob leveling instead of taking the time of "training" the guard skill.

I understand where Aneyeisuponyou is coming from with that opinion, but I tend to disagree...

My 1st Opinion:
True, leveling the subjob will have a greater effect on the character's performance in comparison to training less used skills such as "guard". However, that is the flaw which I see in the monk job/class: we are not fully trained nor are we meeting the full potential!

People can say, "Monk is not meant to... " and "Monk is only meant to ....", but those are opinions and norms rather than facts! The monk class has a lot more going for it than what other people have specified over and over again. We have skills that are latent (asleep) and even we, as Monks, are not realizing that as a fact!

My 2nd Opinion: (more out there, and expect most people will disagree with this)
Every Monk has a powerful tank somewhere within that has not been uncovered. And when I say powerful, I am not saying BEST, but saying that instead of people that are forming a party saying "Look for a tank: either PAL, WAR, or NIN"... people can be saying "Look for a tank: either PAL, WAR, NIN, or Monk!"

Its just that most monks have not unearthed the power within because of the lack of training.

I say it again: MONKS! GO TRAIN!!!

[Atis]

Unlike a Warrior, which bases his tanking ability on his DEF statistic, the Monk has a combination of statistics the work to the same effect: Evade, Parry, and Guard. Evade to simply avoid the hit, parry to knock the hit away, and gaurd to cut the hit damage in HALF if it lands.

And we've argued against your reasons.
Firstly To use Gaurd you can only be using hth weapon in which case you cannot you parry. To use parry you must use a weapon *ie staff or club* where you will lose out on your gaurd ability.

A monks evade is not high enough to distinguish itself above others or to equal a ninja/thf. While monks do get a B+ in evasion, they get very low Agility. Dodge is half descent, but not enough to justify being a main tank, as well in a constant pulling group will only be up 40% of the time.

Once those skills are up, a monk would be able to tank. He will be: Counter attacking, and if not, he will be evading, and if not, he will be parrying, and if not, he will be defending, and if not, he will be gaurding, and THEN if not he will take the hit!!!

once again, you cannot parry and gaurd, only one or the other. Counter attack is nice but doesn't activate enough to make it something to rely on.

Thats fine that you feel you can tank, and if your a tank in a group and feel that you do a sufficient job then great. However personally myself and every single group i've been do not feel the same way. When I bring in a monk, I do it for dmg and a support tank, but not a main.

[laicram]

Kazham is a great place to up your guard skills. Mandra double hits make you guard alot. Don't worry about your skill being terribly under-developed. In this case, you gain guard points very quickly (+.3, +.4, even +.5) Huh? whaddya mean you didn't tank in kazham while you were there? =O

Bilinear made an excellent point earlier about food. I've been buying fish kabobs and boiled crab, and my defense surpasses Wars and Pals in better armor that don't eat.

If you shell out the cash for food and your teammates don't, surprise - YOU'RE THE BEST TANK IN THE GROUP! Simple as that. I'll gracefully step down from the role of main tank if someone could beat my defense number.

Back to training guard, as long as you keep tanking vs IT mobs, your Guard will catch up to other tank's Parry skills.

I wanna settle this whole issue of defensive skills (counter/evasion/guard) "compensating" for lower defense. Basically, it doesn't. DEF is what you count on 100% of the time when tanking. IMO, Counter/Guard/Evasion = Parry/Shield/Evasion. Close enough for it not to matter.

On a defensive skill-related note, WAR/MNK equipped with Axe/Shield gets Parry/Shield/Counter/Evasion. Now that's bad-@$$