~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

[Mithrael]

You can check weaknesses of individual mobs at:

http://ff11.s33.xrea.com

when run through a translator, "Protruding" is piercing, and "Case Hitting" is blunt.

here is one example of an actual test (not based on hearsay) on these boards:

http://ffxionline.com/forums/showthr...t=bullet+blunt

There is a reason that lv.70+ RNG don't level in King Ranperre's Tomb. Do a search on the area on any given night...



The difference on steelshells and other High Defense mobs is purely attributed to attack differences. DRKs have significantly higher attack than other melees. As your attack approaches the mobs defense in a downward trend, you take a significant Damage cut. 15 attack can most definitely warrant a 30 damage decrease if that 15 puts the Dark above the Attack/Defense line, and the DRG below it.

You can learn a lot more about attack, str, and defense effects in other threads on this board. there is a very large thread abot it in the monk forum.

Unfortunately, I caused the thread to stray off-topic a bit more, sorry abot that. Hope this clears it up though.

P.S. the word still is exponential, but for smaller values of x

[Omni]

Originally posted by Drogen_Shomuro

As for dmg on crabs though, I find my dmg sometimes varies ALOT, anywhere from 20 to 80. I'm not sure why though, but this might suggest some kind of step increase, and when you're teetering on the edge of that step, the random modifier makes a big difference. ...Or maybe I'm just missing the Scissor guard, I dunno.

To Omni-Ragnarok, I find that almost any ws gets gimped severely against crabs without sneak attack. I was in a PT with a drk, and whenever he missed sneak due to the mob turning or something, cross reaper would hit for only 200 or so (It hit for 7 once -_- ). Conversely, I went to a PT subbing thf once, and SA + wheeling thrust would land for 300-400 on crabs consistently.

yea thats what i was talking about. the dmg variance is really large. i understand that drk might have more str than a drg but i just find it odd that the dmg variance is so wide. 25-75 is not even in the same ball park.

i was just curious about dmg type vs. armor types. thx for the nice insight guys

[Nebulus]

Crabs are resistant to piercing type weapons and weak to slashing type weapons i.e scythes and greatswords. Using a spear on a crab is about a 25% damage penalty, while using it on flying mobs is a 25% damage bonus.

As a 75 DRG I will throw in a little input on the matter. Every job excells on differently in different situations.

DRG Vs. SAM: Samurai are steady damage dealers and wether you like it or not will always get tp faster than DRG. Yes DRG get TP very fast (second fastest IMO) but genearally SAM never use thier full TP output. Hit for hit DRG usually tend to hit about 20-30 more a hit than SAM and our wyvern add an additional 30ish damage. DRG on the upside can usually throw in an extra few WS and get away with it beacuse we can shed hate unlike SAM. SAM have much more reliable ws like Tachi: Gekko and Kasha to fall back on, and are much more looked for in HNM fights due to the fact they can Spam WS quite easily. SAM are great SC partners around lev 50-55 and 70-75. Sam can also take hits better

DRG Vs. DRK : Dark Knight do slightly less damage hit for hit compared to DRG. Beserked we usually only do 30 more tops. You usually dont see many DRK/WAR so this really only pertains to DRK/THF. DRG take hits alot better than DRK because they have the defense of an infant. Where DRK comes into play is their very high damage WS and ability to debuff and transfer hate to the tank. DRK are really only looked for in HNM LS for their ability to stun and ocassionaly trich HNM onto the tank. DRK are excellent sc partners 60-75 making both light and dark SC. DRG usually get tp alot faster than DRK and tend to usually hit more often.

DRG Vs. MNK : MNK are all about thr DOT. MNK get tp about as fast as DRG and easily outclass us fighting bones. They can take hits very well and heal themselves somewhat making them highly versitile. DRG and MNK damage are almost equal on non bone pts. Its is very hard to determine who has the greater TOD, beacuse they hit faster, but we hit harder. MNK are ok SC parnters but your pretty much limited to Wheeling Thrust > Dragon kick your entire career. MNK are highly saught after in HNM fights beacuse a MNK with MND gear can Chi blast for big damage.

DRG Vs. RNG : RNG will always outdamage DRG, unless the RNG is horribly gimp. RNG have a decent TP gain rate, but lack defense and must watch hate closely. RNG are not good SC partners. They are high looked upon in HNM fights due to their accuracy and high damage. DRG aren't grossly outclassed by RNG mind you.

DRG Vs. THF : THF had ok TOD anbd hits well. Their ability to keep hate on the tank and pull is a great tool. DRG will do much more damage than THF, but THF is a good SC partner 35-45 and 65-75. Thf job is to deal damage as well as hate control. THF mainly are only in HNM fights to increase drops.

DRG in a nutshell. Our high damage, decent armor, hate contol abilities, and great versatility in almost every DD job to make SC SHOULD make us a valued DD. Unfortunately our stereotypes get the best of us a great deal of time and we suffer. So my plee is to invite a DRG once and see what we can do. You might be pleasently surprised.

Here is my equipment if you were wondering.

Nebulus 75/37 DRG/WAR Kujata

Weapon : Collasal Lance (Please some1 put a Dreizack in AH...)
Head : Optical Hat and Wyvern Helm
Neck : Merman's Gorget
Ear1 : Mermaid's Earing
Ear2: Assualt Earing
Body : Assualt Jerking ( Hecatomb Harness [Can I have It?] )
Gloves : Wyrm Finger Gauntlets and Hecatomb Mittens
Ring1 : Flame Ring
Ring2 : Flame Ring
Back : Amemet Mantle +1
Waist : Life Belt
Pants : Wyrm Brais/ Conte Consiales
Boots : Wyrm Greavs/ Hecatomb Boots

[Kafeen]

I was in a party with a Ranger yesterday with my parser running to compair the damage. I was actualyl plesantly suprised.

RNG/NIN
Total Fights: 46
Average Damage: 1124.37
Average Percent: 32.44
Average Accuracy: 69.84
Estimated DPS:

DRG/WAR (ME)
Total Fights: 49
Average Damage: 880.12
Average Percent: 30.59
Average Accuracy: 70.9
Estimated DPS:


WYVERN
Total Fights: 16
Average Damage: 251.56
Average Percent: 7.24
Average Accuracy: 67.49
Estimated DPS:

If it hadn't have been for my wyvern dying on the second fight due to getting in the way on the thief's SATA onto out tank and me needing to wait almost 2 hours to get it back I would have (just) had a higher damage rate than the RNG.

[Mithrael]

Crabs are resistant to piercing type weapons and weak to slashing type weapons i.e scythes and greatswords. Using a spear on a crab is about a 25% damage penalty, while using it on flying mobs is a 25% damage bonus.

This is not true. Crabs are absolutely not weak to slashing weapons. I am 99.5% certain that the are not strong to piercing.

I would like to point you to another website:
http://mysterytour.web.infoseek.co.j...000mobinfo.htm
Please note that the modifiers are empty for piercing damage.

Now, unfortunately, I cannot test this myself to post screenshots demonstrating my point. DRK's only piercing melee weapon is dagger, and dagger DMG modifiers are too low to show a 25% difference.

So, I ask that some lv.75 drg with capped Staff, Sword, and Spear perform the following test.

You will need:

Any HQ elemental staff except Light or Fire
A Spear or a Spear+1
(ideally, you would test a 1-hd sword too, but it seems that all of the reasonably priced ~40dmg swords are epee/rapiers for DRG, which is rumoured to be piercing damage. I have no conclusive results for this since i cannot equip rapier-class swords either.)

Equip the spear, unequip all attack+ and str+ equipment and observe your base attack with only your spear equipped, have a PLD or ninja tank without attacking a Steelshell that cons even match in Boyahda. Attack 20 times, disregard all criticals, tally and average your damage.

Equip the staff, add attack gear (assault earring/jerkin, etc.) until you have the same attack value as the spear. Attack 20 times, desregard all criticals, tally and average your damage.

If you accidentally kill the crab before your results are complete, attack another even match steelshell.

What is the difference in damage? is it similar, is there a clear 25% difference? With a 40 dmg weapon you should be hitting for about 40-50 per hit, so you should see a clear 10-12 damage difference between the two averages.

Truth be told, PLD is a better person to perform this test. PLD has access to Broadswords, Rapiers, Polearms, Staves, Clubs, and Greatswords.

This exercise is somewhat pointless though. This data has already been collected by some of the great people in the FFXI community.

[Nebulus]

Sorry that was a mistype. I ment to say Crabs are strong against piercing and nuetral to weak to slashing type

[Balodoth]

According to weapon damage rating

In my experience fighting crabs, the damage done by each kind of weapon is directly correlated to the damage value in its description. I've seen no particular weapon get any sort of bonus other than the fact it's a high damage weapon or the character has higher ATK, nor have I seen any weapon get a negative damage modifier. The only real pattern is that as damage rating lowers, the usual damage done levels off. That is to say the correlation isn't linear.

[Zanta]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

I myself am a DRK that being said i would like to add i love dragoon, mearlu not my first pick but easily second. anyway my only point here is that with lv 1 rse and no sub all jobs ore equal, but have a different place in a party (i.e. drk = DD dragoon, in my opinion, = DoT, etc)
so i dont agree with any posts about one job is better than another

P.S. no offence intended whatsoever but it seemed to me that even though you said you hated hearing stuff like DRK IS 1337 KFJDKSDJ you seemed to be saying same thing about DRG in your first post....just less like a retard

[Icemage]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

Umm... Zanta. You realize that you just revived a thread that is 8 months old, right? The last post previous to yours was on 1-20-2005. I doubt anyone involved in this discussion even remembers it.


Icemage

[Nodachi]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

SAM, please...don't make me laugh any more then I already am. I get enough TP each battle to ws twice, every single battle.

Monk, again...laughable. Monk only outshines me in damage against Bones. Nothing else. Oh my, and guess what! I can heal my own status effects to! Its called the wyvern. You people need to learn about it.

I havn't read anything past your first post but I was expecting a whole lot more from "Time fo rintelligent discussion" as the title of this thread. This is the most ridiculous garbage I've read from someone trying to look good.

First off. Let's ignore the fact that you think as a DRG you outgain TP of a SAM. The real thing that's wrong with this picture is the fact you say you get enough TP for 2 WS per battle. What the hell is taking so long to finish off that mob that would make you want to even brag about being able to do two WS per battle. If you or your PT were decent, one set of WS should be more than enough to finish off a mob.

And for MNK. There is no melee in the game now which can consistantly outperform MNK's raw damage on any exp mob. Nuff said. Whether you like that or not, whether that settles with you or not it's the truth.

EDIT: I'll go back and read all the previous posts now. Just had to post that first.

Double Post Edited:

When you have too many melee jobs there will always be one that's worst by comparison. Drg is in no way the worst, but because the quest is 100x harder then Drk all the idiots and sheep flock to that job.

Look at Drk and Drg AF quests, which one is harder? Drg, and for a reason, because it's better.

This is wrong. The real reason DRG quests seem harder is because of this. DRK was created in a time where the current level cap was 50 and was raised to 55 not too long after. Dragoon was created in a time where the current level cap was 60, shortly after was raised to 65. Meaning people had the ability to take on tougher challenges. The game had been out longer and people knew how to approach quests/missions. Quest difficulty has nothing to do on how 'good' a job is.

If you havn't realized by now, you're either blind or havn't been playing long but SE is all about balance. SE doesn't make any job with the intentions of it being ranked as being higher or lower than others. Sometimes people find things to capitalize on jobs making them seemingly better than others when they're meerley different, not better per-say.

[Zanta]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

>.< srry i didnt look at date, i'l be more carefull next time

[DakAttack]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

This is wrong. The real reason DRG quests seem harder is because of this. DRK was created in a time where the current level cap was 50 and was raised to 55 not too long after. Dragoon was created in a time where the current level cap was 60, shortly after was raised to 65. Meaning people had the ability to take on tougher challenges. The game had been out longer and people knew how to approach quests/missions. Quest difficulty has nothing to do on how 'good' a job is.

If you havn't realized by now, you're either blind or havn't been playing long but SE is all about balance. SE doesn't make any job with the intentions of it being ranked as being higher or lower than others. Sometimes people find things to capitalize on jobs making them seemingly better than others when they're meerley different, not better per-say.

Does this make sense to anybody? I think the quoted post was about player abilitiy compared against quest difficulty in choosing a job, but how is the difficulty changed based on people's ability to complete it?

And I suppose the Drg vs Drk AF arguement could be more oppinion, but Dragoon AF is rather hard to obtain compared to Dark Knight's. Dragoon's is also more useful than Dark Knight's. Maybe this is because SE limits our equipment choices, and Dark Knights have a lot more to choose from, or maybe it really is because the quests are harder for Drg?

[Rai|Kye]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

and drk can wear haubergeon hauberk and adaman stuff ><
i would always prefer a drk over 66

[fuz]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

I generally prefer both drg and drk, not drk over a drg since they can SC together.
.
.
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Actually drk and war go better. ;>.>

[Nodachi]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

Does this make sense to anybody? I think the quoted post was about player abilitiy compared against quest difficulty in choosing a job, but how is the difficulty changed based on people's ability to complete it?

No, 'the quoted post' was someone saying that DRG quests are more difficult than DRK ones, thus making DRG the better job.