/MNK.... Um, what?

[Zempten]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

yeah, TODs don't matter anymore considering people still bot to claim. Even then other LSs have mules all over and get TODs regardless.

Back to the topic, I personally used H2H till 25. The mercenary's knife caught my attention but since I've solo/duoed most of the way, I'd prefer having the Counter JT till 25 for those Daggers. I guess I could have /NIN when I hit 24 for Utsusemi, but I didn't feel like there was a need when I was doing fine with /MNK's Martial Arts + Counter (also didn't want to run all the way from qufim to jeuno just to change SJ while duoing). Once I hit 25 I used /NIN for the extra dagger ( +2 accuracy, +5 ATK). I gave /RNG consideration for the Accuracy Bonus, but I started to PT and in a PT setting having 6 shadows to help tank is more helpful imo. It's almost impossible not to take hate when your in a PT b/c of all your Curing potential.

As far as eye balling your accuracy, the eye is easily tricked. So finding a parse is your best bet or if you record everything by hand (which is . . .very tedious). I useDVSParse, other people use other parses. It's all up to you. A simple google search or a browsing around windower.net will find you what you need.

[Ellipses]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

Yeah, I just found the juxtaposition amusing. It's Friday, and I'm easily amused.

[Karinya]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

Did you parse this? If not, the explanation is very simple: "Wishful thinking".

Actually, there's an even simpler explanation: he counts hitting with one fist as a "hit", rather than as a hit *and* a miss. At least, that's how I interpret this:

I missed more in percentage terms with knife than H2H. It was very rare that both knuckles missed using H2H.

It would be very rare to miss twice in a row with a knife, too (especially on EM or lower mobs). But you probably won't count your knife hits that way unless you DW. (And even then you shouldn't, although I don't want to lengthen this post with a detailed explanation of why.)

If you're going to count accuracy on H2H or DW, you have to count every fist/weapon for a comparison to SW to be valid: every round you have two hits, a hit and a miss, or two misses. (More if you DA/TA or a multihit weapon procs, but that isn't a factor at this level.) And in that time a single-wield dagger (by which I mean the whole weapon category, including knives; I thought that was too obvious to need mentioning) user has somewhere between two and three swings, each of which is a hit or a miss.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

Actually, there's an even simpler explanation: he counts hitting with one fist as a "hit", rather than as a hit *and* a miss. At least, that's how I interpret this:

I missed more in percentage terms with knife than H2H. It was very rare that both knuckles missed using H2H.

Er... I did not think of reading it that way. ^_^; One hit then one miss is 50% accuracy or 50% miss rate--and "lousy" by any measure--never thought of counting two swings as "one hit".

Doesn't seem like a useful way to count things, and it's still a variation of "wishful thinking."

[Susurrus]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

OK I will start by sayiing I am not using a parser and I'm only level 8 so take this as you want.

I tried /mnk and using Cesti to level 7. Used it a little while and decided to try out /war and Blind Knife +1. While I lose combo, it seems it is much more effective. The speed of attacks compared to the slow as hell H2H is insane. I get way more attacks than H2H and miss a lot less. I also noticed my damage isn't really any lower, and Drain Samba gives me the same amount of Drain per hit, so that really adds up when you're attacking that fast.

Granted it was a level 1 NQ H2H vs a lvl 7 HQ weapon, but I can't say speed wise how H2H could be better than dagger. Just because H2H gets two hits and MAYBE hits a little harder, doesn't mean its better. Dagger seems to be much better DPS, especially when you take in the drain effect.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

Been in quite a few Valkurm Dunes parties lately, and had dancer(s) in almost every party. All I have to say about /MNK or /anything at this point is this:

If you're hitting for 0, your damage output is 0, and your TP gain is 0. At Lv.15+, that means no cures from Waltz. Hitting for 0 means you suck and fail as a Dancer!

Hand-to-Hand, Dagger, whatever--eat your attack food and like it.

[Icemage]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

Been in quite a few Valkurm Dunes parties lately, and had dancer(s) in almost every party. All I have to say about /MNK or /anything at this point is this:

If you're hitting for 0, your damage output is 0, and your TP gain is 0. At Lv.15+, that means no cures from Waltz. Hitting for 0 means you suck and fail as a Dancer!
Hand-to-Hand, Dagger, whatever--eat your attack food and like it.

One important point to note is that due to their low DMG ratings, daggers will hit for 0 far more often than H2H will unless you have terminally low STR. This can be a special problem in the mid-to-late 20s when fighting Mandragora, which like to Guard against damage, or against Crabs when they've got Scissor Guard active.


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

Believe me, I had plenty of hand-to-hand and dagger Dancers hitting for 0's in the past few days. Even before crabs throw up Cissor Guard.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

Been in quite a few Valkurm Dunes parties lately, and had dancer(s) in almost every party. All I have to say about /MNK or /anything at this point is this:

If you're hitting for 0, your damage output is 0, and your TP gain is 0. At Lv.15+, that means no cures from Waltz. Hitting for 0 means you suck and fail as a Dancer!

Hand-to-Hand, Dagger, whatever--eat your attack food and like it.

Its very easy to hit for 0 on crabs as most jobs. Don't forget that Bubble Shower also adds STR Down, which is especially painful when Defense Boost is thrown up.

Also, Attack means nothing without STR. I think it would be more prudent to gear DNC for STR and Attack, with a modest amount of VIT, MND and accuracy gear, then eat sushi. Dancers are not real damage dealers, its more important that hits land and do enough damage to gain TP, that's the only purpose your DD really serves. Wanna WS, wait til 40 and seriously consider /SAM for 60+, so far I've only seen one DNC with the forethought to sub /SAM to this end.

Of course, there is also the option of soloing past thing like the dunes and persuing alternative camps, but FFXI players are still to stubborn/stupid/lazy to persue anything but the familar paths. I got SCH to 47 in less than two weeks, never saw the dunes, never set foot in Yhoator Jungle to level. Didn't spend much time on Mandies in Yuthunga when I was there, it was mostly goblins.

Of course, it didn't hurt that I actually scoured the WotG zones for new options, which again, players are too lazy to check out. Thier loss.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

Actually Kitten, Str means nothing without Attack.

Base Damage = D + (aD) + fSTR(2) for normal attack which is modified by pDif.

Even with a 7 damage dagger at level 12, a Taru Blm with enough attack will hit for 1's.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

Also, Attack means nothing without STR. I think it would be more prudent to gear DNC for STR and Attack, with a modest amount of VIT, MND and accuracy gear, then eat sushi.

Sushi? I was talking about Valkurm Dunes...

[Lunaryn]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

A parser is simply a tool that looks through chat logs as the client dumps them to disk and gleans combat information from them. They don't require any kind of intimate messing around with the client itself (in fact, they theoretically don't even need to be running on the same computer; I use a very minimal parser written in Python that runs on my GNU/Linux server, having shared FFXI's log directory so that the other system can read it.

Logs are dumped into C:\Program Files\PlayOnline\SquareEnix\FINAL FANTASY XI\TEMP under the names 0.log through 19.log. The formatting is slightly odd but mostly it's the actual plain text of the chat log.

Do keep in mind the caveat that if you can't see it, neither can the parser, so you may need to adjust your chat filter settings to accommodate it.

[Silent Howler]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

After the level 1-10 grind with DNC/PUP (and boy what fun that was ) the main reason why I started using /MNK was because apparently everyone else was. =/ I was hoping that after looking through this thread I might learn why, but I honestly still don't see the reason except for Martial Arts.

Looking at DNC's dagger selection, Mercenary's Knife is the first one that catches my eye. I'll probably use that once I hit lvl 20, but whether hand-to-hand is better until then, I wouldn't know.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

Well, I've finally gotten around to pushing DNC up and, well, after pushing over 20, I decided to take /RNG and /NIN for a spin. Once for PT and for a fair bit of solo just now, /RNG would actually afford me the opportunity to eat meat while H2H would probably make me eat Jack-Os this level.

I actually have had less trouble with Ts single-weilding as /RNG than Dual Wielding as /NIN. I could definately see /NIN in higher levels where I might have to sub-tank or be bitch tank, but if I don't have to /NIN, I think /RNG is the better bet for now until DNC main obseletes the Accuracy bonus with its own at 30. I often found myself going below 200 TP as /NIN and /MNK, but seldom so as /RNG right now.

But really, the TP rate single wield with /SAM is what I'm really looking forward too.

[Lmnop]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

I'm sorry I didn't see this thread sooner, as I'm also sorry I'm not at home to back up my facts but...

I found the difference in skill from HtH was almost always covered up my HtH choices. For most levels, you're around -2 to -3 acc under Dagger. Most of the best HtH choices (I'm talking DPS, here) also have acc+3 or so on them. It always covers up the loss or comes close.

I didn't want to use HtH because I hated how everyone else was. I tried Blind Knife +1 when it became available and though it has superior DPS, that's a level where you're still using TP to WS. Indeed, HtH will always be obscene in the single-digit levels (I'm finding at least part of this is the fact that HtH base DMG has a static +3 added to it -- this means very little at higher levels but severely benefits HtH users at low levels where they're only getting 1-3 from Skill -- Of course, COMBO also plays a large part in its performance).

I created a chart that mapped DPS of HtH weapons based off of DNC skill-by-level (remembering that I couldn't just consult monk guides because the Skill level was different) and compared that to Daggers of-a-level. Before 20, /mnk always wins. Even when you find a Dagger that outclasses an HtH choice, 1-2 levels later the HtH skill makes an old weapon out-do the dagger. It's kinda disgusting.

However, @20, the -10% delay really upped the DPS of some daggers... some of the way. Even the Federation knives @25 become out-done by level 20 HtH weapons by around level 28, I believe. But at that point, the skill gap is 5 points, and dual feddy knives = +4 acc. At this point, I don't think you can argue that the tp gain is worth more than the higher DPS (this is around the time I started being sole healer for 4 others).

For my part, I started subbing NIN @20 because I was trio'ing at the time And I needed the best DPS possible. I believe HtH may have caught up around 23 or so, but shadows were @24 so I stuck with it (And I use my shadows very often - as much as the NIN main in our group).

/RNG is something I had considered, but since it'd only be worthwhile for my case from 20-23, and in those levels I didn't have an acc problem... yeah, didn't seem terribly worth it.

I typically eat Rice Dumplings, btw.

EDIT: I should note that there's an irritation to /nin: with dual feddy knives, you end up with 9% tp for your first attack round, whereas HtH will get you 10, and single wield will get you 5 (with another 5 very quick to come). Slight irritation when you want to get useful right away.

Single wielding a 180 delay dagger (such as said Federation Knife) with /sam will get you 5.5 tp (according to wiki) so for every 10th swing, you get a "free" 11th. I'm not sure how that compares to DW as I've never had a good grasp on why /nin with low delay daggers creates a tp advantage. I'm betting DW doesn't give more than ~3% faster tp, though -- opposed to /sam's 10%.

I might give /sam a spin next time I exp.