Jump as a ranged attack

[Taodyn]

Now, could someone humor me and give me some perspective on this?

Is it possible that jump attacks (Jump, High Jump, Super Jump) may be related to AGI and RNG ACC rather than DEX?

I mean this is the only way to explain the DRG inability to use a ranged weapon.

1) They work over a ranged distance.

2) As well, these attacks can be used without engaging an enemy and will not begin attack. You must engage an enemy to use any melee attack and any melee attack will result in full on battle.

3) DRG jump attacks act exactly like ranged attacks, so wouldn't it make sense if they were controlled by AGI and RNG ACC like ranged attacks?

4) And finally, why exactly would RNG Attack and RNG Accuracy boosting equipment be available to a job class that is unable to use Ranged attacks? That makes absolutely no sense, unless jump attacks actually are ranged.

[Weezingpipes]

1) The range is so small, I can't even consider it ranged. It should be called Hop, the range is that short.

2) I don't see how thats relevant. You can do a lot of things without being directly engaged in combat.

3) Again, not seeing how they really act like ranged attacks beyond not having to have auto attack on.

4) Er...I've never seen any DRG only equipment with +ranged accuracy or +ranged attack. I've seen items DRG can use with those stats tons of jobs can use, hell Horn/Scorpion/Merman etc rings are all jobs. Lots of items with +mp are all jobs, even main jobs without spells can use them. Itemization is generally by job groupings ie PLD/DRK/WAR equipment, WHM/BLM/SMN/RDM equipment etc. Its the same argument people give that because equipment they use has some random stat, it must have a purpose, when in many cases its just a random stat that might help to an incredibly small degree.

[Taodyn]

Any DRG who has ever pulled will tell you the range on a jump attack is fairly good. Not necessarily the same as a ranged weapon mind you, but fair nonetheless. It by far exceeds any melee range.

Could you by the way name these many other actions that you can do without being engaged with an enemy. I mean you obviously can't mean spells, as we already understand they are affected by MND and INT, and as jump is not a magic ability, must be affected by either DEX or AGI. Can you name one melee ability that can be used without being engaged?

On the subject of equipment, there are some pieces (Iron Msk. Gambison for starters) that include DRG in a short list of available job classes (not "All Jobs") and the only stat boost is to RNG ACC and RNG ATT. Never once did I say DRG only equip. And some DRG only does say "Enhances Jump Effect." Perhaps that translates to a boost in ranged accuracy and attack.

You really didn't offer much in the way of evidence. Rather than discuss my points, you simply say "Not seeing it." I would prefer to hear from people who have tested these stats and actually seen the outcome.

[Weezingpipes]

Any DRG who has ever pulled will tell you the range on a jump attack is fairly good

By fairly good you mean only slightly bigger than melee range. Provoke range owns jump range, it is the absolute worst "ranged" attack from a range stand point.

Can you name one melee ability that can be used without being engaged?

Steal, Barrage I think, Provoke, Charm off the top of my head.

And some DRG only does say "Enhances Jump Effect." Perhaps that translates to a boost in ranged accuracy and attack.

Yea, I have some of that equipment. Know what it does? Randomly, Jump will do significantly more damage. Thats it.

You want to know why people haven't bothered to test this? Because its a fucking waste of time kid. Even if it was proven that ranged attack and accuracy gear helped DRG Jump damage out, no one would wear a lot of it. Why? Because we're a melee job, first and foremost.

[Taodyn]

I really don't find your hostility over this issure to be deserved. I mean it was a relatively simple question that I backed up with evidence and ideas. Evidence btw that you still have yet to actually discuss rather than simply try to shuffle off.

Every ability you named does not actually deal dmg, except for Barrage. You were right that barrage does dmg except for the fact that barrage is a RANGED ATTACK. You just gave further evidence for my proposal that perhaps jump may act as a ranged attack.

Oh and your "No one will care" idea is just sad. Take, for instance, a DRG around level 40. Best armor options are Iron Msk Gambison and Iron scale mail. Neither one offers a boost to melee. Now with a one point DEF difference and the iron msk gambison offering a boost in jump acc and att, I really think this would be the armor of choice, don't you?

And btw, using the word kid to try and make yourself feel superior is especially sad considering I'm offering a detailed list of ideas and suggestions and you're stomping your feet saying NONONO. You have yet to offer a single piece of evidence or even attempt to actually refute what I'm saying. How about you back up your talk with some proof, KID?

[Mithrael]

Can you name one melee ability that can be used without being engaged?

Steal, Barrage I think, Provoke, Charm off the top of my head.

Also, Shield Bash, Weapon Bash, and Mug are all within melee range. They do not require that you are engaged.

Edit: Mug does no damage, but both Bashes do. All are still within the melee range.

MNK and WHM can also wear the Iron Muskateer's Gambison. I think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone it exists so we can throw pebbles more accurately and for more damage :spin: You can wear the I.M. Gambison because you can wear the Gambison and Wool Gambison, akaik, there is no other reason.

You can wear the minstrel's coat too! Certainly "Wind instruments skill +3" and "Stringed Instrument skill +3" must be there to help "Call Wyvern" while subbing BRD and using a string or wind instrument, right?

Would be interesting to see someone burn some gil and time to test it, but other than the I.M. Gambison, I'm not aware of any other pieces of EQ that DRG can equip that would give Ranged Attack +, plenty for accuracy.

[Lone Dragon]

I gotta agree with pipes, this is somewhat asinine.

It's the same fallout I used to see on the monk board (and still do sometimes).
People scrambling for ideas to make monk more powerful, give it another role,
but in the end we are what we are until SE makes a change.
The same holds true with Drg.

I like the idea of Drg, I hope you get a boost,
but don't embarrass yourselves.

[Taodyn]

Thank you, Mithrael.

You offer a good counter point and I must say that your ideas do make sense. Next time I'm farming I may buy a I M Gambison to test it as you suggested.

It just seems odd to me that SE would design a melee job with no ranged attack or ability to use ranged weapons at all. Subbing BRD could make the Instrument skill boost gear helpful (though this would make a bad combo IMHO), but there is no sub that would allow DRG to use ranged weapons. Therefore, the idea of RNG ACC boost gear (of which you said there is plenty) on a DRG makes no sense. Why would SE make such equipment available if they had to program each piece of gear when DRG was introduced?

Maybe it's a huge oversight. But maybe there is some value here. May take testing, but I thought I'd try to save time and gil by asking here.

[Rainsford]

I'm pretty sure you can't equip instruments if your sub is brd, so basically wind and string+ is useless on a sub...

And I have see drgs try to wear agi stuff claiming its to help jump out, but they ALWAYS come back to acc and dex. So even if it does matter, hurting yourself to wait for 1:30 to come up and end up missing is kinda silly.

[Taodyn]

I don't mean I'm going to sacrifice DEX or ACC for Ranged ACC or AGI, but if I have a choice of Boosting RNG stats without hurting DEX and ACC, it would make sense now wouldn't it?

[JayblahX]

Originally posted by Taodyn
I really don't find your hostility over this issure to be deserved. I mean it was a relatively simple question that I backed up with evidence and ideas. Evidence btw that you still have yet to actually discuss rather than simply try to shuffle off.

Every ability you named does not actually deal dmg, except for Barrage. You were right that barrage does dmg except for the fact that barrage is a RANGED ATTACK. You just gave further evidence for my proposal that perhaps jump may act as a ranged attack.

Oh and your "No one will care" idea is just sad. Take, for instance, a DRG around level 40. Best armor options are Iron Msk Gambison and Iron scale mail. Neither one offers a boost to melee. Now with a one point DEF difference and the iron msk gambison offering a boost in jump acc and att, I really think this would be the armor of choice, don't you?

And btw, using the word kid to try and make yourself feel superior is especially sad considering I'm offering a detailed list of ideas and suggestions and you're stomping your feet saying NONONO. You have yet to offer a single piece of evidence or even attempt to actually refute what I'm saying. How about you back up your talk with some proof, KID?

Personally, the only ass I'm seeing in this thread is you.

You want to know why he's "hostile" :spin: towards this idea? Almost every time some person posts on this forum with some "new" theory on how to make a mundane skill become superleet, or a new Job combination that is oh-so-badass, it gets dismissed because people like Weezingpipes know what they are talking about.

Everytime these ideas get called "stupid", the person who initially brought it up always gets upset (kind of like you) and insists his idea is awesome and that we "just don't get it."

Wrong.

[Taodyn]

Really? I did that? That's funny because I seem to recall thanking someone who offered sound advice and information. Gee, that really makes me an ass doesn't it? You say I got angry. Show me one thing I said that showed anger over disagreement. You say I said "You're wrong, my idea is awesome." Show me one thing I said to reflect that.

I'm not trying to make my job "Superleet." Damn, we're only talking about a few bonus RNG ACC or RNG ATT. If I didn't boost these stats I could just boost others. I mean really. Does boosting DEX count as trying to make us "Superleet"? Actually, since you brought it up, how exactly would boosting ranged stats make us uber? How exactly would marginally raising the accuracy and dmg of a time delay attack, make us "superleet"? You completely misunderstand my intention (though you do I assume grasp the general concept of DEX vs AGI). I don't want to make DRG uber. I'm just wondering if -1 DEF is worth +3 RNG ATT and +3 RNG ACC for a level 40 DRG. That's it. No uber, no superleet.

This was a simple question of whether or not Jump attacks are affected by DEX or AGI, whether they are considered melee or ranged. I never once said I wanted to make DRG uber. You said that.

The problem with these boards is not people who ask questions, it's the arrogant jerks (ie. you) who feel they have some right to call down others. I don't care if people disagree with me. But rather than offering advice in a polite, casual manner, you people come in here thinking you are above everyone else and offer nothing but flames.

Am I upset? Not really. It was an idea. They come and go. But you read these posts and you'll notice, not once did I start any hostility. If you can't offer anything to the discussion, why are you even here?

[JayblahX]

Right, you aren't upset. Nah, there must be some other reason you lengthily reply as if your panties have just been ruffled, am I right? Nah, there must be some other reason the first one to speak in a condescending, arrogant tone (your 2nd reply) was you? Maybe its because your ego got bruised? After all, your idea turned out to be rather flaccid.

How many people is it going to take for you to get the idea that no one really thinks your idea is worthwhile. You're idea is stupid. So far, five individuals have said as much, some more politely than others.

By the way, your equally stupid comparison of crap Dragoon Armor A vs. crap Dragoon Armor B (the level 40 comparison), also falls flat. You see, you don't need to have top of the line armor per level if it offers nothing useful (hint: The Gambison's R.ACC is useless for you). After all, there is the level 34 Windurstian Doublet (and the HQ version which adds +1 DEF) series thats offers +1 DEX (and +1 AGI) for 5 less DEF (which goes to waste 90% on a Dragoon since you aren't tanking for long periods).

But please, don't let us meanies stop you from dabbling in the retarded.

/wave

[Taodyn]

Have you even read anything Jayblah? In my 2nd reply which you point out, I mention the fact THAT WEEZING WAS BEING ARROGANT.

It's cool though. I only offered an idea, for better or worse. No big deal really. You, however, managed to illustrate your own lack of observation and manners.

Who really cares if the idea was stupid? You seem to think I've pinned all my hopes and aspirations on this one concept. I was bored and the thought came to mind. You guys really need to calm down.

Not once did I say this was the greatest idea ever. Not once did I get upset at the idea I might be wrong. I mean who really cares? It was a simple question that you blew out of proportion.

I will, however, say to weezingpipes that if my FIRST reply to you seemed at all hostile, then I apologize. It was not intended as such. Your initial reply to my beginning post was not hostile by any means. I was simply asking that you offer proof or explaination.

And Jayblah, could you come up with SOMETHING that could offer to this discussion. At least when Weezing was being arrogant he was offering counterpoints. You're posting like his sidekick or something. I mean you don't even go so far as to say you know better. You say HE knows better. I'm sure he does. That would rather be the reason I asked for perspective here. But let's hear your insight on this one, Robin.

[Macht]

Taodyn,

Don't bother to much with JayblahX and Weezingpipes, to date I've hardly seen them effectively backup their opinions in a debate. As a fact JayblahX after the update with the TP change posted on almost every job specific forum, weather it be to get other opinions or not, with messages that were almost taunting or insulting. That is at least how I interpreted his posts (No reason to be posting on DRGs forum saying "Geez you guys gimped BADLY, I'd hate to be in your shoes right now" not exactly how he said it but it's one of the ways I interpreted his message).

The idea is intresting and I don't see a reason it would be invalid. I'm not certain about the stats of the equipment being mentioned that gives + to instrument skills (If I did have that info it could help in this debate). Though I don't see the point of non-engaged abilities being a factor that proves something being dependant on ranged acc/att and not being dependant on it. At a programs view any ability can be executed outside of a combat, just the target it effects is different.

For example Barrage the target it effects is the Ranger, Eagle Eye Shot it's target is the NPC (Clear differences on two Ranger abilities). So the point about the abilities I don't see being valid enough. However the logic of the attack does seem to classify it as being a limited ranged, after all it has distance beyond normal close combat even if it is a little or a lot.

The big part I understand it as though the Jump abilities are to help shed hate not increase it. So missing in this case can actually be advantageous, as I understand it hate is shed weather you hit or not (making an actual hit means you started to gain more hate after loosing the previous right away).

So even if it's proved that the Jump abilities do get some improvement by RNG Acc/Att the situation will still determine if it's needed or helpful.