Why are so many BLMs MBing Freeze?

[Roldarin]

Originally posted by Zafron
I was in a Beetle group recently where the skill chain was

Vorpal Scythe > SATA+Viper Bite > Freeze

We had no problems chaining mobs and the xp was great. We never had to wait on BLM mp. The bottleneck in that group(as seems to be the case in most groups i'm with these days) was PLD mp.

This was my experience the few groups I"ve been in where the BLM used it (same BLM, different pts).

[tnt118]

Originally posted by Yuanlung



Except hate disspates over time, and your tanks needs time to regain hate. By spreading out the damage over time, you allow your hate to slowly decrease, while letting your tank to regain more hate.

A single burst of 1100 dmg that doesn't kill the monster instantly is going to give you the monster's undevided attention for while.

I thought that getting hit was the more direct way of getting rid of hate .. and while 500+500 15 seconds later isn't *quite* as much hate as a one-shot of 1000, it's close enough that it might as well be.

I have some friends that I PT with on a fairly regular basis. In our last PT, with a PLD tank, my BLM friend got hate after bursting ancient magic once the entire night -- once! Always unresisted by the way, doing 1050-1150 in damage each time. As a guess he did that 50 times, and I'd estimate half the time it didn't kill the mob. So for the PLD to lose hate only 1 in 25 times wasn't a big deal.

I think it comes down to this: In a good group (and I mean a truely good group) you can do a lot of things, like bursting with AM, to your benefit that you simply can't pull off in a normal "good" group (even one that pulls in 4k/hour). With the right PT combination, and equipment worth investing in (both my whm and blm friends have dark staff, for example) bursting with AM is often the smartest choice.

[riceburner4540]

first of all, AM burst = 1100 in my example. blizzaga II burst + blizzard II x 2 = 1310 damage. more efficient.

I thought that getting hit was the more direct way of getting rid of hate

its a more direct way, but you don't want yourself getting hit mainly because of how inefficient it is for the whm to cure you. spreading a blizzaga II + 2x blizzard II over say...40 seconds is much better than an ancient MB.

Most places that you lvl you can't use Blizzaga II. I mean it kind of becomes suicide. Only place I can think of off the top of my head that it can be used is cape terrigan. Definately can't use it in Boyahada or in Nest.

i used waterga burst on the helm beetles in nest. boyahda however, you can't -ga burst at all.

chambers beetles in garlaige to 52
helm beetles in crawler's to 53-54
kuftal's robber crabs to 56
lizards in terrigan to 57-58
crabs in terrigan or crabs + goblins in gustav til 60

there you go, from 50-60 in places where you can -ga safely.

Most mobs in that lvl range only have about 1500-2000 HP. Hmm... let's see

most people will be fighting chamber beetles when they hit 50. if i recall correctly, my first AM burst did 1050 on them (it was a novelty thing...). it took approximately 40% of it's hp so i can assure you they have much more than 1500. probably close to 2500. mid 50 mobs have ~3k hp.

I think it comes down to this: In a good group (and I mean a truely good group) you can do a lot of things, like bursting with AM, to your benefit that you simply can't pull off in a normal "good" group (even one that pulls in 4k/hour). With the right PT combination, and equipment worth investing in (both my whm and blm friends have dark staff, for example) bursting with AM is often the smartest choice.

ancient MBing may look like a good choice, but consider this. no matter how you kill a mob, the typical battle will always last between 1 and 1 1/2 minutes, slightly shorter for chain 5+. this doesn't change whether you're casting ancient MB or not...if you're bursting ancients, the mob usually dies after your ancient. if you're nuking with regular nukes and MBing with a powerful -ga, it usually dies after the -ga. for example, while waiting for melee's tp to build, you can do 2 blizzard IIs for 550-600 damage total. by then, the melee's tp will be built up and a blizzaga II MB will finish off the mob. total damage, 1300 or so from spells. now if you were going to do an ancient MB, you sit there and wait for melee's tp to build up. once it does, you MB for 1100 and hope the mob dies after, or shortly after. slightly less mp usage (22, in my example), but you do 200-300 less damage.

early to mid 50s, freeze bursting *might* be ok but i see absolutely no excuse for continuing to do so once you get blizzaga II.

[Navia]

As a ninja tank I think ancient magic burst works very well, elemental resist lowering with ninjitsu guarantees good damage.
The extra coordination needed to get the timing correct makes the skillchain and resulting bursts much more satisfying.
BLM like to see 4 digit damage so I am more than willing to accomodate them.

[riceburner4540]

usually with the bursts, as long as they are the correct element, you won't even need to lower resistances. and despite the satisfaction you may get from pulling off a skillchain + ancient MB, i'd expect the novelty to wear off a couple bursts in. being able to see 4 digit damage in 1 shot is not a good reason for ancient MBing. do it a couple times to see that you can do it and move on to more efficient killing methods.

edit: also, since crabs are very popular for leveling up on, you will undoubtedly experience their annoying bubble curtain (shell effect). it halves magic damage. you can dispel it but these bastards are smart. they often throw up shell seconds before your magic burst, not enough time to get dispel off. i've experienced this many, many, many times. a half-resisted ancient burst is a HUGE waste. i've also encountered many beastmen who do the same thing...they use def up skills or protect before skillchains and shell before MBs.

[Bamce Sylph]

i made the joke while leveling my sam in kazham, that the skillchain was tachi: enpie> dream flower because it happened like 4 times in a row

[Ungerpurr]

Bamce, that's probably the funniest thing I've read on these boards the past week. ^^

I'm of the opinion that ancient MB is rarely the most efficient way to kill something. Hell, I've been in a group with no distortion skillchain, so we MBed firaga 2 (yes, in kuftal, but it was at level 54/55, only had 1 partial resist the whole time, blm had ice staff, 606-610 damage).

If ancient magic had some sort of resist adjustment, so that it was much harder to resist, it might be worthwhile on mobs that you otherwise might have trouble nuking. But, it doesn't, it has subpar efficiency. As mentioned above, in a group with a samurai, ancient MB is a crime, as there should be skillchains flying every which way, and a blm waiting to burst on only one of them is just...inefficient.

Maybe...if you're in a group with only one skillchain...and you're too low of level to be fighting where you are (say...53 in boyahda, or 51 in kuftal)...and you don't have ice staff...maybe...then I could see ancient magic burst. In that situation, magic burst would be your only chance to land a nuke for full damage, so you want to make it count. In that case, ancient MB could make a bad situation better.

[EtRNaL168]

umm... Freeze is NOT useless if you are in a good static party. It works very very well if you dont have dumb damage dealers.

[riceburner4540]

it isn't useless, it is just inefficient and inferior

[AtraposBLM]

in statics, it should be needless overkill. If it wasn't, your static was poorly chosen, and probably lacked firepower lol

[Mithrael]

in statics, it should be needless overkill. If it wasn't, your static was poorly chosen, and probably lacked firepower lol

first of all, AM burst = 1100 in my example. blizzaga II burst + blizzard II x 2 = 1310 damage. more efficient.

In our static, when we did this which was only on chain#5 if the BLM had enough MP, the battle pretty much went like this.

1.) Pull
2.) PLD Provoke, flash, bash, sentinel, whatever else he can.
3.) I Absorb-INT, mages do INT down Elemental Enfeeble
4.) I Souleater
5.) I Start Renkei, Vorpal Scythe -> Seraph Blade (the fact that the PLD WS is so weak is not important for reasons to follow)
6.) 2xBLM MB Freeze (1204 dmg each), RDM MB Blizzard II (can't remember... 180?), I MB Blizzard (90 dmg)
7.) Assuming the enemy has even any HP left, it's generally killed by one hit with souleater up, or one level 2 elemental spell.

Battle time: 35-40 seconds.

Not enough firepower? Just as efficient as casting 3 spells which will take 90 seconds? Nah.

also, since crabs are very popular for leveling up on, you will undoubtedly experience their annoying bubble curtain (shell effect). it halves magic damage. you can dispel it but these bastards are smart. they often throw up shell seconds before your magic burst, not enough time to get dispel off.

Yeah, the only way to make this work is to kill it before it has enough TP to do that. So you have to Skillchain before you really start hitting it.

[PedaTeda]

which stil doesnt work sometimes :p

from what ive read....... not using freeze is much better ^^

[AtraposBLM]

If you had 2 black mages bursting freeze...you're very very silly. Also, I highly doubt that they were pulling 1200 damage freezes. If they were, then both of them had ice staves, and blizzaga II would've worked out much better. But at lv50, if 2400 damage doesn't out right kill a mob...then you're not leveling on the same robber crabs as I was. oh, and in those 18 seconds where they were doing nothing, they could've landed 1-2 spells each, and both still had time to burst with blizzaga II. Same damage, less mp to heal back after the mob dies.

[Mithrael]

If you had 2 black mages bursting freeze...you're very very silly.

Your tone as of late on this board does not contribute much to the discussions. Surely by now you realize that there are multiple styles of gameplay. I don't see how consistently achieving a chain that you are striving for can be construed as silly, or unecessary. Or perhaps, just maybe, the game is about haveing fun and occasionally doing something extraordinary. Then again... nah. Why do something more than one way when somebody else can tell you the only way to do it ahead of time! I'm happy for you that you're lv.70 now and have more efficient spells that can do the same damage for less, but at lv.58, there is no alternative that land that kind of damage.

BTW, Bursting Blizzaga II, followed by Stone III and Thunder II (to equal about 1300-1400 dmg) costs 175 + 92 + 86 = 353MP, which is obviously more than 307. The casting time is 5.5 + 5.25 + 4.75 = 15.5s, plus maybe 2-3 seconds for pause between spells and animation.

Also, I highly doubt that they were pulling 1200 damage freezes. If they were, then both of them had ice staves, and blizzaga II would've worked out much better.

Yes, they do. And the damage from Freeze is exactly 1204 with Absorb-INT and whichever elemental enfeeble lowers INT, I can't remember. They consistently both landed 1204, not just once or twice. Blizzaga II lands for 780-something, I can't remember the number. 780-something is certainly respectable, but unless they can pop another 500+dmg spell pretty quickly, it doesn't match the efficiency of time. In both cases, the key to the BLMs higher damage than you apparently expect is a DRK successfully landing Absorb-INT before the magicburst. It generally gives a 10% boost to magicbursting damage + a 2-3% boost from the elemental enfeeble. Perhaps Hyoton would help too, I'm not sure if that increases damage or just reduces the chance of resist.

And yeah, as you already know, Freeze can be burst for more than 1200 dmg. You even commented on the thread about how you should try it on Robber Crabs.

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42663

But at lv50, if 2400 damage doesn't out right kill a mob...then you're not leveling on the same robber crabs as I was.

2400 does not outright kill a mob, but 500+200+1204+1204+180+90=3387 comes damned close. These crabs have somewhere around 3500hp. Not hard to see how this works, is it? Generally it take a swing or two at most to finish it off.

[QUOTE]oh, and in those 18 seconds where they were doing nothing, they could've landed 1-2 spells each, and both still had time to burst with blizzaga II. Same damage, less mp to heal back after the mob dies.[QUOTE]
What 18 seconds where they were doing nothing? If you mean the beginning of the battle, they were casting elemental enfeebles and aspiring to reduce the next sitting time. BLM regain MP so fast, and we generally start next chain before BLM are at full anyway, so I still don't see a real reason to not do it. Beside, I already showed it takes more MP to kill it without the freezebursts... Unless you have a specific Pre-Thundaga II/Aero III way to reproduce the same damage...

[Tikipiki]

First off, if you had Blizzaga II in kuftal to use on robber crabs there, you need a better party. Sorry, but it's true since they arne't good xp at that level, therefore I think you misspoke :p

Secondly, Freeze and Burst are mana inefficent spells that cost a lot of mana and if not magic bursted are pretty much mana sinks. That being said, they are insanely fun if the party works together to kill those nasty crabs My spt consists of nin, sam, brd, rdm, myself, and a sixth that we usually pick up. Only when we had another blm would we try ancient spells. Double bursted freeze in Kuftal takes a crab from 85-90% to zero IF the brd debuffs ice, and the rdm dispels the mob immediately after the distortion renkei goes off. Crabs have a nasty tendency to bubble curtain after the renkei so dispel is needed. Provided everything goes right, any crab in kuftal will be dead after one renkei. In boyhada tree, use burst with a Frag renkei. You have to wait till the crab is at 80% or lower to try. Same principle applies. Blizzaga II burst would be nice at this stage, but I didn't really have the camp space to successfully try it. For some added fun use burn before you start the ancient.

BTW this works for this party because the brd can take over healing if needs be, the nin and sam gain tp fast, and with ballad I+II and refresh we have plenty of mana to keep the chains going. Even then if the blms were less then half mp we just finished out the crabs normally. Double bursts are much nicer for ending chain 5 because it's quick. Just make sure you have the mob to a point where the double burst should kill it or else be prepared to be a cloth wearing tank

Tiki