Drg/drk *at Level 60+*

[Crisis]

Weezingpipes

I really don't much like DRK sub to a DRG over 60. Other subs are simply more useful for a myriad of reasons, subbing a job literally for 1 innate ATK boost and 1 good 5 min reuse ability doesn't really appeal to me compared to WAR with sooooo many more useful abilities. Even THF and Samurai are comparatively more useful subs than DRK. Warrior alone probably does more damage due to double attack frequency which is fairly high than the ATK difference makes, and Berserks better duration than Last Resort makes it overall more valuable.

I never said it was better then War sub or the other subs. I'm just giving info on a combo nobody seems to post any real tested facts on but always comments on. So far, I do more damage then a War sub. This was tested on another elvaan dragoon and we got the same equipment on. Even taking into account the double attack which was noted when we compared the damage when we were finished. Although it was close the Drk sub still did more damage then the war sub, that was with berserk.

I have no clue how it works at 60 cause i'm 5 levels away from that, once I get there i'll post what I find.

[l)@RK-l)EVIL]

Originally posted by Zihn
DRG gets
Attack Bonus1 Lv.10
Accuracy Bonus1 Lv.30

DRK gets
Attack Bonus1 Lv.10
Attack Bonus2 Lv.30
Attack Bonus3 Lv.50

and thats it... dont have DRK 70+ myself but all the sites say they only get 3 attack bonuses

english sites most of them only know about lv50~

too many jp sites say drk get Attack Bonus lv 70 also

[imac2much]

Well, according to a few Japanese websites I've browsed, PLD and DRK share the same stat bonuses at the same levels; the only difference is that the former raises DEF and the latter raises ATK.

lv 10 Bonus I : +10
lv 30 Bonus II : +22
lv 50 Bonus III : +35
lv 70 Bonus IV : +47

That might be wrong by a few points, but you get the point. I'm not 70, and honestly at 70 you won't even notice an additional 12/13 DEF as PLD or ATK as DRK, but apparently there is a fourth bonus.

[fuz]

I've actually stripped my equips and played with my subs just a few day ago to see if that interview with the deveopler really shed correct info on the stat mechanics. http://ffxi.crgaming.com/interviews/...iew.asp?Id=209

I see no reason why it is incorrect after fidling with the figures. To figure out the attack bonus, take off all equips:

str x 2 = base attack

current attack - base attack = bonus attack

bonus attack / # of bonuses = amount of attack per bonus.

What I got in the end, is 6 per bonus. And if you do the same for vit, you get 6 per bonus. With war sub, my drk has a bonus of 24 attack, which makes sense at lvl 60 with 4 attack bonuses. When I switched to thief sub, I got an exact 18 bonus, and my def was down by 6 after recalculation of vit.

So really, I always wondered why my 3 attack bonuses didn't just destroy a dragoon's measly single attack bonus pre lvl 60, and this seems to be why--the bonuses aren't much. Also your attack is a damage range that is added after your damage from str is calculated.

Str always increases damage by 1, and also adds ~2 attack per. Attack on the other hand is a random number added later which can be between 0 and your max attack. So if you have an attack of 300, a random number between 0 to 300 would be added to your damage after str damage is calculated. So the average damage added in this case would be 150 after str dmg.

So it's better to add str rather than attack unless you can get a lot of it, because it takes 2 attack to get a single damage increase after being averaged. So at level 60, my 24 attack bonus only adds an average of 12 extra damage per hit.

I imagine it is the same for vit, so I would say it is better to raise vit to reduce damage rather than def, unless you can get a lot of it.

I can't see the accuracy bonus on dragoon, but if the programmers are consistent, I guess it would be 6 acc per bonus as well. If it was 10, ranger would have godly accuracy, which they dont.

[Crisis]

Interesting...

[GSDragoon]

yes, very interesting. Going to need to do some testing.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by fuz
I've actually stripped my equips and played with my subs just a few day ago to see if that interview with the deveopler really shed correct info on the stat mechanics. http://ffxi.crgaming.com/interviews/...iew.asp?Id=209

I see no reason why it is incorrect after fidling with the figures. To figure out the attack bonus, take off all equips:

str x 2 = base attack

current attack - base attack = bonus attack

bonus attack / # of bonuses = amount of attack per bonus.

What I got in the end, is 6 per bonus. And if you do the same for vit, you get 6 per bonus. With war sub, my drk has a bonus of 24 attack, which makes sense at lvl 60 with 4 attack bonuses. When I switched to thief sub, I got an exact 18 bonus, and my def was down by 6 after recalculation of vit.

So really, I always wondered why my 3 attack bonuses didn't just destroy a dragoon's measly single attack bonus pre lvl 60, and this seems to be why--the bonuses aren't much. Also your attack is a damage range that is added after your damage from str is calculated.

Str always increases damage by 1, and also adds ~2 attack per. Attack on the other hand is a random number added later which can be between 0 and your max attack. So if you have an attack of 300, a random number between 0 to 300 would be added to your damage after str damage is calculated. So the average damage added in this case would be 150 after str dmg.

So it's better to add str rather than attack unless you can get a lot of it, because it takes 2 attack to get a single damage increase after being averaged. So at level 60, my 24 attack bonus only adds an average of 12 extra damage per hit.

I imagine it is the same for vit, so I would say it is better to raise vit to reduce damage rather than def, unless you can get a lot of it.

I can't see the accuracy bonus on dragoon, but if the programmers are consistent, I guess it would be 6 acc per bonus as well. If it was 10, ranger would have godly accuracy, which they dont.

I've already discussed the damage mitigation formula in my Paladin FAQ... this is rather old news. It's also been proven that WAR's ATK bonus and DRK's ATK bonus do NOT stack, just like PLD's DEF bonus and WAR's DEF bonus don't stack (and RDM MagATK bonus and BLM's MagATK bonus), so I'm not entirely sure why your war sub has more ATK than your THF sub... you're going to have only 3 bonuses either way.

ATK isn't just a random number tacked on to your final damage. It's based on an exponential damage check with the target's defense, meaning that it's a curve, not linear. When ATK is much higher than the target's DEF, each point is going to make your damage go up all the more... but if it's rather close to the target's DEF, the same increase won't make as much of a difference. Also, the way the monster CHECKS to your /check command changes the base damage (high def, low def, or normal), which is another reason why you want more ATK.

STR does another check, but this time with the target's VIT. This is a purely linear check (STR-VIT, basically, although it may have some other coefficients), so the same increase will affect end damage the same regardless of how high your STR is. This is why PLD's with extremely high DEF want VIT instead, and why damage dealers usually just go for ATK even at high levels. (although ACC is arguably more important...)

So actually damage is calculated differently than you imagine, and ATK is generally more important than STR for xp PT damage dealers. To put it simply, in XP PT you will want more and more ATK since your abilities (such as berserk, LR, and I believe Warcry) increase ATK by a percentage... the increases in ATK will make a much larger difference in end damage than any minute increase in STR.... and another reason, STR ultimately raises your max damage. You won't be hitting max damage against XP PT mobs.

And the bonuses with equipment have to be more than 6. I know for a FACT that my Defense rose exactly 10 points at level 10, and between 10 and 15 at level 30 (didn't really pay attention at 50). My DRK friend noticed the 10 point increase as well at lvl 10. Maybe the bonuses are affected by a percentage as well? A simpler way to test would be: use a lvl 20-39 job as main... check the ATK (and the STR). Now sub DRK... you should now have PHY ATK UP I passive trait. Check the STR, and add/subtract from your ATK if it changed, then compare your ATK to the previous ATK. It *should* be about a 10 point difference.

Sorry if I sounded harsh, because I didn't mean to... but your damage calculation formula is rather silly. DRK's my level usually have 400+ ATK, probably with at least 70 STR. Don't tell me they're going to hit for (weapon damage) + (70) + (200) on average... No. Everything is checked against one of the target's defensive stats/substats and scaled either linearly or exponentially depending on the check...

[fuz]

For one thing, I left out the whole attack on defense check to keep this simple in perspective. There really is no need to discuss def because we're comparing the attack of 2 classes (drk vs. drg) againt a singe static defense, which I am using zero for to keep it simple. You only want to measure 1 variable at a time in tests, not complicate things.

Str and attack might be different, but according to the formula given by the developer, str ALSO adds 2 attack per each unit of str which seems to be correct from my testing. Thus if you have to choose between two rings, one with str+3 or one with attack+6, you would choose the str ring because not only does it increase str, it also gives 6 extra attack. This is what I mean when str is better unless you can get a lot of attack (basically more than 2x the str).

I do know that many attack bonuses like last resort and berserk are calculated on attack alone, and for that, attack is important to have in large amounts.

As for gaining exactly 10 def when you hit level 10, did you account for the vit boost you got when you leveled from 9 to 10? I am going with the notion that vitx2 = (base def) which you have to subtract before you can see your def bonus. After all, if def and attack only exist because of equips and bonuses, why do we have it when we de-equip everything?

ATTACK ------------------------------

"Attack raises your standard damage variance and increases the average damage given."

I already stated that attack is based on a curve. A random number within a min to max range IS a standard deviation bell curve. So no, my attack formula is not on a linear scale. It is explained the link I posted as well. When your attack is checked against an enemy's def, it subtracts your maximum value. Say, you have 300 attack and the enemy has 100 defense. Hitting that enemy, your attack damage is now a random number between 0 and 200.

As for the exponential curve, it is already an innate part of using that random average. Think like this:

Attack vs. Defense
100 vs. 100 = -100%
200 vs. 100 = -50%
300 vs. 100 = -33%
400 vs. 100 = -25%
500 vs. 100 = -20%
600 vs. 100 = -17%
700 vs. 100 = -14%

As you can see from the percentages, it is an exponential curve. I might not have said curve anywhere in my other post, but it is the same thing as an average--a very basic statistics fundamental. Just plot the percentages on a chart and you can see the curve yourself. With low attack, you take a very large hit in power, and with high attack it makes less and less difference. However, because it is on an exponential scale, there is a diminishing return on gaining higher and higher attack. The difference between 100-200 attack is a 50% gain in power, yet at 600-700, the gain is only 3%. So yes, attack DOES have a sort of cap to it where it takes a tremendous amount of attack to do more damage when you have high attack already. On this, I have to disagree that with you that there is no cap on attack.

STRENGTH ------------------------------

In this link there is no clear answer as to how str increases damage.

"STR raises your damage curve itself and increases the maximum amount of damage given."

I am guessing that it shifts your whole attack curve. In the basic graph of y=(mx)+b, b would equal str, and mx would be the equation for the curve. This would give str a linear function unlike attack. Thus 1 str equals 1 more damage unless the enemy's vit is greater than your str, as (your str) - (enemy vit) = (damage added).

str vs. vit
10 vs. 20 = 0 extra dmg
20 vs. 20 = 0 extra dmg
30 vs. 20 = 10 extra dmg
40 vs. 20 = 20 extra dmg

I am pretty sure from what is said that str ignores def, yet sometimes we hit for 0 dmg. I'm not sure how this happens. It could be that the enemy's vit is so high that we are only relying only attack power.

As for the part about increasing your maximum damage, I'm not sure what he means. It could be that he is just re-affirming the first part of his sentence, or there actually is another equation for str.

BONUSES ------------------------------

I gave the way I have calculated my bonuses, and I hope that someone else can reproduce the same results.

I have not checked to see if they are percentage based, but that is the data I have gotten with nothing on me. I will check later to see if the bonus increases when equips are added--which would indicate a percentage change.

CONCLUSION ------------------------------

Neither of us have entered something important in damage calculations. Weapon level proficiency. No one knows how these work, but is easily proven that a higher proficiency adds accuracy and damage. So damage is not based on str and attack alone.

About my way of calculating attack damage, it might seem moronically simple, but it is very complicated in the details that I didn't mention because I don't like typing stuff like of this length out. Instead I just hinted at the types of ways it is calculated. If I look like an idiot, oh well... :p

[Malefas]

Are we to assume that weapon reduction in terms of damage, is added after all of the previous equations are worked out?

Or does the strength of your weapon (As in piercing against bones for example) applied to your overall max daamge, which in this case would be related closely to STR?

Ack, too much complications.

[imac2much]

First of all, if you noticed I referenced my Paladin FAQ, I have a link the most generally accepted damage formula by the JP community.

http://www.moonlight.gr.jp/~el/ffxi/ab_calc.html.en

Originally posted by fuz
For one thing, I left out the whole attack on defense check to keep this simple in perspective. There really is no need to discuss def because we're comparing the attack of 2 classes (drk vs. drg) againt a singe static defense, which I am using zero for to keep it simple. You only want to measure 1 variable at a time in tests, not complicate things.

Actually, you should consider DEF and VIT. Since these variables affect the damage calculation in different ways and by different magnitudes, some consideration must be made. Yes, they may complicate the calculations, but no one said answers are always simple.

Str and attack might be different, but according to the formula given by the developer, str ALSO adds 2 attack per each unit of str which seems to be correct from my testing. Thus if you have to choose between two rings, one with str+3 or one with attack+6, you would choose the str ring because not only does it increase str, it also gives 6 extra attack. This is what I mean when str is better unless you can get a lot of attack (basically more than 2x the str).

I have absolutely no idea where you got this misinformation. STR is involved in the STR-VIT check, but also 2 points of STR add 1 point of ATK... not the other way around. This is not breaking news, anyone can notice this when equipping some +STR gear. Likewise, 2 vit = 1 def, 2 dex = 1 acc, 2 agi = 1 eva, etc. Once again, 1 STR does NOT equal 2 ATK. Plus, you will never find equipment to match hauberk's and other such equipment's ATK bonus in the form of STR. ATK is sometimes raised by a double digit number by a piece of equipment, whereas STR is generally only raised by 2-4 points.

As for gaining exactly 10 def when you hit level 10, did you account for the vit boost you got when you leveled from 9 to 10? I am going with the notion that vitx2 = (base def) which you have to subtract before you can see your def bonus. After all, if def and attack only exist because of equips and bonuses, why do we have it when we de-equip everything?

My VIT did not change at all. Even if it did, it probably would not have raised my DEF even 1 point, let alone 4 points.

ATTACK ------------------------------

No, I don't believe ATK is based on a bell curve. It only enters the equation in the ATK/DEF check. There *IS* a cap for damage based on ATK, but you will not reach it on XP PT mobs. Ever.

I was incorrect in thinking ATK is based on a curve. As a PLD, I am generally interested only in my DEF vs target's ATK, and with constant variable ATK, DEF *is* based on a curve (for example, y=1/x).

However, even though the equation is the same (ATK/DEF), if DEF remains constant, then ATK will rise linearly. (y=x/1) So why is ATK more useful than STR, which also affects damage linearly? Because the ATK/DEF check is multiplied by your weapon's damage rating. Also remember what I said about how you /check the monster's defense... it affects what your [center] is in the damage rate calculation. And the /check is ONLY affected by your ATK and their DEF, not your STR.


STRENGTH ------------------------------

Your conception of STR is correct. It is very linear like you say, and has nothing to do with the mob's defense. It is a different check than ATK. The "max" means the damage cap... it is generally known that STR affects your damage cap, but once again you will NOT reach the damage cap on XP PT mobs! This is why 10-20 ATK is more useful than 2-4 STR by FAR.

Neither of us have entered something important in damage calculations. Weapon level proficiency. No one knows how these work, but is easily proven that a higher proficiency adds accuracy and damage. So damage is not based on str and attack alone.

Actually weapon proficiency is rather simple. 1 weapon level = +1 ATK and 0.9 ACC. (it used to be different, but was fixed this way in recent patch. I can't remember the link where I got the ACC information, but it is supposed to be just slightly less than 1 ACC per level. The +1 ATK per level is easily proven.) Therefore weapon proficiency really has nothing to do with the damage calculation, except that it indirectly affects some essential parameters.

As you can see, for damage dealers, ATK is still more important. The debate would be a little closer if there were actually pieces of equipment that added double digits of STR... but there aren't.

If you are *only* trying to compare DRG and DRK's ATK... Like you said, there won't be an incredible amount of difference at low levels. As you get higher, a lot of the best equipment that increases ATK and ACC are not equippable by DRG. This alone will raise the DRK in terms of ATK, not to mention stronger higher level WS's and LR/SE. DRK's lv 225 WS's Spinning Slash and Cross Reaper totally overshadow the DRG's corresponding WS Wheeling Thrust... by far.

Hm I had a chart showing what weapon types were good against which... although most of this is general knowledge now (piercing good against flying, bad against bones... blunt good against bones...). I believe these strengths and weaknesses are included in the calculation as a percentage at the very end.

[Zafron]

I just want to say kudos to Crisis.

Instead of basing his sub-job selection off theory he went and applied it. Just about everything i have read about why not to sub DRK on DRG has been conjecture. No one who says that it is a bad sub-job choice has actually subbed it themselves from what i gather. So bravo Crisis, I as well am leveling DRK to sub on DRG. There is no substitute for first hand experience.

[Crisis]

Yeah, give it a try. It's not as bad as people make it seem. I've had a lot of people come up and be like "You owned other Drg i've partied with", so I guess it's just not my point of view that it's not so bad. This was like 53 or 54 so it wasn't some noob party, nor was it the first comment i've gotten.

[FrozenChrono]

Crisis I think all the work you're doing is great. When I get FFXI (soon I hope) I'm planning on going Drg/Drk too. Although it'll be a long time in the making I think it'll be worth it to have a unique but still useful character build.

I haven't been to this forum for a bit, but I want to thank you for giving me the benifit of the doubt back there. I know Rangers out damage drk's drg's and pretty much everything else. I am however unaware of any hate control abilitys rangers posses, and since it is possible for classes other then rangers to do enough damage to take hate away from the main tank, it seems to me that your max damage is capped by how much hate your tank can control. Because Drg's have 3 abilitys which control hate (High Jump, Super Jump, and there wyvern) this would indicate to me that they if they are capable of outputing the most damage on a consistant basis without attracting hate. That's what I was trying to say earlier, I wouldn't even think to say that Drg's can outdamage Rangers if both were going all out on a mob Rng win in that area hands down.

A better hate attracting tank will allow a higher amount of damage before the mob changes targets. So if you have a tank that can generate enough hate to keep a mob off of a Ranger going all out the Rng would obviously do the most damage. But as far as I know most tanks can keep that much hate no matter what they do, so Drg is allowed to do more damage.

( I know that the post I just responded to was from about 3 pages back but I haven't been to the forum since it was posted)

As far as the War vs Drk debate goes all the stat calculatiors I can find give them about a 1-2 difference in any stat at level 60. As far as the skills go

War: Passive
double attack- very nice, slight damage and tp gain on average.
defensive bonus- handy at times but considering what a Drg is for and there hate shedding abilitys it isn't really nessisary and shouldn't be much of a factor unless things go horribly wrong.
Resist virus- handy but not much of a factor
Attack up- would be nice if it stacked, but according to all sources I've come in contact with it doesn't.
Active
Provoke- same goes for this as went for defensive bonus
Defender- same again
Berserk- very nice especially with the 3 minutes active 5 min cooldown.
Warcry- Very nice again, don't get it til 70 though. (it also seems as if it would be nerfed a bit since war is subed, but I haven't heard anything about this one way or the other)

Drk: Passive
2 Attack ups- First one cancels, but the second one would be handy.
Resist Paralysis- Same as virus pretty much.
Arcana killer- Not great but it sounds like it's more frequently useful then dragon killer.
Active
Arane circle- handy against casters
Last Resort- a shorter lasting berserk.
Bash- nice against casters (I think it would be an extra tp gain skill like jump otherwise but I haven't seen anything on it)
Soul Eater- nerfed due to sub but still nice and you get it earlier then warcry.

Drk also has a small amount of magic while subed, this would at the least take some burdon off of your white mage and allow you to function more independently (spells and wyvren cures)

All in all I'd say much of it would depend on the party you're in, what you're hunting, and partly on your level. A drk sub would make you better against casters, add more un buffed attack damage. War would help as a back up tank, although with the hate you may have already lost from jumps, and since that's mostly an emergency situation I wouldn't factor that in much. War after 70 gets a good boost, and may be better in many situations at that point, but 60-69 Drk seems to have the advantage, before that berserk would seem to outshine the Drk, but according to Crisis he can do 20 more damage without buffs then a war can with berserk, same equipment+level.

Most of the time someone else in your party will have War subbed (since tanks need provoke) although having warcry on 100% of the time couldn't hurt, many other classes sub the war too, and you only need two to keep it up 100%. (according to the sight I'm looking at it's 3 min with a 5 min cooldown, plz correct me if this is wrong) The other war abilitys that would be useful are double attack (extra TP and damage) and Berserk, this would be up against Soul Eater, Last Resort, and the extra attack bonus.

Obviously War is the way to go if you plan on also backup tanking, however Drk is a viable sub job seeing as Crisis can more then match berserk damage with his Drg/Drk. Also on paper the Drk looks to have a distinct damage dealing advantage 60-69. I'm not in any way claiming that Drk sub ownz, or that War is not as good subbed, I'm mearling trying to show that there is a legitimant reason for this sub and that it may even outpreform the War sub in certain groups, during certain levels, and/or against certain enemys.

I know the post was a bit long. If I made any mistakes or something I said didn't quite seem right feel free to let me know, the more I can learn about the game the better.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by FrozenChrono
All in all I'd say much of it would depend on the party you're in, what you're hunting, and partly on your level. A drk sub would make you better against casters, add more un buffed attack damage. War would help as a back up tank, although with the hate you may have already lost from jumps, and since that's mostly an emergency situation I wouldn't factor that in much. War after 70 gets a good boost, and may be better in many situations at that point, but 60-69 Drk seems to have the advantage, before that berserk would seem to outshine the Drk, but according to Crisis he can do 20 more damage without buffs then a war can with berserk, same equipment+level.

Obviously War is the way to go if you plan on also backup tanking, however Drk is a viable sub job seeing as Crisis can more then match berserk damage with his Drg/Drk. Also on paper the Drk looks to have a distinct damage dealing advantage 60-69. I'm not in any way claiming that Drk sub ownz, or that War is not as good subbed, I'm mearling trying to show that there is a legitimant reason for this sub and that it may even outpreform the War sub in certain groups, during certain levels, and/or against certain enemys.

I commend you people for trying to be original. However, unfortunate as it may sound, this doesn't work at high levels. I told someone to try this out, and he gave me some feedback after an XP PT.

Consider this. At low levels, you only have 100-300 ATK, so the passives that DRK sub gets would add a significant amount of ATK. Now remember that Berserk is based on a percentage, not a fixed increase. So at high levels when you have 400+ ATK, berserk will add nearly 100 more ATK, while your DRK sub will add like 15. You probably know how souleater works right? It takes 10% of your current HP and adds it onto your damage. It's nothing that great; DRK's usually use it to finish battles faster to get an XP chain, not in every battle. Plus, he said it seemed nerfed as a DRK sub instead of main (makes sense, THF SA and TA are nerfed as sub, SAM's meditate is nerfed as sub, etc).

Another thing. After 60-65ish, DRG will almost never get invites in random PTs. DRG are the worst melee job at high levels compared to MNK, RNG, DRK, WAR, THF due to several factors, mostly lvl 3 skillchains and DPS. I agree that /DRK may be *viable* but it won't do nearly as much DPS as /WAR, so it'll be even TOUGHER to get a PT. Of course, if you have a static PT or just play with friends, disregard this, since you can do whatever you want. I'm not telling you *NOT* to do this, but it is definitely worse (I know you never said /DRK > /WAR), and PT creators will keep this in mind.

I think /DRK is a very interesting alternative for subs at low and mid levels, so have fun with it while it's still viable. Good luck (and don't put too much weight in theory and stat calculators... experience is always better).

[FrozenChrono]

Thx for the feedback imac2much, I totally agree that experience is the end all be all (which is why I made sure to state that my calculations were based on paper) According to the sights I've looked at, Last Resort is % based as well, is that not the case? Also what is warcry based off of, % or strait stats? And is it less effective when War is subbed? Just curious as I can't seem to find this info elsewhere.

Most of the problems late game seem to stem more from the Drg not being as useful as other main jobs post 60, then from what sub job you choose.