Why are so many BLMs MBing Freeze?

[riceburner4540]

all of my examples are for 1 blm in the party. i'll admit if you have 2 blms in the party and enough mp refresh power to keep going, then a double ancient burst might not be so bad; however, my stone III does ~360 without burn and absorb int, blizzaga II burst does ~750 without burn and absorb int, so for 263 mp, i can do 1110 damage (about as much as my freeze MB without burn and absorb int). this series of spells is especially good on toramas, since they hardly resist MB damage and are weak to stone so it would do probably close to, if not more than 1200 with burn and absorb int for 44 mp less. it should take less time to cast those two spells as well, compared to freeze.

well, i'm merely sharing my experience and opinions on ancient MBing, mainly on how its inferior . if you somehow find that ancient MBing works well for you, then more power to ya. outside of doing it for fun (outside of xp parties) or in very specific situations, you won't see me touching the stuff.

[Tikipiki]

Yeah

I agree with you wholeheartedly that ancient magics are wasteful of mana. I actually dissuade my parties from using ancient spells if I'm the only blm in the group and especially if I don't have a rdm to dispel for me. The detriment to any high dmg spell is that it costs a lot of mana to cast and if resisted or shelled the dmg drops by a percentage. Nothing makes a blm cry more then to find that he just spent 300-400 mana on a spell that does just a 1-1 dmg ratio on mb. Such mana could be much better spent on more mana conservative spells or waiting for that nifty dispel to hit. I'm at the point where I just cycle through level one -ga's and level II magics while waiting to burst with a -ga II. It's just more mana efficient and you'll get higher chains.

Additionally I haven't used double bursts since I got Blizzaga II since two blizzaga II's won't take hate off the ninja (he's good )and therefore much safer then ancient bursts. Since I'm leveling on raptors now, it's definitely not a wise idea for obvious reasons (see party setup above :sweat: ).

That being said, ancient MB's are lots of fun in the right parties. Just make sure that your fun isn't to the detriment of the experience gained by the party and you'll do fine.

Hehe what I would like to see is the ancient magic dmg cap grow as you level. That would be sweet! As it is right now they are kinda a novelty who's only real use is g5.

Tiki

[AtraposBLM]

I'm too lazy to quote examples of the garbage you're spewing Mithrael. Maybe if you bothered to actually read and comprehend what I said, then perhaps you'd understand.

First off - 18 seconds - casting time of freeze - was that so hard?

Second off - Blizzaga II with Ice Staff for me hit for ~800 damage, 790 damage minimum. Blizzaga II costs 175 mp. That's 4.5 damage per MP.

Freeze for 1,204 damage (which I never managed...burn never really increased damage, and parties with drk's generally needed me to be more efficient...and most drk's didn't even have it, or bother casting it) works out to be 3.9 damage per mp.

The difference in cost between Freeze and Blizzaga II is 132 mp. With that mp, you could drop a Stone III for 98 mp, doing roughly 370 damage, working out to be 3.7 damage per mp. This makes your total damage 1,170. You still have a bit more mp left, so say you toss an aspir in there, get 60 mp net back. Cast a blizzard II if you like - 77 mp for 280 damage (3.6 damage per mp). Total MP spent: 350 (290 thanks to aspir). Damage (1,450 total) per mp in that time: an even 5 damage per mp.

So, instead of most likely waiting around for melee's to set up the renkei, you cast 3 spells (Stone III, aspir, Blizzard II). Melee's get TP, you burst blizzaga II. Takes equal or less time than setting up and using Freeze, you end up using 17 less mp (+/-, depending on aspir, although with a dark staff I always got a minimum of 50 mp net back), and you do a conservative 246 more damage (my blizzard II's hit for 280+, sometimes as much as 310). So using less mp, you do more damage, saving the other mages mp from not having to cure, which lets you start your next chain sooner. Tell me again Mithrael, how is taking more time, and more MP to do less damage, better, exactly?

Oh, and why bother letting melee's dick around trying to kill it? Most times crabs put up a shell and you just see melee's whiffing a lot. Drain kill it:spin:


BTW Mithrael - when did I ever say Freeze was inadequate because of spells you get at lv70? Did I even mention the fact that I'm lv70? You can freeze burst all you want, I really don't care. But going around saying it's better leads to situations where NON-blm's (who don't have experience with why it's not as good) start yelling at you to use Freeze.



Oh, and my original point was that even though double bursting freeze might work out to be a few seconds faster, it's needless overkill --- Hey, remember when I said that? Whoopdeedo, you killed the mob 2.1 seconds faster than I did (which would only happen occasionally, when the melee's had TP from the start, which only rarely works out) - I saved myself MP, and did more damage than you anyways, so I probably killed the thing just as quickly as you. Less is more, when it comes to spending MP for damage. Also note - at lv50 you exp on what? I spent the time fighting beetles/spiders mainly...2400 damage was definately overkill. Hell, at lv57, I was partied with a lv58 blm, and we double bursted freeze and flood when we had lots of MP at the end of chains - not because it was more efficient, but because it was funny to see the mobs health drop from 90% to 0% (we one-shotted beetles in KRT every single time. My freeze was doing roughly 1,050 damage consistenly, his flood was doing roughly 1,150 damage - blame it on the weak skillchain). So yeah, I'm fairly sure the robber crabs in kuftal were dying out right.

Not only that, I was in a PLD/RNG/THF/RDM/WHM/BLM party in kuftal at ~56 (dinged 57 in that party, dinged 58 in the above party). Ranger side windered for 700+, thf viper bite'd for 600, and I bursted blizzaga II for 800. Again, even THEN it was overkill. We took the crabs from 75% to dead - most times a single Blizzard II was all that was required to kill it. Skillchain damage was somewhere in the 200-300's (I forget exact number). So once again, I highly doubt that 2,400 damage from bursts ALONE wouldn't one shot a crab, and one shot it by a good deal.


If you really want to talk about spells you get at 70, talk about Melten's Firaga III for 950 damage outside a burst (mine is somewhere in the upper 800's most of the time, but he has a fire staff ). My freeze hits for 800something outside of a burst...firaga III is less mp. The -ga's are *almost* always a better choice to burst with than anything else at ALL levels. The ONLY time it doesn't pay to -ga burst is when there's something you'd accidently hit. Every other time, every other level, -ga's will give you the most amount of damage per mp that you can possibly achieve.


Another note - putting all your "eggs" in one basket (meaning all your damage) is always generally a bad idea. What happens if one of the melees miss? What happens if the crab puts up a shell and your 1204 damage spells become 2 602 spells for 1204 damage total? In your example, that cuts 50% of your damage (and you're out 307 mp). In my example, It'll cut an 800 damage attack to 400 damage. That makes the total damage done by one blm 1,050 - not only is that "obviously more" than 400, it means the reduction in overall damage is only 28%, and you only wasted 175 mp - leaving you much more mp for regular nukes to make up the lost damage. Multiply that by 2.

2 blm's casting my way normally do a total of: 2,900 damage.
2 blm's casting freeze do a total of: 2,408 damage.
Blizzaga bursters get caught in a shell: 2,100 damage
2 blm's casting freeze get caught by shell: 1,204 damage

% difference normally: 16.9% (keep in mind the more damage comes from less MP)
% difference under shell: 42.6%
Who's more screwed?


NOT ONLY THAT - what happens if you get a link? Neither of the blm's casting freeze can respond - if they do, you mess up the damage and you're done. If they're bursting blizzaga II, delay the skill chain (you can't delay it with freeze or you miss burst and do slightly more than 50% damage), sleep the link, and continue. You'll end up with a weakened crab (if you're in kuftal, zone both blm's out, engage the next one, and continue. I got a few chain 6's that way) that'll die to a few nukes - nearly doubling your effective exp. You can say that the rdm can sleep them - what if it's resisted? What if the rdm subs whm and can't sleep them with the lack of elemental seal? Even if the rdm DOES sleep them, the double bursted blizzaga II would give you a major advantage to kill the next crab (which can be slept again) in even less time.



I'm done responding to your generally insulting post. I'm sorry if my original tone wasn't "helpful to the discussion". It's just that this discussion has been had so many times it's generally annoying to retype all of the above so arrogant people like yourself can see the light of day. I hope you take the time to actually read what I posted and realize that you're actually very wrong when you say:

Beside, I already showed it takes more MP to kill it without the freezebursts... Unless you have a specific Pre-Thundaga II/Aero III way to reproduce the same damage...

P.S. - you have more time than 18 seconds to get chain 5, so the kill speed advantage of freeze (which is already fairly slim) generally means nothing anyways.

Edited a little for clarity.

[Avlynn]

^ Some body needs some sleep.

[riceburner4540]

atrapos, i can verify that kuftal's robbers do indeed have roughly 3k hp.

[AtraposBLM]

so you're telling me that 75% of 3k isn't 2,250? Or that 2,400 is not greater than 2,250? If the weapon skills + skill chain damage + normal melee damage is less than 25% of the mobs health...then your melee's need to do more damage. Plus, 2,400 is 80% of the mobs health. You mean to tell me that 2400 damage isn't going to one shot a mob by the time they set the renkei up? I call shenanigans.

[Tikipiki]

Yep Yep

In a double burst situation I actually counted on the two ancients+ rdm spell+ double burst from ninja to kill the the crab post renkei with a 2-300 dmg margin of error. Slight overkill was better then using another 23 mana on a drain to kill the sucker.

Sweet dmg on the firaga III btw :p

Yes kuftal robbers have about 3k hp. I think Boyhada robbers have around 3.5 or so. Both get fried by ancients. Other things I've double bursted include goblin adds, skellies, those Beach bunnies in terrigan, and a raptor before I figured out how much of a pain it was to get diseased without a whm around. Lol even while being diseased downtime is something we don't have with normal pulling.

Hehe my question is: If I kill a crab with flare while it's in the ocean do I get boiled crabs for drops????? :p

Tiki

[Sadeira]

freeze sucks

blizzard 4 and blizzaga 3 all the way!

with me, blizzard 4 does only 30 less damage than freeze at a cost of 164 mp

blizzaga 3 is...practically freeze but aoe and without the silly cast time.

i'm never able to use either in an exp party though ; ; since everything at 70+ are weak to light type magic (wind, light, fire, and thunder) and light is the preferred renkei. either that or the exp party i get into is a nuker party (1 tank, blm blm blm (or smn exchanged with 1 blm), rdm, brd) and there's no renkei at all.

that said, i did use freeze to mb during my 50's and i hated it. as a hume, it was a complete waste of mp. i'd rather burst with water 3 or blizzard 2 than with freeze. but once i got blizzaga 2, it wasn't so bad. especially since i spent most of my time in the terrigan tunnel near the south entrance to sorrow valley. the only time ancient magic is really ever useful is in genkai 5.

[Mithrael]

First, let me fix a few misconception and restate things that have been ignored. We did this in Kuftal around lv.52-55, Boyahda about 54-58, and Teriggan 57-until one of us hit 60. Freeze didn't do 1204 at lv.50, it did 1100-something. It did 1204 about lv.56, and didn't really change up to lv.60. Blizzaga II wasn't available at lv.52, so whether Blizzaga II is more efficient is moot. So, from the spells you have for magic bursting up until lv.57: Watega II, not an acceptable solution on crabs, and Blizzard II, a bit weak. Thunder II and Stone III right after a Blizzard II burst still doesn't give you the same damage over time, even if it is more mana-efficient. Firaga II is resisted too often on crabs to be considered.
At lv.57 you get blizzaga II, though it's not safe for use in Boyahda. You get Aero III at lv.59, though by then you are probably not in Boyahda, so Blizzaga II finally becomes possible. Finally, as I said in the first post, the Melees must have TP at the beginning of the battle.

Not only that, I was in a PLD/RNG/THF/RDM/WHM/BLM party in kuftal at ~56 (dinged 57 in that party, dinged 58 in the above party). Ranger side windered for 700+, thf viper bite'd for 600, and I bursted blizzaga II for 800

I'm guessing you meant once you hit 57 you started bursting Blizzaga II. At lv.57, Kuftal robber crabs are tough (lv.60) to very tough (lv.63). The fact that you could kill them so fast is obvious. The highest level Robber Crabs in Kuftal stop being Incredibly Tough at lv.55. The renkei damage on them would be 50% of their life, and Blizzaga II could probably finish them off pretty easily. Were you able to chain#5 in this party? Chain #5 on a "Tough" con mob is pretty hard to do since you have so little time to do it. The reward isn't that hot anyway :/

Anyway, the point being that your alternate solution of Blizzaga II, Stone III, and Blizard II isn't even viable until lv.57, much less safe until you move to Teriggan.

But now that the misconceptions are out of the way, I'll talk about my Garbage.

First off - 18 seconds - casting time of freeze - was that so hard?

I think I pretty clearly explained the timing, :sweat:, But let's cover your example. The confusion is the comment "those 18 seconds where they were doing nothing." They're not doing "nothing" they're spending the same amount of time casting as you would with the other spells. Your proposed solution looks like this:

Blizzaga II (5.5) + Stone III (5.25) + Aspir (3) + Blizzard II (4.5) + Casting/Animation delay (4) = 22.5 seconds.

Drop the aspir, you have 5.5+5.25+4.5+3=18.25

The MP cost is 175+92+77=344 or 294 if you aspired for 60 (10mp of aspir pays for itself).

So even if your spells hit unresisted, it's still more time and possibly more MP. You do gain 200 damage by your figures, which is a good thing, no doubt about that. All of them are pretty close to one another for efficiency. Of course, the BLM can aspir on both setups, right? Anyway, are you really going to sit around and quabble about whether 13mp is a reason to totally and utterly say something is not worth it? I don't think it is.

What happens if one of the melees miss? What happens if the crab puts up a shell and your 1204 damage spells become 2 602 spells for 1204 damage total?

Well, misses suck, but they happen. You cry about it, then you try to kill the mob as fast as possible. Of course, if the melees miss, you probably have more than enough time to interrupt the spell if you actually pay attention.

As far as shell goes, this would be a good point, but I already explained what the importance of timing is. The enemy gains TP by melees hitting it (this is why renkei needs to happen immediately, though I already explained that). The mob also gains TP by you casting damaging spells on it. The chances of the mob gaining enough TP to cast Bubble Shield by you casting on it is greatly increased, meaning your additonal spells are more likely to be halved. You can note, it's nearly impossible for the crab to put up bubble shield that quickly when you are not nuking and the melees have only hit it once or twice. The only cases that this would be possible is if the crab used to be a BST pet who had TP stored up already, or if you had to zone and come back to fight the same crab. Probably you're not working on that crab for chain#5 anyway. Regardless, the chance that the crab will put up shell is less likely the faster you renkei, as your normal Stone III and Thunder II, etc. all give the mob TP.

Anyway, this isn't really a thread about Melee and Pulling strategy, but I'll explain really briefly why there should be no "waiting for melees to setup renkei." A good team-playing melee will know how to time renkeis so there is always one available for early in chain#5. Usually you either need to renkei really early in the chain#4 or not at all to make sure that #5 is ready to go. Here's the reason: You have 60 seconds from the end of chain#4 to kill the last mob to get chain#5, assuming it's IT. That includes pulling time, of course, maybe up to 20 seconds. TP gain on a DRK scythe is 12.6 tp per hit, which makes 8 hits to get 100%TP, Each swing takes 8-2/3 seconds. This means at 100% accuracy, you'd need 69-1/3 seconds to gain enough TP to be able to skillchain. If you've skillchained too late in the #4 battle, you will not be able to gain TP in time, and you've wasted free exp from chain#5. Pre-TP nerf, it was more possible to do the skillchain in one form or another more often, but it's just not now, so you have to lay out a plan and do the renkei on battles where you need the additional time. Melees who have to wait to setup the renkei in chain #5 aren't fighting with a clear plan. I think this problem happens more often in pick-up parties than in static or semi-static parties where you really get to learn the timing of your teammates.

Most times crabs put up a shell and you just see melee's whiffing a lot. Drain kill it

Crabs have no evasion increasing special abilities. They have shell, defense boost, and stoneskin.

But going around saying it's better leads to situations where NON-blm's (who don't have experience with why it's not as good) start yelling at you to use Freeze.

I'm re-reading to see where I said it was 'better.' I'm pretty sure all I said was that it's not really any more efficient casting 3 spells, especially if by your calculations, both are overkill. Anyone who yells at any other member of a party about something they 'should' be doing better is an ass, and should be booted by the leader.

NOT ONLY THAT - what happens if you get a link? Neither of the blm's casting freeze can respond - if they do, you mess up the damage and you're done. If they're bursting blizzaga II, delay the skill chain (you can't delay it with freeze or you miss burst and do slightly more than 50% damage), sleep the link, and continue. You'll end up with a weakened crab (if you're in kuftal, zone both blm's out, engage the next one, and continue. I got a few chain 6's that way) that'll die to a few nukes - nearly doubling your effective exp. You can say that the rdm can sleep them - what if it's resisted? What if the rdm subs whm and can't sleep them with the lack of elemental seal? Even if the rdm DOES sleep them, the double bursted blizzaga II would give you a major advantage to kill the next crab (which can be slept again) in even less time.

Several things wrong with this logic.
1.) AFAIK, You cannot get an exp-chain if you zone. Even if you zone out right after EXP Chain #1 and run right back in for #2, you start over, while your party gets the chain. I know this from pulling rangers in Monastic and in Davoi where I misjudge the zone-line and lose my EXP-Chain.
2.) How do you end up with a link in Boyahda, Kuftal or Teriggan? If you mean an add where the puller brings back 2 mobs on accident, then duh, change your strategy. You're probably going to sleep it before it's even back to the party. It's not like you start casting freeze before people are engaged in the battle... Aside from an unlucky pull, the camps are in aggro-free areas and crabs don't link, so I don't really see how this is an issue.
3.) If you burst Blizzaga II when there were links on you, you are totally screwed unless you're in kuftal. The PLD is already using all of his hate tools to keep the currently red crab from heading toward you, how is he going to control a crab that you've just done 400-500DMG to without even being engaged on it? Best he can do is flash it so it can't hit you for 10-15 seconds until the current crab is dead, since most hate tools do not add to enmity unless you've done an offensive action like hit, provoked, or cast flash on it. In any case, it's unlikely to keep both of the mobs off of you that early into a fight.
4.) If you have a link durring chain#5 you're probably really low on mp and not worrying about how to get chain#5, you're probably a lot more worried about MP-Conservation and survival.

I'm done responding to your generally insulting post.

As far as I can tell, there is only one person throwing out needless insults in the midst of the discussion.

in statics, it should be needless overkill. If it wasn't, your static was poorly chosen, and probably lacked firepower lol

If you had 2 black mages bursting freeze...you're very very silly.

I'm too lazy to quote examples of the garbage you're spewing Mithrael.

[conaim]

Mithrael - PLEASE STOP QUOTE OTHER, you are a DRK so STFU.

Freeze is a good toy for BLM at that level, but clearly it's not an efficient spell to use for EXP PT. Not if you looking for chain #4, #5.

The problems of Freeze:
- MP (307MP is 1/2 of the MP you have)
- Hate Control (You don't kill the mob in that hit, you are dead, Oh wait, PLD COVER ME, Oh sh*t, PLD just covered me last fight)
- You got resisted (crap, I just wasted the MP for this chain)

If your team can chain #4-5, and you guy can get 3500 exp to 4000 exp per hour, sure..... go for it. If not, do some thinking....

Been a good BLM doesn't meant you have to alway out damage everyone in a fight. It's all about hate control and MP conserving while the team archieve chain #4-5.

BLM 73 Ramuh

[AtraposBLM]

He just quotes things out of context, and neglects to quote the times where he does the same. He quotes 3 things that I said that weren't meant to be insulting at all, saying I'm the one throwing insults around, meanwhile he's the guy who said I should shut up about freeze just because I was lv70 and had better spells (and a few other nasty comments that could've easily been left out). He needs to learn to read, because he obviously is so set in what he thinks that he refuses to see otherwise. That's why I didn't bother to respond to the crap he said last.

[Mithrael]

My job being DRK has nothing to do with the thread. I have partied with anywhere from 2-4 BLM in every party since lv.15 as a DRK. One of the BLM is always in the same room as me. I'm quite familiar with all of the spells, their MP cost, their casting times, and the likelyhood of their resistance. You don't have to play the job to see how a good player works, you just have to be observant. Even if you're not all that observant, after over a year of playing, you tend to pick on certain things.

Other than that, I completely aggree with Conaim. The problem is it's expensive, you have to kill it (which wasn't a problem), and you have to do it early enough that the crab doesn't have TP for shell. If you can't get around those three problems, it's a total waste of time. I also agree that you need to do what you need to do in a party to get good exp. If that means only chaining up to #3 before a rest, fine.

-----

Atrapos, I certainly never intended to offend you by saying you're lv.70. I did not tell you to shut up because you're lv.70. I didn't even say that you had nothing valid to offer because you were 70. I said that it's obviously innefficient for you to burst Freeze now that you have access to better spells.

I'll break my rule briefly and quote myself, since this seems to be the thing that set you off:

I'm happy for you that you're lv.70 now and have more efficient spells that can do the same damage for less, but at lv.58, there is no alternative that land that kind of damage.

Did my tone suck a little? Yeah, I can see how it you took it that way. Sadly, the sarcasm that looks obvious in retrospect wasn't intended to be. I honestly meant I'm glad you don't have to screw around with it anymore. Regardless, I believe the statement holds true. Your spells at lv.70 are more damaging and time/mana efficient than the Ancient Magic spells at lv.50.

As far as me misrepresenting you, please PM me about anything you feel I've misrepresented of yours. I'll not only edit the post to fix it, I'll even publically appologize in the edit notes for my error. I absolutely did not mean to take your words out of context. I value freedom of thought and expression. I would rather set it straight than have you or anyone else believe I was trying to limit your expression by twisting your words.

I am not set in my ways, or blind to alternatives. That you seem to think so must be my fault for trying to show how one means is just as flawed and prone to error as the other. The only reason I ever even posted in the first place was to say that Freeze is AN option, and not the ONLY option. It happens to be an option that worked quite well for us when we had the right members and conditions (as laid out in my first post). Beyond all of that, that I said we only did it upon occasion when very specific criteria were met (and I did say this more than once...) has been ignored and somehow turned into evangelism for the one and only way to do things. This is not what I intended.

For every person in this thread who says it's not an option, there is another in this or one othe other threads on this board who says it was an option and worked for them. I hate dogmatic "it sucks," the ever popular one-word "No." post, or any other responses about how bad something is without any support. I show why in some cases it may not suck. Anyway, you always have options.

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by Mithrael
My job being DRK has nothing to do with the thread. I have partied with anywhere from 2-4 BLM in every party since lv.15 as a DRK. One of the BLM is always in the same room as me. I'm quite familiar with all of the spells, their MP cost, their casting times, and the likelyhood of their resistance. You don't have to play the job to see how a good player works, you just have to be observant. Even if you're not all that observant, after over a year of playing, you tend to pick on certain things.

Other than that, I completely aggree with Conaim. The problem is it's expensive, you have to kill it (which wasn't a problem), and you have to do it early enough that the crab doesn't have TP for shell. If you can't get around those three problems, it's a total waste of time. I also agree that you need to do what you need to do in a party to get good exp. If that means only chaining up to #3 before a rest, fine.

-----

Atrapos, I certainly never intended to offend you by saying you're lv.70. I did not tell you to shut up because you're lv.70. I didn't even say that you had nothing valid to offer because you were 70. I said that it's obviously innefficient for you to burst Freeze now that you have access to better spells.

I'll break my rule briefly and quote myself, since this seems to be the thing that set you off:

Did my tone suck a little? Yeah, I can see how it you took it that way. Sadly, the sarcasm that looks obvious in retrospect wasn't intended to be. I honestly meant I'm glad you don't have to screw around with it anymore. Regardless, I believe the statement holds true. Your spells at lv.70 are more damaging and time/mana efficient than the Ancient Magic spells at lv.50.

As far as me misrepresenting you, please PM me about anything you feel I've misrepresented of yours. I'll not only edit the post to fix it, I'll even publically appologize in the edit notes for my error. I absolutely did not mean to take your words out of context. I value freedom of thought and expression. I would rather set it straight than have you or anyone else believe I was trying to limit your expression by twisting your words.

I am not set in my ways, or blind to alternatives. That you seem to think so must be my fault for trying to show how one means is just as flawed and prone to error as the other. The only reason I ever even posted in the first place was to say that Freeze is AN option, and not the ONLY option. It happens to be an option that worked quite well for us when we had the right members and conditions (as laid out in my first post). Beyond all of that, that I said we only did it upon occasion when very specific criteria were met (and I did say this more than once...) has been ignored and somehow turned into evangelism for the one and only way to do things. This is not what I intended.

For every person in this thread who says it's not an option, there is another in this or one othe other threads on this board who says it was an option and worked for them. I hate dogmatic "it sucks," the ever popular one-word "No." post, or any other responses about how bad something is without any support. I show why in some cases it may not suck. Anyway, you always have options.

No need to apologize, reading that was enough for me to realize that I most likely erred just as much, if not more, than you did. Been a rough few weeks for me, so I've been a bit touchy...which translates to very little patience (especially with what I thought was an online pissing-contest). I thought you were getting on my case and being disrespectful, and as such, I was probably more disrespectful in my own post than I needed, and you can see where it went from there. Again, no apology neccessary, just leave it that we agree with each other, in a round about sort of way.

One final note - I have to say that I entirely misjudged your character Mithrael, and for that I apologize. It happens sometimes, and entirely too often, I'm too stubborn and/or arrogant to admit it. Apologies again if I offended you...

P.S. Whoever made the comment about Mithrael shouldn't talk because he's a drk is retarded. I'm a blm, but does that mean I can't watch people I've played with and surmise how a drk works? Does that mean I've never asked good drks questions, and bad drks the same things to see what's different? Seriously, this game isn't so complicated that observation can't teach you at least the basics if you're not inept. I guarentee that ANYONE who's paid attention to what other people in their party do could play any of those characters just as well as the person playing it (or at least just as well as an average person of that job). That's why you should never discount somebody's opinion just because it's a coming from a different job.

[navpops]

this pretty much sums up mah thoughts on this

[AtraposBLM]

way to use someone else's shit to make your point. Highly original. Oh, and using "mah" really makes you stand out as someone who is definately "cool".