~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

[Khaeos]

Originally posted by Mithrael

That's exactly what I was thinking The mobs is usually dead within 10 seconds after the first skillchain [/QUOTE]

I said I recieved the TP for 2 ws's. Never said that I used the TP. What that means is that I can do continous SC's, just like a SAM and other jobs. It was meant as a comparison.

Xythalia, thank you for posting again. I also made a response to you in that thread, not sure if you got it or not...but I'll post it here as soon as I find the thread.

Edit - Some melee jobs also give the wyvern what we call a "balanced" quality. This is to where it will do a breath attack if you have no status infliction, but if you do have one...it will ignore the breath attack and heal you. Ninja is the most notable of the balanced wyvern jobs as well as some others.

[Mithrael]

Eh, I'm no DRG-hater either, but such bold claims require a little backup. The point I was trying to make is that with the exception of the chain #1 and chain #2 battles, the mob is usually dead awfully fast. 60-90 seconds.

Anyway, backup:

I don't know what lance you use... so i'll guess it has a 478 delay, since that seems common.

With a 478 delay lance you get 11.9 TP per hit
It takes 9 hits to reach 100%tp (107.1%TP, more specifically)
The delay for a 478 lance is 7.96 seconds (assuming you don't jump or do something else to interrupt auto-attack)

Assuming double attack kicks in 5% of the time, you get .75 extra swings in the 15 swings it'd take you to get to 200%tp (17 swings - 1 jump - 1 high jump = 15). Just because, let's say you get 1 double attack every fight.

Assuming you use both jump and high jump (and both hit), you have 100% melee accuracy, and double attack kicks in once, you'll have 100%tp in ~48 seconds. Of course it's a bit more since the jumps interrupt your auto-attack timer. Now, You use your weapon skill, and have 11.9tp, so you only need 8 more hits to get to 100%tp again. So in about 64 seconds you're good to go again.

Even if you didn't use your weapon skills...
jump, jump, double attack once, and 14 additional swings takes 111 seconds at 100% acc.

Total time, assuming both jump and high jump are ready, and you have 100% accuracy, is ~112 seconds.

Now, back to reality, you can only jump and high jump every other battle, and you're most likely at or under 80% melee accuracy. So 112*1.2 = 134.4. Which including a pull isn't possible on chain 4 or 5+.

So what you meant to say is that during the 1st and 2nd battles in a chain you are able to gain enough TP to skillchain 2ce.


DRG do gets an unecessarily bad wrap, but posting so exaggeratively doesn't get most poeple to reconsider their posistions. Most people know either intuitively or from direct experience that DRG can't "get enough TP each battle to ws twice, every single battle." They also know that DRGs, except in perhaps unbelievably boundary cases, will outdamage RNGs on flies in Boyahda (though they will own DRKs or SAMs by 10-20%).

However, your point is valid that your wyvern damage is generally ignored. The new filter system is a real boon for dragoons, as your wyvern will no longer be excluded by the chat filters. People should be generally aware of your wyverns output now, especially if your wyvern gets luck and chooses the right breath for the magic burst.

[Khaeos]

The AF helm for DRG makes sure that the wyvern uses the element that the mob is weak too. Its just up to the SCers to actually choose an SC that the mob is weak to as well for it to work.

As to all your figures above, thats nice and all. But when I say that I get enough TP to do two WS's in a battle, please don't immediately jump up and contradict me. You have never partied with me whatsoever, and others have. Saying I am wrong without partying with me, or knowing me is conjecturing. Things happen differently in every party, and it can not be run off a base formula that every party expects to adhere to.

And I said I had the TP for two weaponskills. Did I say that I USED them in one battle? I don't believe I did.Whether or not I have a complete 100% TP twice in the same battle, or 100% and then 89%-90%, the result is still the same. I can SC twice if need be.

As for the mob being killed within 60-90 seconds, that is if you have a very good party. Sadly, for all of us, that isn't something we have the joy of taking part in. Because of our bad rap, I as a DRG have to take and grasp every party invite I get, whether or not it turns out bad or good. My average killing time in the STP I was in was 90-110 seconds, as a base guess. The setup was DRG, DRG, DRK, RDM, WHM, BLM. And it was nothing but constant SCing, 24/7.

Edit - Oh, and I can use Jump twice in a battle, not once. High Jump I use once every battle at most. Seeing as I unload my Jumps at the very beginning of a battle, it enables me to Jump yet again towards the late middle - end of the fight. That 11% TP makes all the difference.

[Mithrael]

There is no need to be defensive. Your topic implies you wish to have an intelligent discussion. I am not in any way defaming you, or flaming. I'm just being realistic.

You said, "I get enough TP each battle to ws twice, every single battle." This means you gain sufficient TP to use a weapon skill twice every battle. I'm not putting words in your mouth here. Technically, if you get enough TP each battle to use a weapon skill twice every battle, you are getting 200 or more TP every battle. I don't care whether you use them... Coming into a battle with 90%TP and ending with 200% is not gaining enough TP to use your weapon skill 2ce every single battle, no matter how you look at it. All melees, even PLD, can gain enough TP to skillchain 2ce in a battle, assuming they came into the battle with some. The problem is that once you do the first skillchain, the mob is dead, so you don't have time to build TP again. In any case, the statement as it was worded, was an exaggeration. There isn't time to gain 200%tp every battle, even with haste and job abilities, if you're getting to chain #5 regularly.

You are correct that I don't know you, nor have I partied with you (so far as I can remember...), but I can make a few fair assumptions. You don't have 100% accuracy, for one. Another fair assumption is that if you used Jump at the end of the previous battle, it probably won't be ready to start the current. If you use it at the end of #3, it won't be ready to start #4, which means you can't use it twice in #4. Can't use it twice in #5 regardless of what you did in #4 because you have 70 seconds from the death of #4 to the death of #5. Now, the only point I was making is that is not possible if your party achieves chain#5 to use it twice, and unlikely if your party achieves chain#4.

[Kibagami]

About the MNK vs DRG comparison don't forget that the mnk punches 2 times not one... so if he punches for 80 its 160 at that moment....not counting in double attack or kick.

If the MNk had subed THF and closed the SC i'm pretty sure the benefit would have been larger than if the DRG closed the SC with WAR or THF sub.

For Wyvern MB. DRG has to close it for it to work. I'm not sure but what teh MB does is not make the breath do more damage just not get resisted.

I dunno man...i think Ayako quit DRG and if he/she did it was not without a reason.

[Balodoth]

Hello

Mithrael!

I haven't seen you around the boards. I missed our discussion on the damage formula thread. On a sidenote, have you seen. . . what was his name?. . . Bugpop's research on the subject? I got into an interesting discussion on the validity of that study with him and a supporter. If you check Spyle's log parser forum, I'd love to hear what you have to say there. If you want links, just ask!

Khaeos. . .

While I laud your effort to urge people to more closely examine the usefulness of jobs, please quit making me look bad. I love DRG. My friends said, "Hey, come play EQ2 with us when it starts." You see, they had tried out FFXI and didn't like it (probably because it wasn't nerfed like EQ was at that point). I asked them, "Will I be able to be a DRG?" They said, "No." I said, "Well, there you have your answer."

What I like about FFXI is that it is nearly as engrossing as a single-player game while still providing the multi-player atmosphere and giving me challenges that I can work by myself or with my team to overcome. As Mithrael has shown, the majority of it is mathematical.

I have not made it to the level of you, but I can add, subtract, multiply, and divide. DRG doesn't outdamage other jobs at higher levels. This is due, in large part, to the wyvern. It has a predisposition to dieing. S-E has provided two updates to improve our damage. One was Spirit Link, to keep the wyvern alive longer. The second was the recent MB update, allowing our wyvern to do more damage while alive. I hope to see more updates in the future because it is still insufficient. Like you, I leave out much of my "proof." Of course, it's late, I'm going to bed soon, and can repost later if someone desires to question my assertions.

Before I go, let me say a couple last things. I'm not saying you can't jump twice each fight, or always at the beginning of the fight. I'm not saying you don't earn enough TP to be able to SC twice per fight. What I am saying is that you shouldn't be able to do that. If you can jump 5 times over 3 fights, and gain 200+% TP per fight, there's a reason you outdamage any other job in your party. They aren't doing their share. You say early on not to say the DRK must have crap equipment, they're decked out equally as well as you, then follow up in another post saying your parties are less than ideal. Obviously from your description the DRK is in average gear, as is every other DD you play with. Another foregone conclusion is that your mages are either not up to date with spells to hasten the enemy's demise, or they continue to play at the level they played at in Qufim. As I said, FFXI provides a challenge that can be met intelligently by just you, or the party. I don't feel your party is putting as much effort into being cohesive and contributing to the common goal as you are. I laud your underlying message--give a DRG a break, they aren't really bad--but I rue the method you used to convey it.

One more thing: After considering DRG's problem, I figured out the problem. It isn't damage, although it is important. DRG is seen as a DD. Nothing else, just a DD. Being subpar, DRG is quickly looked over in favor of other DD's. Why? Because other jobs are either better DD's, or they have a role in the party. THF is a hate manager. SAM is a DD, but are known for their WS focus. DRK is a DD out and out, a better one than DRG, and can even handle hate if /THF. The list goes on. So, I asked myself, "What could be done to DRG to give it a role?" I woke up out of a sound sleep with the answer (for some reason I occasionally think instead of dream). Arguably being the most versatile for subjobs of any other job, DRG could be like inviting two people to your party. A DD and a half-level helper. Why not expand on DRG's versatility? For instance, BRD is a dual function subjob, allowing breath attacks for WS's & cure/heal breath on songs. To make BRD a viable sub, S-E only has to make one harp and one flute equippable by DRG--naturally at much higher levels. Another example is DRK. A bit closer to the WAR de facto, DRK could be made viable with a simple pet command (which would be the easy way to exploit subjob versatility) i.e. some sort of vampire bite would fit the subjob well. S-E has the answer, they only need to strengthen it. I'm sure the majority of DRG's out there, and many other besides, would agree that S-E is on the right track strengthening DRG but still have more to do.

Make your voice heard! Sure people come up with all sorts of ideas that never come true. But somebody came up with MB breath. Somebody came up with Spirit Link, and that it should cure status ailments. How will S-E ever know what direction to take if we don't tell them? Get out there and post an idea. Even if it is completely hypothetical, a simple "wouldn't it be cool if. . ." will fan the flames. We're making progress! Keep going!

[Mithrael]

Honestly, I tend to agree. DRGs of the world would probably be better off and offer more to the party if they were allowed (by the generally short-sighted party formers) to sub the multi-purpose subs. Those subs (as far as i know) are DRK, PLD, and NIN (you mention BRD, though i hadn't heard that). DRK has it's usefulness in Attack Bonus, Souleater, and Last Resort. NIN has it's usefulness in Utsu (it's a shame that drg doesn't have a higher skill in 1-hd sword or you may be able to get somewhere with duel wield). PLD it a bit tougher :/ I can't justify the usefulness of Cure III without the status heals of /WHM, so it kinda puts it out of the picture.

The only real trick of it is that you can't control which status effect on which person the wyven will heal. If you consider fighting toramas in Onzozo though, a DRG who could heal all of your NIN or PLD's statuses would be a real boon. I suppose subbing /WHM and using baraerora (to help resist of silence) or barblizzara (to help resists of paralyze) would be a real welcome addition. I mention the bar-spells because they have nearly 0 cast time, cost very little MP (even for a melee/mage who has almost no mp pool, and put your wyvern in status heal breath mode.

I think in general, the DRG job itself isn't terribly ill-conceived. I think the weaknesses of it's subjob choices are more of an issue. /NIN isn't effective if you have to use a 2-hd weapon, for example. Poor MP pools, gimped abilities as subjobs, and lack of the real meaty equipment seem to be the biggest obstacles to DRG atm.

Just my 2c.

[Kailea]

Khaeos, thank you for posting this :p
people do need to take another look at Dragoon, and now that they can MB....its a whole new game now, so to speak ^.^

I to am getting tired of this "DRG is crap go level something usefull" BS that I hear on the boards. I can tell you this though, every PT I have been in, I have surprized them with my DRG's ability to kick wang (sorry for the sad slang but I like to throw in stuff like that sometimes) and I really dont think I should "prove" anything..........

I thank all who have post with nice info on why something are not as strong as they should be for DRG, this is what this thread was for in the first place.

the truth is out there...you just have to find it ^.^

[Bluejoker1118]

the reason people dont let DRGs sub mage or BRD or the such....because people have very narrow ignorant minds. In their minds DRG is only supposed to be Damage Dealer which means WAR or THF sub only....if people learned that DRG were meant (or at least imo) to be support healer/support nuker/hate controllers then DRG wouldnt be looked down on...

just my 2 gil

[Kibagami]

the thing is that drg/sam back in the days was such an abusive thing that ppl cant see past the "glory" days that drg had when it was considered that a drg wit ha wyvern would outdamaged a drk (of course when the cap was sixty or sixty five ther where no light or dark renkies so that did not count)

[Balodoth]

Glory Days

Actually, the glory days of DRG/SAM weren't that long ago. It was just a few months ago that they changed the WS TP gain formula to Full TP +1 per extra hit.

Also, could someone verify this 60 & 65 level cap? I was under the impression S-E started with 70 levels and went to 75 around the time I bought the game.

The way I understand it. The problem isn't DRG, it's everyone else. DRG is a powerful job, but that's not the general perception.
--The perception is fed by our damage being split up between us and our wyvern.
--Damage is spread out compared to the large single-hit damage jobs i.e. DRK.
--DRG suffers from the short lifespan of our wyvern, hurting our damage output.
--DRG has a level of subjob versatility that, instead of making them more effective, is counterproductive. Accepted subjobs have no different effect than for any other job, and abnormal subjobs do not have enough effect to justify their use in an EXP situation.
The final verdict is that DRG is not as effective as other jobs in some situations, but that the performance delta is smaller than most people believe.

S-E has been making changes to help us, but more is needed. They have addressed wyverns, and the complications they cause by helping us to keep them alive longer, do more damage, and to let party members more easily see what they do. It merits more discussion, but I feel that we're at the point where the real issue is how we function without our wyvern and how subjobs effect us and our party.

Some argue that DRG's 2-hour ability is overpowered because we can use it for 2 hours, but we know that it seldom lives very long and that it's only with our wyvern that we can compete with other jobs. This contradicts the philosophy of a 2-hour ability, which is supposed to be the exception and not the rule, designed for the rare occasion that we need it to escape defeat. What we need to resolve our performance crisis is either a permanent wyvern with a new 2-hour ability, or an ability that empowers us when the wyvern is gone but strengthens the wyvern if it is alive--in other words, the games first toggle ability.

The other issue of subjobs is also reliant on wyverns. Of all jobs, DRG are the most effective at breaking the mold. WAR and NIN seem to be the standard melee subs, while WHM & BLM seem to be the standard mage subs. The problem is that nonstandard subjobs are not effective enough to make them useful. This is, in fact, a great area for growth not just for DRG's but the game at large. The problem it presents for DRG's is that standard subjobs are just that. We are less powerful than other jobs and subsequently gain less from the normal subjobs, where our wyvern is intended to make up for the loss. Therefore, the breath attacks only serve to keep us on par with othe jobs. Nonstandard subs, on the other hand, do get a boost from the wyvern through heal/cure breaths, but do not bring those subjobs up to the level of performance of the standard. This really only serves to give DRG's a bad name. The first time someone sees Heal Breath, they think "Cool!" But after the awe leaves, it is obvious they don't do as well as if they had a WAR sub. This negative impression is then applied to the main job, not the subjob.

The dynamics of this effect is more easily illustrated with the main job BRD. (I use BRD because I mentioned it in my last post.) BRD's don't do damage like melee jobs, they don't heal like the WHM job, nor do they nuke like BLM. But when you party with one, you love it. Why? You aren't doing monumentally more damage than before. You aren't hitting tremendously more often than before. You aren't healing for twice as much HP or nuking for twice as much damage. However, it does all add up. The fight goes swifter, the time between fights is shorter; all because the BRD makes you more effective. Compare that to subbing BRD. You only use the singing skill, not wind or string. Whatever the job, you do not get much out of subbing BRD. Now imagine if, as a DRG, you could equip a harp and flute, no song bonus equipment. Don't you think BRD would be far more useful? Sure your damage wouldn't be spectacular, but the better attack/accuracy/haste bonus from adding string or wind skill would help your party make up for it. In addition you help the mages regen MP, can regen your own HP (and everyone else's) when you do Spirit Link, and any quick threnody or requiem would trigger cure/heal breath (and have a fair chance of landing due to DRG's decent CHR.

Now this wouldn't work for all subjobs, there isn't much S-E could do to make /SMN useful to DRG. But many jobs could be made valid. I mentioned BRD above and DRK in the previous post. Most subs would be better if the wyvern copied our actions (with lesser benefits naturally). Meditate giving our wyvern some TP would make /SAM more effective. Divine Seal would give Heal Breath a unique effect for /WHM. A wyvern mimicing Scavenger may not help the party as much as it helps you, but Barrage could be interesting with /RNG. Sneak Attack would be cool, although I assume it would also need to call the wyvern to your position for /THF.

The whole point is this: DRG rocks. Anyone who says differently is misinformed. However, DRG is far from perfect, but can be easily corrected. Hopefully S-E will decide to do correct it all at once instead of taking the small steps they've taken in the past.

Thoughts?

[Voila!]

When you have too many melee jobs there will always be one that's worst by comparison. Drg is in no way the worst, but because the quest is 100x harder then Drk all the idiots and sheep flock to that job.

Look at Drk and Drg AF quests, which one is harder? Drg, and for a reason, because it's better.

[Trondir]

Originally posted by Voila!
When you have too many melee jobs there will always be one that's worst by comparison. Drg is in no way the worst, but because the quest is 100x harder then Drk all the idiots and sheep flock to that job.

Look at Drk and Drg AF quests, which one is harder? Drg, and for a reason, because it's better.

Here, here!

/bow

[Kailea]

agreed ^.^

[Tokitoki]

There are 5 Genkai (limit breaks) one at 50, 55, 60, 65, and 70.